Pros and cons of using either. The more scientific the better.
What type of board to be ridden where? Budget? Location? Availability of materials? Start with the waves you’re going to ride then work backwards. That’ll get you the shape, materials, and everything. Last of all, pick the color.
If it’s just for mental masturbation, why bother? Remember that science, empiricism, is only a means to determine what “works” If you already know what works, you no longer need science, until you have a new problem to solve. Science for its own sake is a luxury most of us can’t afford. My goals are to put boards in the water and dollars in my pocket. I know about all I need to, in order to do those two things. Doodling in the resin, while fascinating, doesn’t accomplish certain things I need to get done. I can tell you a lot about both resin types as I work with both on a daily basis, but it’s not terribly scientific. Within the scope of my business and its goals, I have moved way beyond science, with its hypotheses and theories and into actually producing functional and financial results.
If you want to know anything specific and based in not-inconsiderable experience, ask me something I can answer. If you want many hours of sprialing discussion to no tangible benefit or result, there are others here who can help you with that, as well.
Good one Bam…
Deanbo you Might want to talk to Resinhead…
I’m still working my way throught the free block of EPS foam that my brother scored for me.
It’s all good
i got one Bammbam
does RR go yellow at all?
like the other epoxies
which yellows faster epoxy or suncure poly?
thanks in advance
“If it’s just for mental masturbation, why bother?”
Unfortunately there’s some serious wanking to be done on this one. Or should that be fortunately? Either way I’m trying to explain to people who know nothing about surfing why epoxy does this, polyester does that. What the benefits are of using epoxy and vice versa. No answer too scientific.
The obvious advantage epoxy has over poly is that it’s safer to work with. Not many people will argue with that. You don’t need acetone, etc…
Other advantages of expoxy:
You can use it around the house or on the boat instead of buying expensive glues (Epoxy has replaced duct tape, if you can believe that.) My whole house is epoxied together.
You can use various systems and additives to tweak your physical properties (flex, viscosity…) and you can choose specific resins for specific fabrics.
You can work in a well ventilated room in your house because there’s no nasty, lingering, polyester smell. (I’ve seal my eps blanks and hotcoated inside my house. You couldn’t do that with epoxy and stay married.)
I think it’s for deanbo to decide what info he wants, maybe he wants the deeper theory about higher tensile strength, greater toughness (less brittle), better shear strength, less shrinkage and all the other stuff. Just maybe he’d like actual figures so that he can do some calculations. Maybe, just maybe, he’s looking to do something else woth epoxy and not just make surfboards.
I’ve found trying to second guess what a person wants when they ask a question to be very non-productive and even disasterous!
Try this, there’s masses there.
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i got one Bammbamdoes RR go yellow at all?
like the other epoxies
which yellows faster epoxy or suncure poly?
thanks in advance
All epoxies yellow, except for the ones that are brown to begin with. Both RR and Aluzine (the surfboard-specific epoxies) yellow far, far less than any of the other ones that I’ve encountered. No disrespect to Loehr, and I’m sure he’ll disagree, but the latest Aluzine and RR are equivalent in terms of UV stability. Both yellow faster than suncure poly, in my experience. But after a year or so, the poly board and the epoxy boards will be about the same color, but the poly board will be shattered, caved-in, shrunken, dead and lifeless. The eps/epoxy board will have as many good years left in it as you continue to take care of it.
cheers mate
so i guess it just a matter of time then
Epoxy is easier to work with. No “gel” times to deal with
Epoxy goes further than polyester. Generally it takes at least twice as much poly to laminate as epoxy.
A 6 double 6 laminate using epoxy is the same weight as a 4 double 4 of polyester on a URETHANE blank. Therefore epoxy is much stronger per weight.
Epoxy wets the fabric into the fiber bundles better and has far better adhesion within the laminate matrix. Again epoxy is superior in strength.
Epoxy are high solids and don’t contain the VOC’s that polyester does. Lower vapor pressure (1/50th the amount) allows for better working conditions and better environmental aspects.
Epoxy does not require clean up solvents to be used. No toxic waste is produced as a side effect of board building.
Epoxy can be used in conjunction with almost any material, any foam, any fabric.
Epoxy can be used in every process , hand lay up, vacuum bagging, RTM, infusion, etc. etc. etc.
Polyester resin is a carcinogen, epoxy is not.
Shall I go on … I could.
Polyester resin is slightly faster to work with. It is not a quality product and does not produce the quality that can be achieved using epoxy. It is dirty, fumy, toxic, wasteful stuff that pollutes while making a lower quality finished product.
The evidence on polyester resin application being carcinogenic is flimsy. The strongest evidence is that styrene (polyester resin thinner) leads to early cognitive decline, particularly relevant in aging. However, appropriate precautions can be taken to minimize health risks with epoxy or polyester. If you brush on gloss coats without a respirator, you are not taking precautions. Similarly, epoxy allergenic potential is also relevant if precautions are not taken.
Polyester is significantly faster in most glass shops.
Resin art and gloss are much easier with polyester. Some would even refuse to do color resin work or gloss with epoxy.
The material data on the superiority of epoxy is pretty clear, but largely irrelevant for domestic manufacture in which the labor hours per glass job dominate the equation. Even for a clear-and-sanded.
All chemicals should be respected … for sure. The number who have died of cancer in the surfboard biz who didn’t take enough in the way of precaution is significant.
Polyester isn’t really any faster if your production is set up properly. Asking a glass shop to switch without changing your basic set up is asking to be inefficent.
There are things that work better with polyester as a medium. There are also things that work better with epoxy as the medium. Better strength to weight and more durable performance belongs to epoxy.
I guess your opinion is that US manufacturers should give up trying to make high end product because you think it’s more costly , it isn’t. But if your right, I guess pretty colors are the US’ only possible salvation.
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Polyester isn’t really any faster if your production is set up properly. Asking a glass shop to switch without changing your basic set up is asking to be inefficent.
There are things that work better with polyester as a medium. There are also things that work better with epoxy as the medium. Better strength to weight and more durable performance belongs to epoxy.
I guess your opinion is that US manufacturers should give up trying to make high end product because you think it’s more costly , it isn’t. But if your right, I guess pretty colors are the US’ only possible salvation.
I’ve been watching closely the evolution of epoxy for surfboard resins since Clark closed. I’ve watched a number of glass shops start, and some that were already operational. All of them charge for more labor hours for epoxy.
So, today, on the rack, a surfboard manufacturer is faced with $450 boards retail from GSI. He obviously, like most businessmen, thinks about every way he can possibly offer the same quality product at a lower price by reducing costs in one way or another.
A domestic surfboard is $100 in materials and $350 in labor and retail markup. Very roughly. And, similarly very roughly, glass shops charge another 2 hours of labor for an epoxy board. That translates to another $30-50 wholesale for the surfboard which is already being priced out of the “on the rack” market by the new imported GSI boards made at the COBRA factory.
If there were a way for the glass shops to increase throughput easily, I THINK they would have done it…perhaps if they tore down EVERYTHING and rebuilt from scratch it would be easy…but what I am hearing is that it takes them longer and they are gonna charge more for it. And, also, if you want a shiny finish or color resin work FORGET ABOUT EPOXY ALTOGETHER.
I really hope this situation changes and domestic glass shops re-tool so that epoxy takes the same number of labor hours as polyester…unfortunately the equation for making domestic surfboards successful in the market is hugely dependent on labor hours. And the existing glass shops cannot make epoxy competitive in labor hours with polyester.
I think epoxy is a better material, and enormously better for the health of those working in glassing. But I don’t see it being taken up in earnest by domestic glassers who cannot match their polyester throughput with epoxy - even those really experienced in epoxy.
Lots of epoxy boards out there now where there weren’t there before. I’ve watched our business increase 800% in the last two years and you don’t think that’s from everyone giving it up? Certainly some shops have but the high end guys are now over 50% epoxy and that number continues to climb. No one said epoxy would take over over night, but the writings on the wall.
GSI is right now wholesaling polyester boards for $100. Yes, $100!!! If you don’t make something special you’ll soon be gone. In the words of Gordon Clark, “If we’re making the same thing they are and charging more, we’re history.” In addition, if the EPA or the SCAQMD ever enforced the rules already on the books it would be over now. There is no long term future for polyester tech. But I do believe there is a future for the domestic custom builder and that is showing in the numbers.
The epoxy end of the domestic market continues to increase. Polyester continues to decline. This is the real story here. Efficency is another story, one that can be more easily be addressed than the decline and almost certain outcome on the other end. I have 25 years experience at running an epoxy shop so no one probably knows better than me and our margins were always better than anyone elses. The fact that inefficency does exist is in part due to their own resistance to change. Change is what will keep us in the game. Resist it and you have to compete with the $100 guys. No domestic can come close to this so offering a better mousetrap is the only means of survival.
…yes I know that epoxy is better glue and has better properties
but
epoxy resin is out for the same time that polyester
why in the other industries, that are bigger than this industry, still most of the production is with the different types of polyester?
why not to do almost all the production with epoxy?
you know, their margins are huge than ours…
why epoxy is so expensive?
why epoxy doesnt has specific tints or pigments that work 100% like the polyester ones?
why most epoxies do not include an UV stabilizer?
why most are not so clear?
etc
thank you
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epoxy resin is out for the same time that polyesterwhy in the other industries, that are bigger than this industry, still most of the production is with the different types of polyester?
why not to do almost all the production with epoxy?
you know, their margins are huge than ours…
Polyester is less viscous than epoxies (in general), it will wet out glass faster and more easily in an industrial setting. It costs less and requires less working time and sets faster and these are usually wins on the bottom line. For surfboard resins, the viscosity for a laminating resin runs 200-300 cps, epoxy is 800-1200.
Epoxies are used exclusively in high strength/stiffness applications of FRPs because you just can’t get the same strength/weight with polyester.
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why epoxy is so expensive?
why epoxy doesnt has specific tints or pigments that work 100% like the polyester ones?
why most epoxies do not include an UV stabilizer?
why most are not so clear?
Surfboard specific epoxies are not much more expensive than polyester, as lower quantities are needed. A good surfboard epoxy is even more clear than the best polyester resins and just as UV stable (but it does not necessarily block UV from the foam unless you add blockers too).
Right now people who are quite familiar with both resins only do gloss and pigment/tint work with polyester…
Most polyester resins are brown…but people don’t ask why they are so brown, because the surfboard specific polyesters are engineered for maximal clarity available with polyester. Same is true for epoxy.
Don’t drink the brown resin.
…in Brazil
the guys use the reichhold/resapol T208 that is about 1200 or more in viscosity…
I never use it, so I dont know
epoxy for surfboards…there are only a couple of brands and you can find to gral public in no one of the surfin Countries except USA
so the people use the best that can find…
I use a totally clear lam resin (water clear) with UV stabilizer
in boatbuilding
the expensive boats that have epoxy, are they use pigments (white for example) for polyester to put in the epoxy resin?
I dont understand why in more or less 50 years of developments
there re no all the stuff to work with epoxy…
and I dont talk about surfboards (that is a tiny industry)…
The viscosity of epoxy doesn’t slow down production at all. It is soooo simple to change your laminating system … this is what I mean. Inefficency. If you can’t figure it out, buy the DVD.
Epoxy costs less in production that polyester now. Again this is another situation related to inefficency and lack of knowledge of the medium.
In the US nearly all high performance sports equipment is made with epoxy. Snowboards, sailboards, SUP, kiteboards, fishing rods, wake boards, paddle boards, kayaks, tennis rackets, compound bows, high performance boats, etc, etc. All epoxy. Only surfboards are lagging behind. And no matter what core you may be using, it is best covered with an epoxy skin. Of this there is no doubt!
Our resins are nearly water white and as UV stable as the surfboard polyesters.
There are epoxy specific pigments and they work quite well. Hastings plastics sells them. And people do color work with epoxies every day. In FL this is not considered to be any problem at all. All you have to do is come to Surf Expo and look around. You’ll see the same kind of quality you see in polyesters. This is no secret … anyone can do it. In fact I do a colored layup in the DVD. It’s simple.
You know, I don’t care if anyone buys the DVD or not. I’m not trying to hard sell it here. But don’t come on here and tell me I can’t do what I’m showing everyone how to do right there on digital media. Just because you haven’t seen it doesn’t mean it can’t be done.
Reverb, again you aren’t up to date.
Today our resins are available in the US, Australia, Brazil, Peru, Japan, Costa Rica, New Zealand, England, Portugal, France, Hong Kong, Canada and Mexico.
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Epoxy is easier to work with. No "gel" times to deal withEpoxy goes further than polyester. Generally it takes at least twice as much poly to laminate as epoxy.
A 6 double 6 laminate using epoxy is the same weight as a 4 double 4 of polyester on a URETHANE blank. Therefore epoxy is much stronger per weight.
Epoxy wets the fabric into the fiber bundles better and has far better adhesion within the laminate matrix. Again epoxy is superior in strength.
Epoxy are high solids and don’t contain the VOC’s that polyester does. Lower vapor pressure (1/50th the amount) allows for better working conditions and better environmental aspects.
Epoxy does not require clean up solvents to be used. No toxic waste is produced as a side effect of board building.
Epoxy can be used in conjunction with almost any material, any foam, any fabric.
Epoxy can be used in every process , hand lay up, vacuum bagging, RTM, infusion, etc. etc. etc.
Polyester resin is a carcinogen, epoxy is not.
Shall I go on … I could.
Polyester resin is slightly faster to work with. It is not a quality product and does not produce the quality that can be achieved using epoxy. It is dirty, fumy, toxic, wasteful stuff that pollutes while making a lower quality finished product.
Agreed agreed agreed agreed!!! Yes.