epxoy glassing & fin placement guidelines ??

General Discussion
1

I have my first homegrown blank waiting for shaping. Before I start in earnest, I wanted to compile a bunch of details on one or two pages that I could have on the wall for guidelines.  I’ve had more single fin boards than anything else and never worked with epoxy before, so much of this is what I have culled from a lot of reading here.Hopefully the tables will format ok, so its readable.

Please post up if you see errors in this data, so I can correct this info.

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**Epoxy Resin** mix 2:1

Add F ratio 1cc /1 oz hardener: (~30cc’s / oz)

 

Laminating resin amounts:

Board length             deck resin                  bottom resin              add. F

-----------------               --------------                   -----------------               -------

< 6’                              12-15                         9-12                            ~1/2oz

6-7’                             15-18                          12-15                          ~1/2oz

7-8’                             21-24                          18-21                          ~3/4oz

8-9’                             27-33                          24-27                          ~1oz

 

Hotcoat resin amounts:

A little more than 1oz / ft. & dbl the add. F

6’                                 7oz                              7oz                              ~1/2 oz

7’                                 9oz                              9oz                              ~3/4oz

8’                                 12oz                           12oz                           ~1oz

9’                                 15oz                           15oz                           ~1oz

 

**Fin Placement**

** **

**Single fin:**

Box - ~6” from end of tail. Side bites - 11-12” up, 1.25 from rail, toe like thruster.

 

**Truster:**

Center fin: 3-3.5” from tail

Forward fins: 10-11: from tail, box rear 1.25 off rail, toe-in adjusted for rocker..

Flatter rocker = more toe in, more rocker = less toe-in.

Run a straight edge from rear dot to stringer at nose then go out 1-2” & draw box / fin line

 

 

**Quad:**

Rear fins: 5-6” from tail tip, 2” from rail, toe like thruster

Front fins: 11-12” from tail tip, 1.25 from rail, toe to same point as rear

Alternate toe method – set fronts like thruster and set backs parallel to fronts

 

 

**Tail details:**

Swallow tail   – 2-2.5” butt crack

Fish tail          - 5” butt crack

 

For quads and thrusters add some Vee in the tail 12 to 16” up for added control

2

no add F in lam resin.  if mixing resin by weight its 25g resin to 11g hardener

3

Hmm… Really? That’s not what GL shows in his video…

4

2% add F for lams, helps wet out, and fill coat adheasion. listen to greg,

5

All sounds pretty reasonable, except that I question the rule, “flatter rocker, more toe-in; more rocker, less toe-in.” May work for some as a hard and fast rule, but I’m not tied to it as a general principle.

6

 

Coulda swore I read Greg say on here that it’s still 2:1 by weight as well.  Can anyone confirm?

7

Well like I said, I found this from someone else’s post. And I am certainly not looking for hard and fast rules, so if it is off base please elaborate. It actually sounds counter-intuitive to me, but what do I know…

The other side of this whole argument is the effect of overall length vs tail geometry. It would seem that the longer the board, the less the toe-in, but if the tail at 12" is fairly wide and then is pulled in at the tail end, I would think that you would want to increase the toe-in to match? Or is this totally wrong? This is obviously going to affect the lateral distance (“spread” if you will) between the fins and the sets on a quad. And I am not sure what effect that has. Anyone?

8

[quote="$1"]

[quote="$1"]

if mixing resin by weight its 25g resin to 11g hardener

[/quote]

 

Coulda swore I read Greg say on here that it's still 2:1 by weight as well.  Can anyone confirm?

[/quote]

Looks like it is 2 to 1 by volume and 100 to 45 by weight - based on their tech sheet -- link below

http://www.resinresearch.net/id8.html

Hope it helps,

yoyo

 

 

9

Additive F helps the flow of the epoxy, it also makes sanding easier, it also helps eliminate blushing.  Ok with that said, I never put additive F in my lams, I do use it in my hot coat.

Epoxy sands easier that poly resin...at least RR does?

As for you fin toe in. yes it does vary by the boards length. That's why we point them at the nose or off by a few inches. Most of the time the toe equates out to anywhere from 1/8 -1/4 toe.  You can pretty much be safe at 3/16.

You can off set these placements by adding rocker.  More rocker will allow you straighter fin placement....makes the board turn more on the rail....it all depends on the type of wave your surfing....you want fast? you want slow so it stays in a mushball pocket? You need to run away from a monster thats been challenging you for years? you need something slower that keep you from running out on the shoulder?   All this can be dialed in with fin placement.

Resin Research is 45 to 55, the epoxy is heavier than the hardner. Measure it by volume, but by weight works good at 50/50.  It's really not as touchy as people make it out to be.  Just make sure you try to measure as accurate as possible......but a few drops & squirts this side or that side will not kill the kick.   I think people get into trouble is when they mix the resin & hardner ratios backwards, also there is a shelf life to this stuff........12 months is getting old.   You might buy it from a retailer that has old product?....then your screwed.

Taste it for freshness

10

“Taste it for freshness”… LMAO That’s some funny sheit!

“More rocker will allow you striaghter fin placement…makes you turn more on the rail.” What makes you turn more on a rail, the rocker, the straighter placement, or the combination of the two? The reason I’m asking is because I (and you too, it seems) consider the wave more than the rocker for toe in. But I also consider the wave when I design the rocker, too. So… I might have flatter rocker for mushier waves, but also straighter fin placement to maximize speed. No speed, no turns. So for me, I like the combination of flatter rocker and less toe, along with curvier outline in the tail.

 

11

“Taste it for freshness” - that is funny.

But it brings up a good point. It’s probably a good idea to put a “buy” date on our resin containers so we’ll have a clue in 6 months about when we actually got it.

I really appreciate your insights on the toe-in question. Since I have to travel to get any waves, it makes sense to have several boards tuned to different waves types taking into account the info you so graciously posted. Thanks.

12

I've never had much sucess with flat rockered, toeless fin'd boards. I personally like to throw some water when I turn.  All my flat & toeless boards were faster than a greesed pig....but they ran out on to the shoulder way too fast, then they didn't want to turn and come back into the "fun zone".  I'd much rather set up rockery board with almost straight fins....give yourself a fighting chance to beat the shit out of the wave..........Nothing looks funnyier than a guy way out on the shoulder of a wave, with a perfect tube right behind him....It's like hey, drag you hand, stall, do something to fit into the proper position of the wave................slow down?

were talking about trifins here?...Right?  Not longboard tankers?

13

 

Nice, laughed out loud when I read that.

But yeah I’ve had a gallon sitting for just a month in the basement.  Go to use it and it’s practically solid.  Sticking it in front of a space heater seems to work for me to loosen it up enough to pour some out.  Can’t image what the stuff is like sitting for a year.

14

I’m curious, in general which is it that you see as doing more to prevent that greased pig effect - the rocker or the toe (either of which adjusted for conditions, board design and/or technique)?

kc

15

I kind of like the feeling of the greased pig… which sounds like a good name for a model - “It was only two foot, but I was killing it on my new 6’0 Greased Pig.”

I decrease the toe, decrease the cant, decrease the rocker (or do a deep single concave), keep the trailer where it is, but move the font fins forward and in a bit. This setup lets it get up and go quickly in small surf, but is snappy enough to still kick it around a little.

16

So, get rid of the thruster configuration and you’re partially on your way to …

 

 

kc

ps

just had to try out Mike’s embed video button… .

17

Crazy Hawkeyes…

18

both NJ and KC make very valid points....

i have posted on previous posts the importance to understand the fundamental design issues:

1) NO 2 BOARDS ARE IDENTICAL

2) NO 2 SURFERS ARE IDENTICAL

3) WE AS SURFERS ARE EVOLVING AND CHANGING ALL THE TIME - THIS IS EFFECTED BY AGE/ FITNESS AND FREQUENCY OF SURFS etc

4) SHAPERS ARE ALWAYS EVOLVING THEIR BASE SHAPING STYLES...

5) NO 2 WAVES ARE IDENTICAL (unless we are talking future wavepools...)

This all leaves me to question why more surfers and shapers don't use adjustability in their fin system to maximise and source the "sweet-spot" of every board for each surfer and for each wave....

 

to answer KC's question....

"I'm curious, in general which is it that you see as doing more to prevent that greased pig effect - the rocker or the toe (either of which adjusted for conditions, board design and/or technique)?

kc

 

The answer in my opinion is, a combination of OVERALL SHAPE (incl rocker/rails/thickness distribution etc), fin-shape, placement, toe, splay and THE SURFER and THE WAVES....

add this to the various manual processes of manufacturing a board....

and i think the only way we will ever truely understand shape and design is when we understand it's relation to our fins...

 

Adjustable fin systems should be a standard on any modern surfboard...!

 

that's my take...

hope this helps..

u can check it all out on our site...

 

cheerz

deano

 

 

 

19

First off, 4wfs is a nice product - very innovative.

Anyway, the following is just a thought… head on into Swaylopedia, scroll down a bit to the Add Glossary Term link and consider making a contribution. In particular, on toe-in and cant. Keithmelville has already got things going, but further comments are surely welcome.

It’s pretty obvious, at least to anyone who has watched the video on your site, that you’ve got some great practical experience on what works and when. No theorectical explanations would be necessary, just the practical (and generalized) knowledge. You’ve already got a nice glossary going on your site! Why not just transfer a lot of it over? But in particular, a lot of what is said in video regarding the what-and-whens on fin configurations would be a nice addition.

If you can just hold back on the marketing a bit, my guess is that you’re ‘goodwill’ cup will fill up a bit, if not runneth over. By the way, I’m not suggesting that marketing is a bad thing - it’s just a fact of life -  in fact we all do it, even in our personal lives, so I guess it’s just human, but the explicit plug will be there, as people will be able to see who made the contribution.

In fact, I don’t understand why more product people don’t do the same. Just keep the explicit marketing down to a tolerable minimum and keep the knowledge and practical advice up to a useful level. Really, no one is likely to get upset with a reference to a specific product, but there is a line which shouldn’t be crossed. Exactly where that line is, I don’t know, but like most, I’ll know it when I see it (or read it).

But even if your not inclined to contribute - nice product.

kc 

20

I use the 4w adjustable fin system and like it.  It’s allowed me to tune boards.  Having said that, I don’t muck with the settings once I like the feel.  I get optimal speed/looseness combo and stick with it in 2’ to 10’.  But I just want to get out there, not adjust things midsurf.

On my favourite design I found that the fin setting I liked best was 1/4" back from my normal and about 1/2" straighter.  It will be intereting to see how these measurements carry to an indentical board that has a round rather than pin tail.