I have been depressed ever since I saw the Rusty models at the Surftech & Rusty booths. The boards made by people who have never surfed almost outnumbered the surfboards built by surfers. BULLSHIT!
On a more positive note, Greg Noll, Lost, and Linden, say “No way”, to outsource production. God bless America. Stand up for America, speak out!
et tu, Brute!: And you also, Brutus. (Usually given as the last words of Julius Caesar, when he saw Brutus among his murderers.)
…thats the problem…
in the rest of the world are more surfers, shapers, board builders, resin factories, foam factories, etc than in the USA…so if you live in a BOX, you ll f…ed…
Rusty wouldn’t be in the position of outsoucing if American glass shops would offer better technology. The aeroplane is being replaced by the jet age and the American surfboard industry is watching from the sidelines. The real danger is that we’ll get so far behind that catching up will be more costly than we can afford.
I want America to win too, but America has to decide to compete. We have EVERYTHING that Cobra has at our disposal and many things they don’t have. Our “leaders” have decided to sign overseas contracts instead of supporting America by helping to develop better tech. That’s their choice and they’ll live or die with that decision. In the short term I think they’ll win. But long term remains to be seen.
I agree that this development is disappointing to see. I’ve personally outlined three or four products to Rusty himself and he hasn’t followed up on one. A few bucks thrown the way of r&d probably wouldn’t have killed him. Especially when it would have supported American industry and when you have someone right there feeding you the tech… WTF?
Watch on the horizon though … there are other things brewing. The playing field is about to be leveled in favor of domestic production. Not everyone is lieing down.
You must remember that not everyone who follows this site is American. And here’s news for you, not everyone in the world is American. I am, but I’ve lived 10 years overseas and believe my xenophobic box has been busted open.
Why is Surftech the object of such vehement objections? Instead of whining, people have simply to offer a better product at a better price. I remember when everyone was Japan bashing because of the import car invasion. well, that resulted in the American auto industry producing some better cars .We Americans are the ones pushing the market econmy on the world and yet have a hard time living up to our own ideals.
Finally, the fact that the person making my board doesn’t surf doesn’t really matter, if that person is a consumate craftsman. That’s heaps better than having a (drunk/stoned/sleepy/careless/surfstarved) surfer who can’t craft making my boards.
An actual surfer made these…
And, i’m only stoned some of the time…hehe…
Anyway, Greg knows…
18 months ago a customer of mine went from raving stoked about how good my boards went for him, to trading them in for Surftechs!
Yep, that hurt.
But I got up, with resolve to make a better product also. And I’ve ridden my new Epoxy EPS Balsa composite board. Oh, yeah, it works.
I never rode a surftech.
Speedneedle
Pop out paddleboards (hollow fiberglass from molds) were the thing 6 years ago - still are in some circles, but some hardcore paddleboarders I know have gone back to the same shapers that provided the original shapes for the molded and have ordered foam boards.
I have heard this same scenario here on this board where as beginners people will buy a surftech/tufflite/etc and after learning the ropes moves back to the fiberglass/foam version. The shapers who have gone surftech often say the see increases in orders for customs after they have “sold-out” - just recapping what I’ve read over the months on this board.
Ultimately it’s the consumer’s choice on what board he/she wants to buy and as a capitalist society, the makers have every right to try and make a buck.
Sickdog is exactly right … OK, replace American with “domestic” or “custom” because, in reality, that’s what we’re talking about. Whether it’s American, Australian, French, English or Martian, the custom built, finely crafted, domestically made product needs to be seen as the best thing you can buy. This is what is at stake. This is what we stand to lose by remaining on the sidelines.
The “leaders”, the ones with the marketing expertise, are going offshore because the domestic industries are failing to provide the products they need that will allow their businesses to grow. I personally would have liked to see them jump in and develop new product but the reality is they aren’t going to because they aren’t really board builders anymore. They are shapers … designers … marketeers. Getting ones hands dirty doing r&d isn’t for everyone.
Something you brought up sickdog is something all people need to realize. Being from a place, California, Hawaii, Australia, Florida or anywhere else on earth DOESN"T MAKE YOU BETTER THAN ANYONE ELSE!! There are people around the world that are just as smart, just as motivated, just as able as you are! If your thinking that because where you live is cool and that this will somehow insulate you from the rest of the world you have a very hard lesson in your very near future.
The demand is there for something better and if anyone needs more proof than Rusty’s ASR booth, then we all deserve to be mowing lawns in the near future.
Rusty’s production has a very simple, straightforward philosophy. They’ll make anything surfer’s ask for, or anything the shops that carry Rusty ask for. They ain’t pushin nothing - it is all about reacting to demand.
That is not an unreasonable philosophy for a player with a substantial marketshare, and growing in production. Presumably Rusty chose Surftech because he was sure it would lead to more sales. Also not an unreasonable philosophy.
I’m completely cool with the new technology and any doors it may open. But I find it hard to be super-critical of a major successful shaping outfit that decides what to pursue or not pursue based on demand. Businesses have to decide how they are going to survive, and R&D technologists that pursue excellence in the product will always fight the business people and their pursuit of the almighty dollar.
Two different goals, sometimes aligned, sometimes not. And sometimes people pursuing the two goals don’t see eye to eye. Also a natural occurrence.
On a more positive note, Greg Noll, Lost, and Linden, say "No way", to outsource production.
Seems to me that Lost is very involved in “outsourced” production. Seems they are signing deals with shapers from other countries, getting their plug into the computer, having the computer shape them in California, where they are finished by Lost guys. Of course this sort of thing has been going on since the beginning of foam boards. But it’s a form of “oursourcing” no? I’m also wondering who is making the Lost composite boards: if they aren’t doing it themselves, then they are outsourcing it. Not saying there is anything wrong with either of these practices: just calling for a clarification of Sickdog’s comments in light of this behavior.
BTW, on the xenophobia topic, there are many reasons that one could be against Surftech that have nothing to do with xenophobia. One could simply believe any of the following: their environmental record is unverifiable because of their location, their profit ratios are pro-business man and not pro-craftsman (i.e. the people actually making the boards make a much smaller percentage of the profits than in normal board production), their boards feel weird to surf.
Sooo…
Let’s just say that YOU are a domestic shaper looking for a contract glasser who does the full composite thing at a high level of quality control in large volume on a deadline.
Who you gonna call???
et tu, Brute!: And you also, Brutus. (Usually given as the last words of Julius Caesar, when he saw Brutus among his murderers.)
I was told: “Tu quoque, mi filii!”
And I would never have believed that I would use that someday in a surfboard oriented discussion… Swaylockians not only plane on a higher level, they chat on a higher level, too…
Sooo…
Let’s just say that YOU are a domestic shaper looking for a contract glasser who does the full composite thing at a high level of quality control in large volume on a deadline.
Who you gonna call???
Ghost Busters?
John,
you and Greg hit the nail on the head. Where are the local high tech custom surfboard builders? Unless you live in 2 or 3 specific locations they just don’t exist. So are more going to step up to the plate to compete with the changing marketplace or are they just going to fade away?
Let’s face it. We are all busy and our time is limited. I don’t mind spending time in my garage building the type of surfboard I want, but I enjoy surfing more. And if there was someone down the street offerring to make boards to the level I want, I would gladly pay them. If I had the choice, I’d rather spend more time in the water and less time in the garage. But right now, I don’t have that choice.
Right…there are few to no local composite custom builders. Even those that are around here only contract a few customs every year because at the price a local custom composite can be offered, few will choose it over a Pu/Pe board, even knowing the durability advantages. It takes too many hours to make them, a shaper makes more money using that time to make several Pu/Pe boards.
If Greg and/or Bert is hugely successful with the domestic composites, it will be because he has invented engineering methods to allow the composites to be built with a comparable number of labor hours as the Pu/Pe. And that will be a stroke of true genius.
BTW, our local hollow wood builder is making progress…15 hours per board now…8 pound shortboards and dropping…talk about environmentally friendly, his boards are wood, RR epoxy, and glass. He’s started taking orders, I can re-direct anyone interested.
The large volume seems to be handled by surftech types, even though they are not near the coast, and made by skilled yet relatively low paid, non-surfing workers.
I’m sure in most developed surfing and boardmaking nations there is a problem with finding legal, cheap, and experienced labour. The cost of living in these countries, and the legal workplace implications (minimum wages, conditions, etc) dictates the weekly paycheck necessary to survive in that environment.
The guys on this forum who are experimenting successfully with their own compsand boards are the ones gaining the experience. But I’m sure most of them don’t want to, and will not, go into a production workforce. Like me they would rather be surfing.
The alternative is to train people correctly, a cost that must be brunt by the boardmaking company wanting the higher production done locally. I don’t see too many people jumping at that, well no-one reading this forum anyway. I guess they don’t like taking several steps backward, particularly financially, before they leap forward.
There could be a more localised production line with compsand boards, however the old mindset of shaper, glasser, sander, polisher would have to be reorganised. There would be designers of course, but after that I can see skin makers, baggers, finishers, etc.
Most need not be surfers, just people wanting work. Trained, supervised and quality controlled correctly, all in a production line system. If the compsand techniques are aligned correctly with a trained and controlled workforce, there is no reason for these companies not to attain a reasonably high output, both in time and quality.
But before it ever happens in these so called developed surfing nations, there needs to be lots of time and money involved in organising, training and supervising. If there are companies out there willing to do that then they will reap the benefits in the long run.
And to top it off, the new company workers will have to take a drug test before they have a chance of being employed. Sneaking a little cone in the sanding room before taking off for a surf in the middle of the day will be the legendary stories of the past, or the luxury of the freedom of the backyard builder.
Choices, choices!!
Aloha! As for the “human resources” dept., I’ve literally burned up tens of thousands of samples in my company’s drug-testing program! Aloha…RH
Why is Surftech the object of such vehement objections? Instead of whining, people have simply to offer a better product at a better price. I remember when everyone was Japan bashing because of the import car invasion. well, that resulted in the American auto industry producing some better cars .We Americans are the ones pushing the market econmy on the world and yet have a hard time living up to our own ideals.
Finally, the fact that the person making my board doesn’t surf doesn’t really matter, if that person is a consumate craftsman. That’s heaps better than having a (drunk/stoned/sleepy/careless/surfstarved) surfer who can’t craft making my boards.
Surftech take some heat, because the production of those boards is about finding a way to make more money, by using fancy unfounded advertisment. They have turned surfboards into plastic playtoys that are nothing more than a comodity. Surftech is not a better product. It’s a different product. I have seen hand shaped epoxy that fits the bill as superior product, but it’s still because a shaper has a functional shape and knows how to apply new Tech in a superior fashion. The stuff surf tech is doing has been done on windsurfers for 25 years.
A person making my surfboard that doesn’t surf does matter to me. I custom order, and I don’t trust anyone that doesn’t surf to be able to relate to what I am trying to order, nor some salesman trying to sell the product’s greatness because of price.
I agree, American, Australian and other local board makers can fight it. They are the legends. They can turn the thing around over night, but not by joining the big money. In the end they will pay dearly for that one, because they will have given their designs, name and reputation to whoever the owner of the popout companies decides to sell to.
WOW!!!
so if im not mistaken , that means all the industry leaders have decided to brand generic pop outs …
that would be like sticking your label in a supermarket range …
short term profit , long term disaster …
yep thats the price you pay for not pushing technology boundries , and being seduced by industry propaganda …
how is the about face here ???
all these crew who for a genaration condemed the development of new concepts and showed no support for R&D are now climbing over one another to get the worst generic copy of technology that has already been around 15 years …
all these developments show clearly just how far behind they really are …
but what choice did rusty really have ??
i guess its just to easy when someone offers you a fat cheque and a contract to build your boards , short term profit , long term career jeopardy …
shows where there interests really are …
mow mow mow your lawn gently down the verge … you guys know the rest …
regards
BERT
The “leaders”, the ones with the marketing expertise, are going offshore because the domestic industries are failing to provide the products they need that will allow their businesses to grow. I personally would have liked to see them jump in and develop new product but the reality is they aren’t going to because they aren’t really board builders anymore. They are shapers … designers … marketeers. Getting ones hands dirty doing r&d isn’t for everyone.
How about the R&D guys getting their hands dirty with some marketing? Marketing is a bit of a dirty word here on Sways. But it shouldn’t be, and its an area boardbuilders need to think about/learn about. I get the impression from a few posts that people think marketing is about duping the ill- informed into buying inferior products. Technology is important, sure. You can use technology to make superior products and refine processes so you can make them economically, but you still need to sell them. That’s why you need to get a handle on the marketing side of things. Look at Dave Verral for example. He’s worked on his graphics a lot and developed this post-modern punk style that really differentiates his boards, he’s got onto the APS3000 and used it combined with a custom outlet to double his sales by really pushing customs.
Dude, I totally agree.
Here is my question to you all. Has anyone ever walked into a surf shop and drooled over a NerfTech! I have lost much spit looking at a new Velzy (god rest), those great new Calvani Bings etc. You just can’t touch those hand made boards. You can try to copy the shape 1 to 1 but the materials not the same ergo the feel (the weight, density etc) just is not there. It’s like a scooter, or a fat girl…they are fun to ride until your friend sees you on one.
Nuff Said