Do Surfboard Manufacturers Rip Themselves Off?

General Discussion
41
Quote:

This is a v interesting thread…specially given the economic circumstances

Since current (Oct. 2008) economic circumstances are fluctuating like a bell on a belly dancers waist, it’s hard to say what effect they will have on board sales. My personal guess is that it will be after Christmas before real effects to day-to-day life will start to be felt. The people who have been getting new boards every 2-3 months - which I think is totally absurd for all but perhaps the top 5-10% of surfers (judged by performance and not $$$)- they may have to cut back. My guess is that will impact the surfboard mills rather than the craftspeople.

Sporting goods are somewhat recession-proof, especially the ones that last (durability). Surfing sometimes can seem like that island of plastic crap floating out in the Pacific - awash in uselss junk.

The personal credit situation is a boot that hasn’t dropped yet and is hardly spoken of in the general media, but it’s out there. The credit card is the mother of impulse purchasing. Jobs are drying up, equity is endangered for homeowners, expenses are rising (except for gas at the moment)…the manufacturers and businesses who will make it through a potential rough section looming up will be the ones offering quality product and service…to the customer.

42

Before I started making boards, I thought they were expensive, but not obscenely so. I was never “shocked” at the price of boards, but a new board was definitely considered a “luxury” item. Used boards were more in my budget.

However, now that I’m making my own and selling a few here and there, I agree with the sentiment of this thread. We definitely do not charge what we should for our time. I think our babysitter makes more per hour than I do in building boards… :slight_smile: LOL

43

not exactly along the lines of this thread but…I stopped shaping when clark in melbourne closed their doors. I had been shaping small time since about 1969 ( I confess to be one who stripped a greg noll log back then to make a shorter board). Its in my blood, its art. The blending of rails, decks, flats and concaves, the inlays of wood, and/or nose, tail blocks culminating in the finished piece… its personal achievment, its good for the soul. And every new board completed, spurs new ideas, new projects. I’ll shape again even if its pine 2x4’s from lumber store glued together. I suppose I’m saying that for many of us there is more than financial reasons for shaping/design.

44

Hijack! Actually I think what you are describing is what the Sways general discussion is all about. So maybe this post would be better of in the industry talk section. Or maybe not. Now I’ve hijacked my own post. Clever.

45

“Manufacturers” that do custom work ( people like Larry Mayo, Randy Richenberg, o’Hare) can pretty much name their price…they have stood the test of time, and they do rip themselves off. Others that are popping out throwaways flood the market with boards that will not perform for the region they are sold in and depend on first time one and only buyers to keep their business going. the WOW factor thrives (why would someone in Florida heat and sun buy a board with a dark colored deck?) with all the graphics, etc. and the boards sell. These guys are businessmen…not in it for the “craft” and screwing the unknowledgeable. These boards get beat up in 2 ft chop here in Florida and the customer spent $500 on it (my neighbor has one in her shed hardly used but beat, soon to wind up in the trash and definitly NOT a return customer) . But really, which mfg is ripping themselves off? Not the one who sleeps at night. What was it jim the genius used to always post…something about “do the best job possible”?

46

Just two thoughts from someone not in the buisness, but surfing for 35 years.

In all those years of ordering boards, and buying them off the rack, I never once had a shaper listen to what I told them I wanted. I have never had a shaper allow me in the room when he shapes it to make sure I got what I wanted. The shaper is short sighted in that he wants to make his money as quickly as possible, which means kicking out the board as quickly as possible. He forgets about return business. Also, what is forgotten is that if you take a look around in the water, at least half the surfers are over age 30, are professionals, and DO have some real MONEY to spend. I know, I’m one of them. I’ve gone so far as to offer the shaper an extra hundred dollars just to watch the board being made. Nobody seems to have clued in that the same guy who has $5,000.00 for a week in some exotic island (where he might just get skunked) would gladly pay the extra for a board that was made just for him.

I’m lucky enough that after 30 years in the woodworking trades, and already owning every tool I could need to make boards for myself, I’m finally able to get the boards I want. But when I think about the cost in lost wages that I’m spending making my own boards, I could scream! I would be hundreds of dollars ahead of the game if I could pay $1,000.00 for the board and just work a little over-time!

This is a long way to go about saying that the pro shapers need to go overboard on the customer service. They need to push the uniqueness of their boards. Create name recognition not by giving boards to the kids in the contests, but by going up to every surfer that drives to the beach in a Range Rover and offering their special service. Get the shaping bay out of some dark hole in some commercial district and put it out front with windows where people could watch it being made. There are enough of us out there willing to pay! Just like the woman who is willing to pay $1,000.00 for a single dress, her husband would pay the same for that special board that he could show to all his other rich friends!

Second point is to all the guys giving out their trade secrets on Swaylock’s- WHAT THE F**K ARE YOU THINKING!!! Unless you are making money from someone gaining this information, you are slitting your own throat. I can see why Greg tells us about all the great things you can do with RR Epoxy - it’s because he makes a buck on every bottle he sells! Again I would have gladly paid for the knowledge that is given out for free. I know a guy in Malibu who charges $150.00 an hour to teach surfing to rich housewives. There is a ton of money out there waiting to be wasted! How about letting the guy design his own logo, and charging extra for being involved? Have you seen those stores where the little mommys take their kids and pay $20.00 to let the kid make a clay mug with his own finger paint? How about birthday glassing parties, where all the little brats get to do the artwork on their own board. It could even be little souvineer boards. Forgive my bluntness, but you will never make a good living doing what you could train your replacement to do in a week.

You guys need to think more like a business, and less like an art.

47

Not everyone cares about money. People who are slaves to money are almost as pathetic as a junkie. Im not having a go at you, its just that some of the small shapers ( and people in general )would rather have a bit less money, and more freedom to go surf when they want, spend time with their kids ( i feel more sorry for rich kids than ppor kids in many ways ) etc.

My. 05 cents.

Cheers

48

hi Everysurfer. you have obviously never ordered a board off me! i have the glass bowl shaping bay in my shop on the main highway… i like surfing with my customers… see this…

http://www.diversesurf.com.au/premium/premium.php

49

couldnt agree MORE

51
Quote:

Just two thoughts from someone not in the buisness, but surfing for 35 years.

In all those years of ordering boards, and buying them off the rack, I never once had a shaper listen to what I told them I wanted. I have never had a shaper allow me in the room when he shapes it to make sure I got what I wanted. The shaper is short sighted in that he wants to make his money as quickly as possible, which means kicking out the board as quickly as possible. He forgets about return business. Also, what is forgotten is that if you take a look around in the water, at least half the surfers are over age 30, are professionals, and DO have some real MONEY to spend. I know, I’m one of them. I’ve gone so far as to offer the shaper an extra hundred dollars just to watch the board being made. Nobody seems to have clued in that the same guy who has $5,000.00 for a week in some exotic island (where he might just get skunked) would gladly pay the extra for a board that was made just for him.

I’m lucky enough that after 30 years in the woodworking trades, and already owning every tool I could need to make boards for myself, I’m finally able to get the boards I want. But when I think about the cost in lost wages that I’m spending making my own boards, I could scream! I would be hundreds of dollars ahead of the game if I could pay $1,000.00 for the board and just work a little over-time!

This is a long way to go about saying that the pro shapers need to go overboard on the customer service. They need to push the uniqueness of their boards. Create name recognition not by giving boards to the kids in the contests, but by going up to every surfer that drives to the beach in a Range Rover and offering their special service. Get the shaping bay out of some dark hole in some commercial district and put it out front with windows where people could watch it being made. There are enough of us out there willing to pay! Just like the woman who is willing to pay $1,000.00 for a single dress, her husband would pay the same for that special board that he could show to all his other rich friends!

Second point is to all the guys giving out their trade secrets on Swaylock’s- WHAT THE F**K ARE YOU THINKING!!! Unless you are making money from someone gaining this information, you are slitting your own throat. I can see why Greg tells us about all the great things you can do with RR Epoxy - it’s because he makes a buck on every bottle he sells! Again I would have gladly paid for the knowledge that is given out for free. I know a guy in Malibu who charges $150.00 an hour to teach surfing to rich housewives. There is a ton of money out there waiting to be wasted! How about letting the guy design his own logo, and charging extra for being involved? Have you seen those stores where the little mommys take their kids and pay $20.00 to let the kid make a clay mug with his own finger paint? How about birthday glassing parties, where all the little brats get to do the artwork on their own board. It could even be little souvineer boards. Forgive my bluntness, but you will never make a good living doing what you could train your replacement to do in a week.

You guys need to think more like a business, and less like an art.

You make some good points everysurfer. You haven’t e mailed me yet for a board because I can count on half a hand the amount of unhappy customers I have had in over 15 years on my own and 30 working with others. Then again…I only sell a couple of types of boards, that don’t need customer’s personal measurments. Just need their size, where they intend to surf, surfing ability and fitness level and they a board that will last, surf good and catch more waves. Along with as much customer service as you will find in this industry. Many of my customers have become friends.

In my opinion…there can’t be enough questions or too much time spent with the customer prior to them giving you an order. Even when I have lost a sale to some shaper back dooring me or their own shaper attempting to do what I sell…they usually come back later. Like you said…it’s not that hard to figure out. Folks just want to be taken serious when they spend their money…not treated to a lesson in ego.

Also…your forget…we are still in a business where “cool” is a factor and smoking dope on the job is considered ok by more than a few. “Not” making moral judgments on dope smoking, because I don’t care who does what…but it is what it is.

Like I continue to write about…the further we move away from surfing magazine crap, clothing company styled name brand hype and too cool for school rebel without a cause whining…the closer we can get to a business built around true craftmanship and the surfing experience.

Your right that attitude is the main reason many are not making more money. They certainly are not ripping themselves off in many cases. In many cases, they are not making money because they are not that good or not creative.

Also…there are plenty of great board builders who give great service and treat it like a business…because if you sell your boards…you can call it what you want…but it is a business. Period.

The other side of the coin is customers who are really not 100% sure what they are talking about when they request a certain type of board or certain measurments that will not work for their build, fitness level or surfing break. I pass on all those sales if I can’ talk them into something that will work. No need to start out with something I know is going to end bad. Another reason I mostly stick to a few types of shapes that are proven and fill niche.

52

Oh every, you’ve been f’ing up for way to long, you obviously HAVEN’T gotten the chance to come to me for you surfing needs.

I ENCOURAGE EVERY and ALL of my clients to sit in on their shaping session for their customs.

I will flatly out front tell you if you’re trying to have me shape you a design that is going to hold back your surfing or cause me to shape you a pigs ear.

I’m NOT in the business of getting people in the door to take their money and run.

Ditch who ever you’ve been using and take a look around for a better, responsible shaper.

Over 45,000 satisfied customers, from gremmies to the worlds top pros

53
Quote:

Ditch who ever you’ve been using and take a look around for a better, responsible shaper.

Over 45,000 satisfied customers, from gremmies to the worlds top pros

Exactly. Good post Jim. The key is " responsible shaper."

54

Everysurfer,

Been watching this thread develop - this topic pops up here in some form every once in a while anyway - and having some things in common with you, I thought I’d stick my 2 cents in…

Also being a woodworker - who thinks he does some nice custom design/build work - I often have to do generic work to keep things going between the cherry jobs that require more detail and generate better profits. Board builders do the same - build for the rack to keep the operation going and wait on the sophisticated surfer for the customs - which often include exotic shapes and ever more exotic finish work. Granted, there are some who just want volume sales - those are the manufacturers that tend to treat custom work as more of a pain than anything - and tend to screw up…

One example that I’ve been thinking of is cars…most people go for fairly basic transportation, for whatever reason. Even the manufacturers realize this which is why they make the majority of vehicles to cater to this group. But there are those - again for whatever reason - that require a specialized or higher performance or highly detailed car, or both. They want/need a Mercedes not a Chevy. The informed/experienced surfer, I think on average, is the same.

I’ve been surfing for over 40 years and have a good idea what I want in my boards. I build boards, for myself mostly, because it lets me try different things and it’s fun. Been hacking at it since the late 60’s. You say the pros are fools for giving away their secrets - yet you’re pissed that your shapers won’t let you watch…well, I’ve got their videos and read their posts and all I can say is that, even with their secrets in hand, I’ll never get to their level. My boards work. Some work, and look, amazingly well…

But, my boards are Chevys by comparison - when I want to ride a Mercedes, I’m glad I know one or two of the best shapers in the business who I’m glad to pay whatever they want for the best ride. And have yet to find one who wouldn’t do their best to get me what I wanted…

Look for a better shaper who’ll listen to you.

Pete

55 
 "I have never had a shaper allow me in the room when he shapes it to make sure I got what I wanted." 



My door has been ''open'' for years. It is amazing to me how many surfers do not take advantage of this service!
56

House, car, contents, and so on are insurable.

You can crash your expensive or inexpensive car and get it fixed and it looks the same again. Geez you can even get your ride “pimped”.

Wind rips your roof off your house and insurance pays and you get it fixed. Looks the same again.

Or one of the makeover shows will come around and beautify your house for free if you’re lucky.

Take your expensive custom shaped (insert name like Brewer, Frye or who ever here) That you waited a year for out for its first surf and another surfer runs straight into you or maybe your leg rope breaks and its on the rocks. Board is dinged up. Not worth so much now.

Anyone doing no questions asked insurance on boards?

57

And your point is??

I don’t get where you’re going in relation to this thread…are custom boards supposed to come with insurance now to cover rider screwups?? Or, do we all buy cheap crap off the rack because it will, possibly, eventually get trashed??

For me, it is not what I pay for a board, it’s the expertise that goes into the finished product - whether I do it myself or get it done by a master builder.

And, for us Yanks, what the hell is a “Budgie”?

Pete

58

Hey guys,

Its great to hear that there are some of you who work closely with the riders. Maybe the disconnect is finding out who you guys are.

My experience is that if you go into any store to get a custom, the clerk couldn’t care less about his job and won’t do anything more than fill out a simple form stating board length and number of fins.

Other “horror stories” - The Owner (I’ll leave all the names out) of a well known Marina Del Rey/ Venice factory was given a snapped in half board and was told to copy it. New board was 2 inches longer, 1/8 thicker, and missing the double wings.

Another well known shaper (got his start at Con then went on to his own “drivey” boards, can you guess who?) screwed up two out of three boards. First was great, second wasn’t even started by the date the board was promised. I found him around the corner from his shop, offered extra cash to get it started today. He said, “no, it’s too hot today,” Meanwhile all his glassers were sitting around with nothing to do beacuse this guy couldn’t get off his ass to shape any boards. Third board was supposed to have a gloss coat. When I went to pick it up it only had a sand finish. He said thats O.K. and polished out the sand coat! You should have seen the look on the glassers face when the boss did it. I took the board anyway, because at that point I’d already paid half, and figured that if I didn’t take it then, I might never get it.

One Ventura shaper/ glasser lets some little mexican kid do his sanding. The kid doesn’t know what he’s doing so he keeps sanding through the hot coat into the weave. Ya think there would be some quality control? Ya think that when you mention it to the owner, he’d get some UV resin and fix it right there? Nope. Instead you get the I didn’t notice/ it’s not too bad.

Another Ventura shaper/glasser charges for 6 oz, but uses 4. It felt a little light when I picked it up, but it really showed on the first ding. And this was after he shut down the whole factory for two weeks while everybody went to Florida to chase some huricane swell.

Don’t even think about getting a Channel Islands custom. Ya got $700.00 and six months to wait? By the time you get it, you’ve forgotten what you ordered.

Sometimes word of mouth isn’t enough. that is unless you are happy with staying small and just shaping for friends or their friends.

Get the word out that you are willing to go the extra distance. Maybe as simple as a “Meet the Shaper” banner in the window. If I (or the general surfing public) don’t know how far you are willing to go, your best intention doesn’t matter.

One reason why I decided that I’d only make my own boards, and not try to sell any, is that’s my way of helping to support the craftsmen. You real board makers don’t need a bunch of us amatures mucking up the market, flooding it with crap. On my next board, if I can find any of you who really care about what they are doing, I’ll give you the business. Again, I’m better off working some overtime for some extra cash, and letting you do the dirty work. The real geniuses of the industry should be appreciated for what they have taken years to learn. But it’s up to the pros to find a way to let the surfing public know who they are and what they are willing to offer.

59

Re the custom boards and rider screw ups question I refer you to Paul Jensen’s thread a while back with his oh so happy customer.

Modern surfboards are inherently fragile sporting goods made to be used in a hostile environment.

We all know that.

So that is a part of the equation about why surfboards are not priced according to the amount of time/effort to make them.

Custom shaped boards made by master shapers are most vunerable when looking at this part of the equation.

In this link to some of my boards you’ll see boards made by Chops Lascelle and Rooster (both pioneers of Noosa and still surfing/shaping, Dick Van Straalen and Murray Burton so I’m not recommending we all buy crap off the rack.

http://my.imageshack.us/v_images.php

60

Solo, think you been going to the wrong shapers. If you wanted to be part of the whole process and watch some shaping, did you ask ? and if they said NO, I would have taken my business elsewhere…I watched 80% of my boards shaped as a grommy til I started doing my own, I rarely get asked if customers can be involved in stuff, but if they do I am stoked, after all its there board and its thee money…I nearly always take pics for the customer of their boards to e-mail if they dont live nearby to make them a part of the process and always encourage them to have as much to do with every aspect of the board, including design, colours, finish and even stickers and placement, coz it is a custom nd I think it should be what they really want with my advice along the way…I also have had many shapers not want me around or shape me what I really asked for ( because they didnt listen or dont wanna do what I asked or just because they knew better ??? ), these are the things that made me decide that now that I have my own label, that I will treat customers how I want to be treated, after all a surfboard is a functional piece of art and a custom should be a representation of the customer and their personality…IMO and yes we do rip oursekves off,…PASSION NOT PROFIT…