"et tu, Brute!" = Surftech Rusty @ ASR show

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I’d forgotten that old saying … makes the most sense of anything I’ve read here in a while. My other question remains; is styrene that effective at erasing memory? Perhaps it is …

I don’t know about styrene…but I can think of a few other things that do.

One of the things I wanted to talk about yesterday is “STYLE.” Greg, back in your heyday (no ageism intended here) I believe many accepted the credo “style is everything.” (Was it Rabbit that said that? not sure.) Anyway, I believe one of the reasons people are demanding retro shapes is that they want to see how it will impact their style. And I don’t mean on their outside ala Donovan, but rather effect the way they surf.

You have to admit that with modern, progessive designs, it’s damn hard to tell one pro from another. And the masses all tend to look alike. Thoses designs are definately limiting in the WAYS you can surf them to the greatest effect.

This is just me taking a crack at trying to answer the question of why people are demanding alternative designs, not why design rules are ignored.

Swaylock

Is there a basic general rules set for certain shapes or effects? Like nose riding, you need weight, nose channels or concave . … Compile a list? Thanks for letting us know about the fish, Greg. I’d always thought it was the keel fins and the flat bottoms, but with the v . . . now I know what to look for in a fish.

Since picking up surfing, I found it to be the most difficult thing I’ve done. Even flying a Cessna is easier than surfing.

One thing I’ve seen from the -er magazine . . . people are looking for ways to shortchange the system. They hope getting a ‘touted’ board will improve their surfing. But only practice will.

It’s funny people there recommend bonzers for mushy, slow so cal waves. And they say retro twin keels for fast, beach break barrels. Their main editor swears by style, saying ‘style never goes out of style’.

But style is perception, and based on some of the touted bonzers and fishes in the classifieds, ebay, and from lazy posters offering clues . . . they found out the hard way that your board doesn’t improve your surfing.

They say fishes are very hard to surf, a quote, “I’ve seen guys that rip on thrusters humbled by the fish”. My coworker, a long time snowboarder, and 7 year surf veteran said its cuz fish you have to ride like a longboard, mainly off your front foot. He said if you try to ride it like a thruster it will spin out . . .

One thing I’ve found about surfing (more than other sports), is ‘being cool’ over rules everything, even practicality. Even the mainstream public, the millions of people who ever don’t or won’t surf . . . has grown accustomed to ‘surfing is cool’ . And lots of surfers are the same. I first learned via college class (hey it’s SD), half the beginners (rich kids) got thruster boards. I had a longboard. I’ve seen guys paddle out with two zinc lines on there cheek under their eyes, but not cover the rest of their sunburnt skin. Or in 6 foot surf last week, guys had Hawaii pintail guns with double leashes and gaff helmets for beach break surf at high tide. My favorite is the awesome pinlined and bottom resin tint swirl bonzer (with enough square inches of fin to go on three 60’s skeg logs) big guy tri shape showing up at the beach break I frequent. It’s 3 foot mush, and he paddles out to sit. All morning.

I think this mentality (and the problem is these are people that have money to spend) is part what is making difficult for people to listen up to what Greg is saying.

That and, ‘This is they way its been done, so be it!’ There was a guy I knew, way into competition Tae Kwon Do. I saw him at the club, said whats up. He said, ‘Busy working the field,’ and commented I need to lose the glasses to pick up ‘chicks’ (hey I love electronica dance to, and so do the girls). He could kick the ball out of Shaq’s outstretched hands, jump kick over cars, do 10 punches in a second.

He upset some guys, and it went into combat. I debated about evening the odds, but the burly bouncer and his female terminator partner’s look made me ease up and go back to my group.

He got beat up by two multi stylist guys (did brazilian jujitsu and some variant of jeet kun do from what I saw). A. High kicks in close quarters in a bar with slippery floor from drinks and ‘chicks’ vomit won’t work (lower center of gravity = stable, learned that from surfing). B. He never learned how to fight or get out of multiple opponent scenarios. C. Grapple? Throw? What’s that? Well if the other guy knows it and you don’t, you’re screwed. I’m far from being a martial expert, but even I saw the solution . . .

A week later, he’s training very hard, still doing the same routine he thinks it was because his skills at his art. He never realized that he had to expand his martial repetoire . . . He wouldn’t listen to me. I was just that guy in glasses that showed up to meet up my friend in kung fu class.

Anycase I’m just rambling . … anyone know if there is a chance to demo Bert, or Greg’s boards? Or those new carbon fiber jobs . . . surf shops are too stingy to demo. . . .

Why retro boards?

I think there are two things going on, one is function the other is about fashion. Function - we’ve had something of a boom in surfing in the 90’s so a lot of learners are taking up the sport, at the same time we are seeing long time surfers getting older. Both groups want boards that paddle and catch waves better than the 90’s performance shortboard. Older guys who want to ride shortboards remember they caught more waves on the fat wide flat rockered twins, or fat long singles they rode when they were young.

Then you get the fashion effect kicking in. Look around you, the 70’s are being re-run in clothes and music. So 70’s boards become cool - young guys who are learning, can be seen with them and look cool - older guys can ride them and get more waves - you get demand for these shapes created by the intersection of fashion and the need for boards that paddle better and catch waves better. Shapers are just meeting that demand.

How can you get progression? - the demand for boards that paddle and catch waves better than performance shortboards is still there. Lightwieght compsand boards with perimeter stringers can meet that demand. With this type of construction you can go wider and flatter and still have performance. How to make them fashionable? who the fuck knows.

Surprised no one has brought this up . . . this is from the surfermag forum, nonetheless. Sometimes that joint has a few jems. I didn’t find this, I was surprised

http://www.ocweekly.com/ink/06/05/china-schou.php

here’s the other link: http://forum.surfermag.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB1&Number=834167&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

Now Lost is in. Merrick has gone Euro. Let’s see if he goes Asian too.

That’s just rediclious. Outsourcing is purely evil I must say. I wonder if these people in China, Vietnam…ect. know that the boards they are working on for $0.30 an hour are being sold for $300+ I bet they don’t, and I bet they’d shit themselves if they did. Personally, I am more then willing to pay the extra $50 or so that it cost to make a home-grown board. I don’t know why people have to be so cheap. I don’t have unlimited funds, in fact, I mostly have no money most of the time, but I do have standerds…too bad the majorty of us don’t.

Cheers,

Austin

I just found this quote in the current SURFER MAG NOVEMBER 05.

Article called DESIGN FORUM by Brad Melekian page 176.

The discussion is about what makes a shaper successful or popular. The premis is that “success is equal parts fashion and function”. To wit Mark Johnson of Hobie Surfboards says about the Kane Garden keel-finned fishes explosion in popularity; “YOU look at the Kane Garden guys and I think they’ve done it in a way that’s more grassroots, so that they have this word of mouth vibe. Do I think their twin-fins are better than anybody elses? Not really. But they have a very good underground buzz going.”

Which totally supports my claim! Underground vibe is not necessairily the key but one key to success in the surf industry. That doesn’t mean experience is not part of the formula. It is just as important and part of the overall balance.

The article goes on to say, "The grass roots buzz is par for the course for the Kane Garden crew who started as an underground crew of Fish riders in Sunset Cliffs. They (Pete Johnson and Larry Mabile) never stopped doing what they do, and so they’re pouring decades of experience into each craft, but still (Mark) Johnson’s point is well taken:

You’ve got to wonder if the end consumer knows the knowledge that goes into each board, or if he is just taking a look at the scores of KG logos washing up leashless on the shore and following suit."

Which supports both Greg’s position and the fact that maybe the Surftech explosion (80,000 boards this year) is because of beach exposure. And if all else is in tune, that too is an underground form of advertising.

Rhino, I know. I like to know that the board I buy is done by someone who know the local condition, they can shape for it. And by someone who can surf, or have surfers close by for feedback.

Mark, I’ve seen that too. I remember this one time in classifieds for surfer a year after the fish hype. I’d see KG’s being sold in there, some really new . . … Lots of people fell for that ‘underground vibe’ but then probably realized after their purchase that the retro twin fin fishes were not their thing.

Whats weird is Matt B of lost swore up and down against imports, building boards overseas. He told everyone to go local or hand shaped etc. He was the champion against surftech and chinese made surfboards. Now he’s doing it also.

Rusty . . . I remember few of their ads are ‘foam fiberglass fun’ to bank on the pu backlash against surftech.

Kinda the hypocritical thing to do. Stand for one thing, but switch as soon as the market demand swings in the other direction . . .

Ah well . . . going to start to gear where I can equip myself . . .

Hello Sickdog,

I don’t want to burst your bubble, but I personally know for a fact that Linden has other people shape his boards who don’t surf. I also know for a fact that Greg Noll son Ryan also has the same person shape his boards. It’s a sad fact to know that shapers have to go outside the USA to have boards made at 1/2 the cost. I have spoken to a surfboard foam company and they state that they may be pulling out of the market due to the fact that he could buy a truck load of finishedsurfboards, then he could just by making the foam.

I am not trying to put down Linden or Greg Noll, Its just that people should really watch what they say. I personally know the shapers that do the boards they are great guys they don’t surf but they do good work.

Aloha

surrfdaddy

FHFey mr. Bert… is it really the “new” material that you and Greg are so hot about that would have “saved” the whole domestic surfboard building industry?.. i think you fellows better go back to your international business class and take a refresher course on global manufacturing events of the last few years…My international business class teacher said it was all about the dollars that are spent on labor here in the first world as compared to there in the 3rd world… compare a shaper here in Hawaii getting $50 to say $100 per board to shape a 9 foot board , to a craftsman in china getting $3 to $6 a month to work 10 hours a day doing the same labor? THAT is what is taking the surfing industry offshore… not the materials that are used… in my opinion danny

no i dont need a refresher coarse …

yes cheap labour is the reason the manufacturing went off shore …

if you build something that is no different to that being imported at half the price , what have you got that is so special , ???

new technology keeps the industry one step ahead of imports …

i have orders backed up for a year , while a lot of the guys my age with similar time in the industry are closing there businesses …

i would say alot more crew out there would need a refresher coarse before i would …

regards

BERT

Bert, i think you’ve helped me realize what i’m trying to say… the whole industry is heading offshore because of the capitalist business model…that’s it… business, pu/pe was the start of this industry for most of us, or us old guys anyway, it is easy to “create” with these two materials…the mass of the business will go offshore, probably to styrofoam epoxy because of the cost, cost driven again, not fun driven…i started building surfboards in 1969, i had been dissapearing from school, work, family, “where’s danny?”, he disappeared to the beach again,now at the end of my career, still not making much money, doing the whole board myself still, i’m disappearing again and will be making a few pu/pe boards for a very few people probably, and still not making very much money!!!, cool! it makes me feel like a kid again!.. danny

Yikes, you sure about that?

“Then I went to buy Surfer Journal”


Any idea where it’s printed?

Oh boy, looks like you were riding in the time machine late last night! John, did you have the control knob on the 2 years ago setting?

Aus is the same, as soon as you start talking advanced composites their eyes start rolling into the back of there heads.

It will take me about 10 hours to read the rest of the posts. Just let me say that my first vacuum epoxy wood skin was performed with a vacuum cleaner in 1979 on the bottom of a sailboard.

Boardbumps

I agree it’s a shame the way the surfboard industry and especially the shapers are heading. It’s truly about the dollar and not the product. If it’s a superior product I don’t really care were it’s made as long as it’s also a responsible company. Surftech has a great marketing campaign and the money and resources to sell it’s product. But the technology is not new and as cutting edge as they make you believe (atleast 25 + yrs. old). P/U is also aerospace technology. Surtech and many molded boards use PVC sheet foam in the sandwich process which except for in the U.S. and a few other countries, PVC is banned because it is so toxic. Epoxy has it’s own problems too, they say it emits less voc’s than poly, true, but they don’t tell you it kicks alot slower than poly and in the end emits more voc’s because of it’s long gel times. Also it’s not from a organic compound and the body can’t process even small amounts, over time you will develop a allergic reaction to epoxy, that’s also a medical fact. On top of that which is not even scratching the surface, I have personally seen pictures from a few of the overseas factories from the major manufactures and in all of them none of the workers are wearing masks. Everyone from lamenators to sanders and airbrushers no one is properly protected. Some did have throw away masks and t-shirts though. I guess if you move your production over to China you won’t have to worry about air scrubbers or how you dispose of your toxic waste. They don’t and their country is on the verge of a enviromental catastrophe, that’s real responsible. I’ll gladly spend the extra dollar on a board built by real boardbuilders than on cheap overseas mass-produced surfboards. But that’s just me, support local economy, support your countries economy, support responsible companies & products.

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Sickdog is exactly right … OK, replace American with “domestic” or “custom” because, in reality, that’s what we’re talking about. Whether it’s American, Australian, French, English or Martian, the custom built, finely crafted, domestically made product needs to be seen as the best thing you can buy. This is what is at stake. This is what we stand to lose by remaining on the sidelines. They may not be seen as the best thing that can be bought because they get out hyped. Not because Surftech is some significant improvment or any improvment over poly. It’s not an American vs the world thing. It’s a look at reality vs bullsh. thing. The fact is this. Without human poverty…Surftechs and other outsourced products don’t get made. My ancestors used slaves to further their wealth…Slavery being outlawed in most of the civilized world means greedy business folk need other means. Namely emerging countries with low income. There is no doubt we are standing on the sidelines…but for the wrong reasons.

The “leaders”, the ones with the marketing expertise, are going offshore because the domestic industries are failing to provide the products they need that will allow their businesses to grow. I personally would have liked to see them jump in and develop new product but the reality is they aren’t going to because they aren’t really board builders anymore. They are shapers … designers … marketeers. Getting ones hands dirty doing r&d isn’t for everyone. I mostly agree with this. The surf industry is still using a no float twig for kids as it’s main way of promoting itself. Until they decide to grow up and get out of the fashion business they will be seen and rightfully so as a sport of punks. Nothing wrong with fashion either…it just has nothing to do with surfing.

Something you brought up sickdog is something all people need to realize. Being from a place, California, Hawaii, Australia, Florida or anywhere else on earth DOESN"T MAKE YOU BETTER THAN ANYONE ELSE!! There are people around the world that are just as smart, just as motivated, just as able as you are! If your thinking that because where you live is cool and that this will somehow insulate you from the rest of the world you have a very hard lesson in your very near future.

The demand is there for something better and if anyone needs more proof than Rusty’s ASR booth, then we all deserve to be mowing lawns in the near future. Rusty jumping on board means nothing. He sold out for money along time ago. I am not saying thats even wrong because most would like to switch places with him on the sucess side. However…he has proven nothing exept he has found in his mind a better way to make more jack. Not better tech. He has been shaping skinny twigs along with the rest as his main product. He is not innovative in the slightest only one of the leaders of the herd. The bull with a lounder bell so to speak.

I had the same thought. who’s going to cancel

I was talking to a friend the other day who’s in charge of production for Levi. He has a different perspective on offshore production. He takes a lot of slack from people thinking he’s promoting sweat shops. He says - the easiest job to train unskilled workes to do is sewing. He goes to impoverished lands and offers decent work conditions and pay for local workers. Sure… compared to US standards the pay sucks… but compared to what else is available to these people - this is an opportunity to have a better life. Places like Bangladesh where poverty is rampant, and there’s not much to live for… no future… he provides jobs that support entire regions in ways not otherwise possible. Americans won’t pay $100 for a pair of Levis, so making them domestically is out of the question. We want quality, and we want it cheap… we can’t do that here. He employs 64,000 workers in third-world countries around the world.

The only real difference with surfboards is… we think of them as objects of art and desire. How can you lust over something that was made by poeple who have no real clue about what they’re making? I can’t. The popularization and commercialization of surfing has spawned the asian phenominon. Something for everyone is now available.

Surfing’s popularity will fade (good luck with that), and no one will want popouts ever again (right). In the meantime, ride what works for you. You have “soul”, so you surfboard should have “soul” too. We can all exist in the same world. The cream will always rise to the top.

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I was talking to a friend the other day who’s in charge of production for Levi. He has a different perspective on offshore production. He takes a lot of slack from people thinking he’s promoting sweat shops. He says - the easiest job to train unskilled workes to do is sewing. He goes to impoverished lands and offers decent work conditions and pay for local workers. Sure… compared to US standards the pay sucks… but compared to what else is available to these people - this is an opportunity to have a better life. Places like Bangladesh where poverty is rampant, and there’s not much to live for… no future… he provides jobs that support entire regions in ways not otherwise possible. Americans won’t pay $100 for a pair of Levis, so making them domestically is out of the question. We want quality, and we want it cheap… we can’t do that here. He employs 64,000 workers in third-world countries around the world.

The only real difference with surfboards is… we think of them as objects of art and desire. How can you lust over something that was made by poeple who have no real clue about what they’re making? I can’t. The popularization and commercialization of surfing has spawned the asian phenominon. Something for everyone is now available.

Surfing’s popularity will fade (good luck with that), and no one will want popouts ever again (right). In the meantime, ride what works for you. You have “soul”, so you surfboard should have “soul” too. We can all exist in the same world. The cream will always rise to the top.

Good post Kendell,

I think it would be nice if these American or other companies would really pay them well and actually increase their standard of living instead of paying just higher than the bare minimum so they can rake in the profits. It could be argued that the slaves in the early U.S. had it better than their African counter parts many of which were also slaves of other tribes, but I think most would find that absurd. Slavery is done and was done for the same reasons outsourcing is done…to get work done cheap and increase profits because it wouldn’t be allowed in our own countries borders. It’s not done to help anyone in most cases. The only reason that usually gets brought up is so the folks doing it will feel better about doing it. I don’t down people for trying to stay in business either. Sometimes outsourcing is the only way to keep up with competition and stay in Business…but we know thats not why Rusty has done it I think.

I agree about the creme and I think Rusty left that level awhile ago. He certainly has the talent, but chose the path of riches and now riches at whatever cost. Like he does not already have enough. What the heck…maybe we all should join them.