Dipping FCS plugs

Had problems with internet recently and have missed this but thought I’d throw in my comments.

Teaching boatbuilding is fun. Health and safety is essential but can be dull. If I ever found a student dipping ANYTHING in MEKP he’ be in deep shit, I’d wonder if my lectures were ever taken seriously and the powers above me would probably fire me and close the centre down.

MEKP is dangerous as already widely stated, it would stuff the mix ratios with the resin and dipping must be bad advice.

I also have been messing with composites for a long time and just wanted to add another voice to those already spoken. MEKP should be mixed with resin and not messed with in any other way.

Having said that I will try the technique and test the results in the college machine to see just how good a bond results…

Rik

Beware those who speak from a profound depth of ignorance.

Rik,

I think you hit the nail on the head as far as this approach by FCS goes when you say,

“Beware those who speak from a profound depth of ignorance.”

MEKP was meant to be used for one thing and one thing only…this is bad advice on FCS’s part, as far as I can see… at least I know of no other reason for its existence.

Pete

Hello All-

As promised, here is some more info on this MEKP issue.

After this issue was raised on Swaylocks, we did pull all communication on the subject off of our website and all literature from us going forward will not suggest the use of MEKP (the power of Swaylocks strikes again!) We agree that it was an oversight on our part, but primarily from a safety and communication standpoint. We assumed people would follow the safety precautions involved with using MEKP, but in reality we cannot 100% rely on everyone following the safety precautions that should be practiced when using MEKP, therefore we felt it was in our best interest not to move forward with this communication.

However, we absolutely do stand behind the said bonding / strength benefits that MEKP can add to an FCS install with our new X-2 plugs. I have further consulted our product development team and they have conducted even more testing recently that conclusively backs up this claim.

Now please keep in mind that the bonding of our new X-2 plugs to polyester resin is equal to our previous P-2 (Polycarbonate) plugs, which to date has not presented a bonding issue and the X-2 plugs alone are already much stronger than any material plugs we’ve ever used. During our testing of the X-2, we were experimenting and looking for ways to make the bond strength even better for extreme applications such as tow-in or big wave boards where all the extra strength you can get is desired. As crazy as it sounds, the best way we found to increase that bond strength was by lightly brushing / coating the X-2 plugs with MEKP prior to the normal install.

The original testing with MEKP was done last year and was conclusive. Just recently we tested this method again and it once again conclusively proved to be a benefit.

This testing was conducted in normal 4oz lamination, PU / Polyester boards. The board is clamped down and a torque wrench is used to remove the plugs (mimic an impact). Here are pictures of the board clamped and the torque wrench used to remove the plugs.

In addition, here is a video link showing how the plugs are actually removed from the board with the torque wrench. http://i271.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid271.photobucket.com/albums/jj151/ron2long/MOV03542.flv

The following batch of photos are from our first MEKP testing we did last year and shows what typically happens with and without MEKP being applied prior to install.

Without MEKP:

With MEKP:

Plug after it has been hammered, squeezed and chiseled:

(As you can see, the X-2 plugs with MEKP applied have bonded extremely well. After hammering, chiseling and squeezing with tools, very little resin was able to be removed.)

This next batch of photos are from our more recent testing and once again show the bonding benefits.

Without MEKP:

With MEKP:

The photos are a little rough, but hopefully they are good enough for you guys.

So you see it does work, but we want anyone who decides to use this method to use every precaution and all protection available when using MEKP. This is absolutely necessary!! We won’t be actively pushing this method going forward, but it is there if someone wants to try / test it for themselves and we are confident it works.

We want to apologize for the confusion this issue has caused and hopefully this will clear things up. We misjudged and delivered this message initially without enough information being provided. We live and we learn.

We also hope this issue highlights that we do indeed do extensive testing and R&D and we aren’t just throwing out stuff on a wing and a prayer!

Best regards,

Ron

Hey Ron -

well, thanks for following up. I did some research of my own and actually found a discussion where guys building computer cases used MEKP as a (dangerous) cement for Lexan and sheet acrylic… so in addition to being a catalyst it appears that it may have a secondary use as a (dangerous) cement for some plastics. This is the only explanation I can see for the results you’ve found.

However, if its dangerous enough to pull the references off your (FCS) web page it seems to me that you’re doing a public disservice by leaving the information posted here, where a google search will pull it up, and probably by non-professionals - those most likely to endanger themselves.

So - now that you’ve proved your point, maybe the information isn’t needed anymore?

Why is it more dangerous to paint a piece of plastic with the stuff, then it is to dump it into a cup of resin?

for the same reason painters wear hats, and use lots of drop cloths and masking tape - painting tends to get stuff everywhere. Ever seen a painter or his clothes at the end of the day?

I respectfully disagree that the information should be deleted. Ron states in bold that one should use every precaution when using MEKP. I doubt that I’ll try it myself, but showing testing and improved bond could be helpful information for an installer.

My 2 cents, mostly follow-up:

I gotta admit I thought it was a typo (the advice to dip in MEKP). I was wrong.

I know FCS has test equipment more sophisticated than a torque wrench, but I guess you guys don’t want pics

of that equipment floating around on the 'net. I just want the crew on here to know that next time I reference

some testing that FCS has done, they understand the validity of those tests and the equipment used to perform

them. No doubt that the torque wrench was sufficient, sometimes simple is best.

FWIW, I think your post should stay up, at least long enough to let all interested parties have a look. If you build

surfboards you’re probably going to handle MEKP anyway and know the precautions.

Quote:

for the same reason painters wear hats, and use lots of drop cloths and masking tape - painting tends to get stuff everywhere. Ever seen a painter or his clothes at the end of the day?

So do people who blend stuff.

I just don’t see a big safety hazard difference between pouring the stuff into resin, and putting some on a piece of plastic, as long as you are taking sufficient safety precautions. But I have only made a few boards, so what do I know…

to my way of thinking, if FCS isn’t willing to put this information on their own web page (and in fact has already removed it - can anyone say “liability”?) then I don’t think they should be posting it here.

Can’t argue with that.

I have a pint of the stuff in my garage. What special precautions should I take with it, that I don’t have to with other surf chemicals… like resin?

How should it be stored?

I wear a mask, goggles, gloves, long sleeves, and am about to start wearing coveralls.

Organic respirator, goggles, gloves and overalls is my understanding of it.

Mostly the same precautions as with other chemicals - but the consequences tend to be more serious…note that MEKP doesn’t like sunlight, heat, or metals (even rust), burns “violently” and can actually explode, eg. if mixed with an accelerator like cobalt.

Plenty of info about MEKP on the internet - here’s an example http://www.compositesaustralia.com.au/methyl.htm

(this quote hits the nail on the head:)

“since MEKP must start a chemical reaction within the resin it must be a reactive compound. This makes it one of the most hazardous materials in the composites industry, since it can react with other materials causing a fire or with the human body resulting in chemical burns.”

but just to make it convenient for everybody and in the interests of safety here’s another version:

STORAGE

• Storage at 80°F (THAT’S ABOUT 26° C) or below is recommended. Storage below 70°F is recommended for maximum shelf life.

• Store in original containers away from flammables and all sources of heat, sparks, or flames; out of direct sunlight; and away from cobalt naphthenate, other promoters, accelerators, oxidizing or reducing agents and strong acids or bases.

• Leaking containers – Remove and isolate in a safe area. Re-package or dispose immediately (see spills).

• Never store in refrigerators containing food and/or beverages.

• Consult National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) Code 432 and/or local regulatory agencies.

• Rotate stock, use oldest date first.

HANDLING

• Inform all personnel of procedures for safe handling and review MSDS with them.

• Remove from storage area only the amount needed for one shift.

• Wear safety glasses or goggles and chemical resistant gloves.

• Keep away from heat, flames, and sparks.

• Avoid breathing vapors.

• Dilution is not recommended.

• Never add peroxides directly to promoters or vice-versa, violent decomposition can occur.

• Prevent contamination such as contact with dust, over spray, wood, and combustible material.

• Avoid contact with materials other than polyethylene, polypropylene, Teflon®, Tygon®, or similar materials, glass or glass-lined steel, and 304 or 316 stainless steel or equivalent.

FIRST AID

• EYES – Flush immediately with large amounts of fresh water and continue washing for at least 15 minutes. Medical attention is needed.

• SKIN – Wash with soap and water.

• INGESTION – Administer large amounts of milk or water and call a physician immediately. Do not induce vomiting. As an aid to the physician, suggest calling your local Poison Control Center.

SPILLS

• Clean up immediately by absorbing with inert material – vermiculite or sand.

• After absorbing, moderately wet immediately with water and place in a clean plastic bag inside a plastic pail.

• Dispose of immediately in accordance with local, state, and federal regulations.

NOTE: Spilled peroxides, if not immediately cleaned up, can become contaminated and ignite or decompose in a hazardous, violent manner.

FIRE

• Peroxides ignite readily and burn vigorously with acceleration.

• Use water from a safe distance – preferably with a water-fog nozzle.

• For very small fires, an extinguisher with carbon dioxide, foam, or dry chemical may be effective.

• In case of fire in or near a storage area, cool stored containers with water spray.

I’d like to thank FCS for their follow-up PM about dipping plugs in MEKP.

Their research is commendable. However it raises another question.

What is the MEKP doing to the surface of the plug that so improves the adhesion? Is it etching the surface or being adsorbed into it? Does it change the chemical structure of the plug’s surface? More science is required and then maybe a more user friendly method can be developed.

Sounds like a student degree project, any takers?

i said it earlyer& i will say it again this sort of information can only lead to f c s

being liable for future health problems

& if it stays here on sways they to could be liable

                so why the moderators leave this sort of info here i do not know 

darker than dark

Yeah Darkside you may be right about liability but I’d still like to know the answer so we can find an alternative.

Quote:

i said it earlyer& i will say it again this sort of information can only lead to f c s

being liable for future health problems

& if it stays here on sways they to could be liable

so why the moderators leave this sort of info here i do not know

darker than dark

Maybe I believe in a person being responsible for their own course of action, so I could well be wrong as to liability. Ron doesn’t state in this thread that FCS recommends using MEKP, he states that FCS stands behind their assertion that it improves bond. Anyone that burns themselves with a chemical because they don’t take proper safety precautions is going to have a hard time in court proving liability based on another party’s claim of increased bond strength.

As Forest Gump’s mother would say,“Stupid is as Stupid does”.

H

It should be stored is a flame-proof, metal ,lockable container…of some kind…Also…separate your chemicals…NEVER !!! store them together !

H

OK Rik, forget the science. everybody’s hung-up on health and Safety. Nothing wrong with that but no progress either.

Oh hell, I’ve started mailing myself…things must be getting desperate.

Keep it up Rik.

cheers

Rik…