sounds like whingeing
i can only identify this due to the fact that i also do it frequently
So then, what would be a fair price for a surfboard? From the manufacturers point of view. Lets decide on a shape, length, do-dads etc… and figure your labor and within reason what you would like to make in profit and lets see how it shakes out. The more who participate in this the more accurate the read. Anyone game? Great post btw. Also, how do I get ride of the guy and the hair? Thought it was funny, but now it’s pissing me off.
lets go with a shortboard thruster set up. say single concave 6’3 square tailed?
cost = (Blank, glass, resin , fins , sanding discs and paper, electricity ,tape brushes , paint and polish .)x 2
carton of beer
= price.
So cost x2 + a carton = surfboard price.
I reckon you’re on to it Pandanus.
I make about $50 or so dollars clear profit from a 6’3" shortboard. That will get you a carton of some toffy poncy beer in any coloured glass you can imagine.
Sign seen in auto repair shop:
Labor… $40/hr
If you watch…$50hr
If you worked on it before…$60hr
If you help… $70hr
Quote:
Solo, think you been going to the wrong shapers. If you wanted to be part of the whole process and watch some shaping, did you ask ? and if they said NO, I would have taken my business elsewhere…I watched 80% of my boards shaped as a grommy til I started doing my own, I rarely get asked if customers can be involved in stuff, but if they do I am stoked, after all its there board and its thee money…I nearly always take pics for the customer of their boards to e-mail if they dont live nearby to make them a part of the process and always encourage them to have as much to do with every aspect of the board, including design, colours, finish and even stickers and placement, coz it is a custom nd I think it should be what they really want with my advice along the way…I also have had many shapers not want me around or shape me what I really asked for ( because they didnt listen or dont wanna do what I asked or just because they knew better ??? ), these are the things that made me decide that now that I have my own label, that I will treat customers how I want to be treated, after all a surfboard is a functional piece of art and a custom should be a representation of the customer and their personality…IMO and yes we do rip oursekves off,…PASSION NOT PROFIT…
Wrong guy. I was not the one who said he wasn’t allowed to see surfboards being shaped. Agree with you post though. I deal with great shapers and a niche product. I have no issues getting information from any of them. I realized long ago, you get what you pay for and most folks claims of guru status are just that…claims. The real deal is always easy to spot.
thats about right
and if they are rude fussy and demanding 100$ ph
even then they are not worth it
jus tell em to fark orf
$100 afoot is usually rule of thumb in oz. bit more for mals
$650 for pu/pe, no art, exactly the specs you want, six weeks
foam stain - add $15
resin tint/swirl - add $25
pin line - another $25
People who want what you got never complain…
Well to itemise. Burford 6’4j =$80
sanding discs in various grit =$15
sandpaper and grit screen =$15
glass @ $5 a meter =$30
fins and system +$50
resin =$15
tape =$3
electricity and freight =$20
so this equalls $228
multiplied by 2 =$456
add on a box of Hahn super dry $45
so $501 add on a bit of Kevvy 10%
the total price for a 6’3 is $550
Some times I amaze myself with my genius .thank you
Backyarders didn’t ruin it…backyarders that undercut professionals have. So you can make it in your backyard for a hundred bucks? Great. Don’t sell it for $200 or you screw every legit board maker there ever was…or currently is. My friend that owns Global glassing paid workmans comp 50,000 dollars in the last 18 months. Appearantly he made a small mistake on the paper work so they want another 19 grand. Didn’t see any mention of workmans comp here. Sometimes competition can be a problem. If burger king never sold a whopper for 99 cents you’d never see an 89 cent big mac. We call it the race to the bottom. Both of them are just above dog food but both are extremely successful food companies. Goes to show if you make something cheap and readily available the idiots will flock to it and throw quality straight out the window. They may sue later though when they find out they are obese and unhealthy. It’s your fault that they bought your cheap crap. Now YOU must pay. When something is expensive it sends out a signal that it’s of high quality. Whether it is or not. And vice versa.
Couple of things to think about -
Drew Brophy (you may know him as the original posca pen guy for Lost…) once told me that if he did his artwork on a mailbox he could get a hundred bucks for it. On a 24" X 24" canvas…$400. On a 4’ X 6’ canvas 2 grand. If he does it on a surfboard he gets $50. As soon as the word surboard is mentioned the price goes right in the shitter.
We sell a set of plastic fins and boxes (all made in the US of A) to licensed board builders for $22 if you buy 20 sets. If you buy just one you pay closer to $30. Not happy about that as it really is high quality stuff. But with so few competitors monoplozing the industry we don’t have a choice and must be within a few bucks. Won’t even go into how many years…how much money, stress and grief we’ve gone through to be able to develop and make available this product. When installed properly you can get years of use out of it. Really only have 2 competitors above us however they basically have the monopoly on the market. If I show up somewhere like say europe…spend a couple of weeks driving around showing the product and preying on peoples common sense (works best in places where they don’t see those full page K ads lol) I can usually make quite a dent. Pick up a few new customers even. Within a week of leaving my competitor will show up and drop their price by $5. WTF? Race to the bottom…
The surfboard industry is the ONLY industry where a wholesaler will buy a product for resale (like a set of FCS plugs and fins) and turn it around to his customer at NO PROFIT. Why own a business? You put out money that you had to wait to get back. Wouldn’t you expect to make at least a dollar? My other friend builds custom homes. You think he’s gonna go get a set of french doors for your new house he’s building and just factor it into his overall price? Fark no. He’s gonna make a profit. It’s why he’s still in business. The surfboard industry is teetering on extinction and people are still factoring in +20 for your board with FCS. Lol
On my way home last friday I stopped and picked up a large bottle of (cheapo)wine. Bag of tortilla chips and some salsa. Big bottle of soda. Couple of chocolate bars too for a couple of friends dropping by. Price tag? $32. In the morning all that was left was a few chips and a scoop of salsa.
So you can make it in your backyard for a hundred bucks? Fanfrickentastic. What will you sell it for? If your smart enough to see a bigger picture and would like this industry to be around for your kiddies it better not be $250.
I was getting custom boards made for $250 in the mid 80’s. I still know places that a guy off the street (no bro brah connections) can go and get a board today for $375. A decent made board too. A hundred and 25 bucks increase in nearly 25 years? Someone ain’t seein’ the big picture. My father bought the house we grew up in for 16 grand. Sold it 25 years later for 130 grand.
To me there are 2 types of backyarders. The ones that really want to design and build their own boards. And the ones that are too cheap to pay a professional what it’s worth. I’m all about the backyarders. Lots of the better designs come from these guys. Plus many end up owning their own shop down the road. Build 'em for youself cheap. More power to ya. If your gonna sell 'em try have a little respect for the guys that paved the way for you to be able to sell a fricken surfboard.
And stay away from the race to the bottom. At the end of your life you’ll have a way bigger smile on your face as the lights dim knowing that your were about making something of top quality not how cheap you could make it…
Dead on Lokbox. I know guys who can surf really well and have been surfing forever and yet refuse to spend more than say 400 bucks on a board. These guys aren’t poor either, they roll up in their 60k dollar monster trucks and pull out a cock-eyed sled… new, and that’s important cause it shows they’re willing to spend more often. Anyway you can see the ears poking out on one side from across the parking lot and it doesn’t bother them a bit. They come over to my truck and I’ve got boards that cost 2 1/2 times as much, I’m a bit of a board-nerd but I keep them forever or I sell them used for what the bros pay new. So they kinda look and comment on how sweet the board looks and then just go on about how so-n-so gives them such a good deal and how they just can’t see how a surfboard can cost so much money… I mean dude, it’s just a piece of foam, and that board can’t do anything that this one can’t and so on. Someone commented on the fact that surfboards are so fragile relative to what we ask them to do and I think that is on the money as well and goes to the rise of the pop-out also, I mean that’s why they made them in the first place right?
The sad fact is that the bro/bra deal isn’t just from customers. Too many shapers give special favor to people who are wealthy, cool, or related to people who are wealthy/cool. The rest of us get treated like a hassle and whatever the price, if its done half ass and takes forever, it’s no fun. After a couple of experiences like everysurfer, I started shaping my own boards.
Having said that, shaping my own boards and visiting Swaylocks has opened my eyes to all the great shapers out there. It’s also made me realize that although it’s really easy to shape a board that works OK, it’s really hard to shape one that’s magic. I have a lot more respect for the craft and the craftsmen like Jim Philips, Ace, Barnfield, MikeDaniels, etc. Getting a well-made board from a master shaper is an awesome experience and puts you in direct contact with the heritage of surfing because all great shapers learned from great shapers.
So, everysurfer, I wish you luck and I know what you’re saying but great shapers are out there. They’re right in front of your nose.
C
My point was that surfboards have not followed inflation rates as other products have. I made a post a while back about taking a 4x8 sheet of plywood to a boat builder. Tell him you want it layered with a certain fiberglass in a certain way and it needs to be tinted. Then hotcoated…fins attached, sanded, pinlined and polished and you need it in less then ten days. See what you get. Don’t look too distressed when they laugh you out of the building after telling you 2 grand lol. Yes the fault lies on both sides. If you go to a dealership and order a car with custom tires…custom radio, custom suspension etc… you’ll wait months and pay through the nose. Why is it that if it’s a surfboard it’s just expected to be cheap and done quick? You can see full page or even multiple page editorials in the mag on how to build your own surfboard. Every surfer should do it at least once right? How many times have you heard or read that? Now think back and try and remember if you’ve ever seen or read an editorial on how to sew your own baggies. Or make your own wetsuit. Can’t be more than 20 bucks worth of materials right? Problem is there aren’t really places that sell those types of materials. Plus that part of the industry is protected. The high margin part go figure. Shouldn’t it be the other way around? Never understood shapers giving the bro brah treatment to people that are well off. Shouldn’t it be the other way around? Funny thing is they are the ones that usually push the hardest for a deal. In many cases it’s how they became “well off”. Maybe it’s because they are a person of power in this industry and can “blow them up”. Rarely happens.
Surfboards cost pennies per wave. Regardless of price. That’s all that really needs to be said…
Besides it’s a bizzaro world out there that is.
Everysurfer, by now you’ve heard from dozens of shapers who’ve assured you that they take pride in listening to and respecting a customer’s wishes, including being allowed into the shaping room to watch. There are far too many surfers who have no real idea of what they should be looking for in a surfboard, and what will work for them and not just a copy of some “model” that Joe Pro supposedly rides. That is why those of us who have the experience and, importantly, the communication skills to truly address the needs of the discerning few are STOKED to have the opportunity to design a board for such a person. Mostly you will not make contact with shapers like us by walking into a “surf shop”–whatever that means these days. A little perserverance will turn up the real pros at making customs, and not just the ones who grind out piles (no pun intended) for the masses. If you’d like to discuss design with me (even if it’s just info for your next homemade effort) I’d be happy to talk to you anytime.
I agree with everything you’ve said, Lokbox.
I think the same thing happens to other industries as well. There are lots of musicians who barely get by while the music industry does OK. Writers and photographers get squeezed by everyone in publishing. But the difference with surboards is that that status dictates that cool surfers get discounted boards. Suckers pay retail. And retail isn’t even retail. It’s what retail should have been 15 years ago.
C
The problem has always been that there is always someone willing to do it cheaper. there is fame and glory to be had, all you have to do is knock down the guy in front of you, any way you can, and there it is. I could go on and on about deals broken, handshakes forgotten and written agreements that are meaningless especially if it involves one of the “Gods” of our industry. It is easy to get into the “industry”. Be willing to stab your best friend in the back. Say one thing to peoples face and slam them when they are not there. AND DO NOT EVER ASK FOR A RAISE IN PAY. Cheaper, cheaper cheaper, we brought it on ourselves. We are after all just surfers, not entitled to make a real living.
G’day Lokbox,
Most backyarders in this country that turn out more than say, 100 boards a year, will be at or near the price of the the bigger names, so with lower overheads their profit margins will be much better than these brands. Just because someone has the smarts to be able to legitimately make surfboards from their backyard doesn’t mean they’re ruining the industry.
A lot of people who had factories in the past decades have gone back to the backyard.
I pay workers comp according to the number of employees and their income.
The quality that I see from the backyarders that I am surrounded by, who make decent numbers is on par or exceeds the recognised brand names.
The surfers in this part of the world are very clued in and will not tolerate dodgy equipment, (at present there are warehouses in the western suburbs of Sydney full of inferior, very cheap imported Boards just sitting there not being sold even for $300 ) and any manufacturer that doesn’t produce quality will not last.
Edit: Just as a bit of an edit, the backyarders who do sell their boards for just above cost soon put their prices up when they realise they’re doing a hell of a lot of work for just about nothing.
And if I cant compete with someone who has worked out how to make a quality product for much less then I guess I’m not smart enough to be in business.
Daren
Quote:
Backyarders didn’t ruin it…backyarders that undercut professionals have. So you can make it in your backyard for a hundred bucks? Great. Don’t sell it for $200 or you screw every legit board maker there ever was…or currently is. My friend that owns Global glassing paid workmans comp 50,000 dollars in the last 18 months. Appearantly he made a small mistake on the paper work so they want another 19 grand. Didn’t see any mention of workmans comp here. Sometimes competition can be a problem. If burger king never sold a whopper for 99 cents you’d never see an 89 cent big mac. We call it the race to the bottom. Both of them are just above dog food but both are extremely successful food companies. Goes to show if you make something cheap and readily available the idiots will flock to it and throw quality straight out the window. They may sue later though when they find out they are obese and unhealthy. It’s your fault that they bought your cheap crap. Now YOU must pay. When something is expensive it sends out a signal that it’s of high quality. Whether it is or not. And vice versa.
Couple of things to think about -
Drew Brophy (you may know him as the original posca pen guy for Lost…) once told me that if he did his artwork on a mailbox he could get a hundred bucks for it. On a 24" X 24" canvas…$400. On a 4’ X 6’ canvas 2 grand. If he does it on a surfboard he gets $50. As soon as the word surboard is mentioned the price goes right in the shitter.
We sell a set of plastic fins and boxes (all made in the US of A) to licensed board builders for $22 if you buy 20 sets. If you buy just one you pay closer to $30. Not happy about that as it really is high quality stuff. But with so few competitors monoplozing the industry we don’t have a choice and must be within a few bucks. Won’t even go into how many years…how much money, stress and grief we’ve gone through to be able to develop and make available this product. When installed properly you can get years of use out of it. Really only have 2 competitors above us however they basically have the monopoly on the market. If I show up somewhere like say europe…spend a couple of weeks driving around showing the product and preying on peoples common sense (works best in places where they don’t see those full page K ads lol) I can usually make quite a dent. Pick up a few new customers even. Within a week of leaving my competitor will show up and drop their price by $5. WTF? Race to the bottom…
The surfboard industry is the ONLY industry where a wholesaler will buy a product for resale (like a set of FCS plugs and fins) and turn it around to his customer at NO PROFIT. Why own a business? You put out money that you had to wait to get back. Wouldn’t you expect to make at least a dollar? My other friend builds custom homes. You think he’s gonna go get a set of french doors for your new house he’s building and just factor it into his overall price? Fark no. He’s gonna make a profit. It’s why he’s still in business. The surfboard industry is teetering on extinction and people are still factoring in +20 for your board with FCS. Lol
On my way home last friday I stopped and picked up a large bottle of (cheapo)wine. Bag of tortilla chips and some salsa. Big bottle of soda. Couple of chocolate bars too for a couple of friends dropping by. Price tag? $32. In the morning all that was left was a few chips and a scoop of salsa.
So you can make it in your backyard for a hundred bucks? Fanfrickentastic. What will you sell it for? If your smart enough to see a bigger picture and would like this industry to be around for your kiddies it better not be $250.
I was getting custom boards made for $250 in the mid 80’s. I still know places that a guy off the street (no bro brah connections) can go and get a board today for $375. A decent made board too. A hundred and 25 bucks increase in nearly 25 years? Someone ain’t seein’ the big picture. My father bought the house we grew up in for 16 grand. Sold it 25 years later for 130 grand.
To me there are 2 types of backyarders. The ones that really want to design and build their own boards. And the ones that are too cheap to pay a professional what it’s worth. I’m all about the backyarders. Lots of the better designs come from these guys. Plus many end up owning their own shop down the road. Build 'em for youself cheap. More power to ya. If your gonna sell 'em try have a little respect for the guys that paved the way for you to be able to sell a fricken surfboard.
And stay away from the race to the bottom. At the end of your life you’ll have a way bigger smile on your face as the lights dim knowing that your were about making something of top quality not how cheap you could make it…
Wow…good post Lokbox. So true. The issue is still egos. Shapers could have put crap on all of the undercut stuff years ago, but they can’t organize to take care of their own future because of egos. I have seen guys screw up a relationship worth thousands of dollars because of a $20.00 sour deal based 100% on a bruised ego. Shapers as a group have been the worst as selling the difference between quality and a hack job that has the basic look of what they are creating. I agree with you on the difference between the two types of back yarders. Most shapers started in the backyard. Some saw a need to charge what they were worth. In the words of one of the best…When you start at the low ball price you can never go up.