I am not a surfboard shaper but do have extensive experience making/shaping R/C glider airplane wings using extruded poslystyrene (Dow Styrofoam), fiberglass cloth and epoxy. I have been doing a lot of internet surfing lately regarding surfboard design and shaping and have noticed a lot of quite vigorous sentiment against this technology in surfboard design including frank misinformation on many sites. I really think it has gotten a bad rap and would like people to reconsider what I think are superrior properties of this combination as opposed to polyurethane/polyester resin construction. The only shaping company I see running with the ball on this is http://www.pointblanks.com/ although there are a few other companies/shapers out there. Primarily what I think has been most misconstrued is the foam. Extruded Polystyrene (Dow Styrofoam) is completely different from expanded polystyrene(cheap grocery store cooler or coffee cup foam, also, unfortunately,the foam used for Boardwords and Surftech surfboards) Extruded foam absorbs very little water(negligible) when submersed as opposed to the beaded expanded foam used in the Boardworks/surftech boards and the standard Clark polyurethane. Also it is very shapable although slightly more tricky than polyurethane. It is amenable to hot wire shaping/cutting unlike polyurethane. I must admit I have not used a power planer on this foam but I beleive it would would work. I am convinced in most ways the properties of this foam are superrior to that of polyurethane and expanded bead polystyrene. It of course is not compatable with standard polyester resins and there is not a surfboard blank supplier yet for this foam unlike Clark. Epoxy must be used which is significantly more expensive but also much much more tough and ding resistant which I think is the best quality of the combination. I know detractors say the flex properties of Epoxy construction are worse than polyester as far as ride/feel are concerned. To this, I admit, I do not have enough experience but I am sceptical. Is it what you are used to or is it that Polyester/polyurethane have some magical properties perfectly married for the purposes of surfing? Anyway, I could go on (but wont) but do urge the surfing community/shaping community to not ignore or discredit what is a considerable improvement in surfboard durability and longetivity.
Sorry, You’re wrong. Whether you’ve read it or not, lots of research has been done in the use of styrofoam and epoxy on surfboards. Experts have testified here that beaded expanded polystyrene foam contains too much other plastics from the manufacturing process. It stores pressure and, because resin doesn’t adhere as well, releases it as a delam bubble when heated. But working with unsealed aeronotical structures I wouldn’t expect you to know about that. And yes, beaded foam seals out water (and resin) WAY better than extruded foam. There have been many many law suits where homeowners claimed and won huge settlements for damages caused to their homes by EIFS, or synthetic stucco. EIFS puts the stucco over extruded polystyrene (XPS). If any water leaks through the stucco, the XPS wicks it up and transfers the water into any wood which it touches. Whole houses have rotted away from XPS styrofoam in a matter of a few months. Yes, I believe Epoxy/styro boards to be superior construction. But your having confused the properties of EPS with those of XPS convinces me that you are either connected to the poly surfboard industry, or you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about.
Noodle has things just a bit askew here. XPS (extruded polystyrene) generally does not wick water. That’s not the problem with it. The building material industry got nailed for using EPS (expanded polystyrene) because it DID wick water. It (EPS) is now available with new technology that doesn’t (EDRO technology) He was right that XPS does delaminate because of trapped blowing agent gasses and this is XPS’ great failing in surfboard construction. Meanwile the advances in EPS have answered the the issues involved with it and it now presents a very fine material for both surfboard and house construction. Epoxy resins, on the other hand, are consistantly misrepresented. This may soon all be water under the bridge though because of the radification of 1164 which mandates the elimination of most VOC’s from manufactuing in California. This is already in effect and the local air quality folks are starting with the big boys (like boat mfg) and working their way down to businesses like surfboard manufacturers. The only alternitive available presently are epoxy resins which have become easy enough to use that production using this method is reasonable. And as you stated there are advantages that go far beyond environmental.
With all due respect I think you are confused, and this is the perfect case in point for my post. Please note I do not work for the “pop out” surfboard industry or other related industry I am merely a proponent of improved materials. (perhaps you work for Clark Foam) Here is a list of web links that support my assertations. http://www.uscooler.com/news/Insulation_Tech_Release062802.htm http://www.fpcfoam.com/water.html http://www.fpcfoam.com/submerse.html http://www.foamfoamfoam.com/styrofoam.html Feel free to post data to the contrary, especially any links regarding these lawsuits.
I’m sorry Quincy but I was the eastern distributor for Dow Styrofoam. I’ve made thousands of surfboards with their product. I did years of r&d in conjustion with Dow on both the foams and the resins. The low melt point of XPS and the trapped blowing agent gasses create problems on surfboards not seen on other products. It is a very fine product for many applications, surfboards are unfortunatly are not one of them.
My bad for the EIFS-XPS connection. However, to have somebody come here from another industry saying that the EPS which I’ve used and proven… doesn’t work? It DOES work in a superior way. Dude likes building aircraft… badly. Dude, go build some aircraft.
Did not mean to ruffle feathers. Again, I have not built surfboards with this foam but It works beutifully for wings and the homebuilt aricraft garage industry uses this extensively. Point Blanks does seem to be having success using this combination. Do you know what solves the delam problem? Is this really a gassing problem or a temperature expansion/contraction issue? I have built many wings without delamination and these are totally airtight/sealed. One wing I built delaminated in one small area but this was stored for many years in an attic in the midwest, exposed to extreme temp. fluctuations.
Greg, 1162 has made most the Socal FRP industry change from ortho’s to DCPD’s which can be produced with lower VOC levels at the same viscosity. Low VOC gel coats and Iso’s and VE have also been introduced with success that meet these requirements. Also closed molding methods like infusion, RTM lite and vacuum bagging are growing in use with polyester resins helping companies get under the VOC levels. MACT standards hit nationwide in about 1.5 years. This is basically a national version of the SCAQMD 1162 ruling. http://www.cfa-hq.org/ga/mact-standards.cfm has all the info on MACT for composites. Funny thing is surfboard resin is too high styrene to meet these new rules, also surfboard manufactures HATE change and it will be hard to get new resins accepted regardless of the rules. Eventually everybody will have to switch to something different because of these new rules. Probably your best bet at getting glass shops to look at epoxies. Sluggo
Last I checked Point Blank was sucking wind. I guess Fletcher needs a job and Daddy bought him a surfboard company. Sluggo
Sluggo, Are problems with Point Blanks the product or the buisness, this is an important distinction, i.e. does their product suck?
Considering they are owned by one of the most successfull outdoor gear companies, one would think it is the product. But I don’t know, never owned one of their boards. I do know they changed foams a few years ago due to problems with delam and water absorbtion. Personally I would buy a board from someone because of a shape I wanted to ride, not for construction issues. I really don’t have problems with boards falling apart. I am big, so my boards are thicker and less prone to break. Also, bigger people are easier on their equipment, less likely to jump up and down on the thing like a lighter surfer. Sluggo
Quincy: You have touched a nerve of sorts, not so much the topic but the timing perhaps. There has been a LOT of Epoxy vs. Poly discussion on this site over the last several months. I’m just now trying to collect all of the info, sift through it and make sense of it myself. Part of the problem, as has been noted, is that the surfboard industry has been using the same materials and techniques for many years. Change is slow and it will no doubt cost big money for some. Greg Loehr, who you have heard from, has been involved in the surfboard industry and particularly the epoxy manufacturing end of it for many years. His company, Resin Research, is on the forefront of epoxy resins and additives engineered specifically for surfboard building. As I mentioned above there has been many long discussions in past weeks and months on most of the board building topics related to Epoxy and Polystyrene foams. If you feel that you got “short” answers or were mistaken for an industry troll it may be due to the pages of threads found in the Archives. The XPS foam delam you had in your attic was most likely due to the temperature. It is a pretty well documented problem with surfboards built from the same foam. Hang around Swaylock’s, you guys in the model plane business have lots of good experience with Epoxy/EPS from what I’ve seen. I’ve gotten my best hotwire and variac plans from model builders sites. Tom S.
Tom, Are you building epoxy surfboards? I would like to get some more info as to what you are doing and regarding Greg Loehr’s experience with it and the Resin Research product line. I cant seem to locate it on the web though. Is he using extruded polystyrene? and how has the delam issue been solved? Thanks,
Quincy: I’m just getting my feet wet with epoxy. I believe you can find contact info for Resin Research in the Resources section, certainly in the archives. The EDRO, or improved expanded polystyrene foams are what Greg Loehr’s Co. is using with success. Regarding XPS and the inherant problems: when you have a surfboard that is susceptible to to failure in high heat situations then you have a problem. Commercial success and widespread acceptance isn’t going to happen with a surfboard label that fails in the simple act of transporting it on the roof of your car or leaving your board on the beach in the sun. For my own learning curve I’ve been using XPS, it’s cheap and available and I don’t care about longevity right now. Learning how to use the epoxy resins in laminations and tinted finish work is what interests me. Tom S.
That is interesting. Thanks. I did not anticipate the delam issue and would not have thought it would be present with extruded polystyrene but not in expanded polystyrene blanks. Do your practice boards delaminate regularly? That touches on another issue I never really understood. Why do the expanded blank bords suck up as much water as everyone seems to say but a coffe cup can hold a cup of coffee all day without leaking? Do you know if Point Blanks is having delam issues?
Quincy: I can’t give you any feedback on delam vs. XPS yet, practice just began. Some years back, probably when this issue was being dealt with in production boards I remember that a lot of epoxy boards came with vent plugs. I suppose this was to relieve the outgassing and as I recall some issues in traveling with epoxy boards and unpressurized baggage area in an airliner. I do remember how bummed my travel mate was when he forgot to reseal the vent plug (more than once :0{ ) during a trip. I’ve never owned epoxy, but have ridden half a dozen or so of handmade and Surftech types. Don’t know anything about Patagonia/PointBlanks boards. Tom S.
One small surboard shaping company’s surfboard I saw in an Encinitas,CA surf shop was an epoxy/extruded number…I think it was called Pulse… had several small vent holes on the deck, Open and non-closeable…kind of like pin-holes. The salesman said it was to let the surfboard breathe which, I guess, is a mechanism to deal with the theory of “out-gassing” and its influence on delamination. Now I do not understand the mechanism of of this “out-gassing” theory. If gasses are free to exchange through a small hole in the board/deck of an extruded blank, why cannot water get in? Now I don’t think water will get deeply or significantly into a board made of extruded foam(as opposed to Clark foam or standard expanded polystyrene) but I am suspicious that air/gass can freely exchange through the interstitium of the foam matrix or air cells but I could be wrong.
Hi Tom I’ve shaped up a board using XPS and then stalled the glassing process until I got more info from the XPS/Epoxy discussions here on Swaylocks. I’ve chatted with Greg Loehr on the phone and plan on ordering some of his epoxy soon…sounds like great stuff… but I’m still a bit concerned about the delam problem when using XPS…don’t want to glass this blank if it’s gonna fall apart after a season. From what I got of my conversation with Greg is that it’s only a small percentage of boards that delam, too many to be acceptable to the commercial builder, but would probably be fine for the backyard guys. He also mentioned that keeping boards in the car on hot Floridian days ain’t a good thing. I don’t think this’ll be a problem here in Canada, although it does get nasty hot in mid-summer. Anyway, I was hoping you might like to chat via email about this stuff and perhaps let me know how your tests are going. Many waves Dee
Dee: Absolutely, you can e-mail me anytime. I was just on my way out to see about the hotcoat on an XPS test board. I got wrapped up in this last week and made a hotwire setup, cut the rocker out on a piece of foam I’ve had laying around and put a stringer in it. I glassed it this past weekend and have just done the hotcoats. I used opaque pigment to cover flaws in the foam and so far this stuff looks interesting. Good luck with yours. Tom S. http://www.thirdcoastsurf.com