Lol that’s not me in the photo. About 70 guys out up and down the beach when i got out. Foggy, cold (60 degree water) and big holes in the swell. No waves for 15 mintues then 10 wave flurry sets.
nothing to any one personally as im on both fences but it seems that the consequences of too much styrene is resistance to change and the consequences of epoxy contamination it a strong im completly right/others are totaly wrong syndrome…chill out guys…people buy what thier friends are having the most fun on…swaylocks is a board building site so its inherintly full of technicians and tinkers. they love playing with new things… eg balsa berts methods, fin systems etc…the real world is full of uneducated customers who have a relative trust in shapers…they have been burnt by fads before and want to spend thier money on established proven product…
Great point. I have been taking the long way around to make the same one myself. Your direct way says it better.
This is why I says surftechs and the like are not going to take over. Surfers whims, change like the tides. You can almost put money on it.
to most experienced surfers the bottom line in no real order is: Float, paddling ease, holding power and loosness.
I think the only reason most surfers over 25 ride todays thruster is to prove to everyone they can still hack it. I think those things for the most part are the biggest waste of money in surfing. For your everyday surfer. They never have cured their sticky ways.
I always liked four fins and wide tailed singles the best. Even when I was a kid.
Then what you are saying it’s a marketing issue and not a design issue, right? I think I hear the same sentiment from Solosurfer, too.
Marketing goes hand in hand with merchandising, advertising, and promotion, right?
Since this is a website dedicated to surfboard design and construction with probably the top 2% of the surfers (intelligence wise) in attendance it may not be the place for this discussion.
However, and this may seem off the point a little and maybe not even the best analogy but when gold was discovered in California in 1849, everyone knew but not everyone went.
I can shout it from the mountaintops and Greg can give the statistical evidence, but no one can force anyone to make a move towards it. When I say it’s great no one has to get defensive, because it’s not aimed at anyone in particular.
If I found gold would someone say I didn’t? And then follow that with paper money is better because that is what everyone else uses? That is what is sounds like to me.
If this dscussion is not design and construction specific it is markteting, promotion.
BTW Dave I found a link to your website on a Great Lakes website. You are everywhere. Very good promotion.
I personally enjoy these marketing discussions very much and learn much from both sides. Like I said there are very smart surfers here with eons of combined experience. I think it would be a shame to limit Swaylocks away from this kind of thing.
If this dscussion is not design and construction specific it is markteting, promotion.
personally enjoy these marketing discussions very much and learn much from both sides. Like I said there are very smart surfers here with eons of combined experience
Lunchtime fast pass and what Mark writes here catches my eye…these kind of discussions are invaluable to the surf world and the people who reside in Swaylock’sTown…recall or research Doc’s surf shop financial primer if you question this notion…in the media dominated world society we live in marketing and promotion have vast influence on design and construction by virtue of the media validating authority and information distributing controls. What you see pretty much is what you get, right? Can a 67 year old guy catch the wave of the day at Jeffries Bay wearing a woolen sportcoat and riding a lightweight wood board of his own shaping? That notion goes against all established thought in surfing concerning fashion, function, and age…you will not see it on the cover of marketing and promotion obsessed shorty surf magazines as they can’t make money off it.
I guess the point I was trying to make above was, why when something old comes back do we have to relive the whole sequence of events over again? When the retro fish came out, why didn’t we start at the Jobson Twinser? Why on earth did we go all the way back to the Lis Fish? Locbox states that many guys are now advancing the twins into fine tuned pieces of equipment which is great news. But why do they have to relive evolution a second (or maybe a third) time. Gee, after 3-4 years of evolution we’re just now getting to where Jobson was 12 years ago.
Slim … Surfboards go through evolution. When shapers put designs through an evolutionary process they get better boards. I’ve ridden a Lis Fish and I’ve ridden a Twinser. After riding a Twinser I would not be smiling riding the Lis Fish. And why do you think these guys are smiling riding that old POS … because they don’t know any better because they lack experience. Taking advantage of someones inexperience in other businesses is considered ripping people off. Now why on earth would ANYONE make a Lis Fish? Why would anyone make a board with two big ole wooden keels and a flat bottom when there is a more evolved version of the same thing? And don’t tell me there’s some “classic feel” I’m missing. If classic feel is tracking half way up a six foot face and going over the falls because the designer was too lazy to add a bit of vee, then NO THANKS!
The three fin is a more evolved version of the old 70’s single fin. Again, why would anyone be riding an old single fin when there are more evolved versions of the same thing. Must come from some surfoid self loathing that you would be that cruel to yourself.
There are good boards and bad boards. Some boards that were popular in the past SUCKED!! The better designs or other designs that had some special feel have evolved because they were worthy of being worked on. Doesn’t mean in any way that the originals were somehow better than the modern version. They weren’t and aren’t!
I know that speaking ill of the dead (ancient board designs) may not be a popular stand here. But I’m one of the guys who helped surfboards evolve through the last 30 years. We worked damn hard to make these things better. To see people talk as if there is some magic to something we evolved past long ago, in a way, negates all the work we did to get the things to where they are today. If we don’t recognize that today’s modern designs are the best ever built then we stand no chance of evolving to tomorrow. I don’t personally think that re-evolving over and over is the best way to use our creativity.
And why, in this sport, are only future boards treated skeptically while an old 70’s POS, that rides awful, revered?
Hi Greg, I guess the only thing it could be is that people enjoy viewing/feeling the evolution of design for themselves. It is more fun than just taking your word for it and jumping straight to the latest designs. We’re not going to run out of waves so there is plenty of time to see what all the boards of the past actually surfed like. Some guys get to a point where they find one of those past boards that surfs how they like for their current surfing ability and since they have no desire to surf any differently, stick with the old design boards.
I’m old enough and man enough to admit that I wouldn’t have any fun at all on the latest and greatest in thruster surf design appropriate for someone like Slater. I just don’t surf well enough and am not fit enough and don’t have good enough waves. I don’t switch to a thruster until it’s well overhead and then my board is 6’11 and I probably surf it a dozen times a year. Perhaps there are latest and greatest thruster designs for the guys like me who have surfed 20 years but don’t surf like a pro and live at crappy beach breaks. I just don’t know what these boards are. Everyone who is similar to me in ability, taste, and waves seems to talk about, and surf, twins and singles and boards like that instead.
many surfers like me, ride those “retro” shapes also for the pure fun of it, thier not out to prove anything,over the years there has been refinements in rockers,etc that have been applied to single fins, longboards, etc. some of these shapes border on being practical for the conditions, sometimes riding a modern truster gets boring, to me. to each his own
BTW, I know Greg said not to tell him about some “classic feel” the old (style) boards have, but they just do, don’t they? I mean, similarly, some of us prefer to drive old cars instead of the latest modern cars because we like the way old cars, like my '69 spider, drive.
I have to say I’m with Greg on this one. I don’t know about where other people surf but what really puzzles me is that the retro fish is IMHO just wrong for the kind of waves we usually have here in the South Bay of Los Angeles- usually hollow, semi closed out, often bottomless beach break. It’s hollow and closed out at low tide. And usually becomes shore pound at high tide, but still tends to be hollow. It’s not the Sunset Cliffs. I see guys heading down to the beach on those and shake my head- they must be slaves to fashion. Besides, didn’t I read some time ago that Steve Lis himself has “been there, done that” , and has moved on to other things?
Lis is still making fish outlined boards but most are quads. Gregg you still seem to be putting anything with a wider nose and wide swallow in the retro catorgory. What i’m trying to say is they’re not the same old board. Some guys are just remaking the same old board but they are the minority. They are shaping them to fill a demand. Quit riding mine two years ago. My partner Kasey Curtis just got a two page spread in happy mag blasting a 5 foot air at a right in the metawaiis. A functional air. On a pavel quad fish with a lost sticker on the bottom because he rides for them. He’s still getting paid to be a surfer, and friggen rips all over trestles/dana point on the thing IN CERTAIN CONDITIONS. He has 2 dozen thrusters, a retro keel fish (which he also quit riding a while ago) and a bonzer. If he goes somewhere with perfect peeling waves, especially point type waves, the quad fish goes in the bag. He says he’s 205 lbs, and in weaker surf he can go way faster on the fish. He turns it almost as good as the thruster, and gets barrelled all over salt creek on it. Sometimes he takes out when it gets big just to see if he can.And trust me he does. Pro surfers are funny like that. Said it’s taught him alot about controlling you board because the speed is rediculous. He’ll only ride a classic longboard at doheny or san-0 so this board fills a void for everything between that and surf good enough to get his big frame going on his 6’3 thruster. Next time your out here look me up and we’ll go surf. It seems like until you see it (and ride it) yourself your not gonna accept it. Most of his ripper buddies have added one to their quiver because of what they’ve seen him do on it…
You guys still aren’t getting what I’m saying. Let me be clearer. There are certain rules we learned about how to make certain designs work better. For instance, twinnies get vees. You can shape them other ways but you’ll get mixed (and generally bad) results. Doesn’t mean they don’t ride, just means they don’t ride good. Why is this just being discovered again now, after we KNEW this was right in 1980? Many of the shapers that are making twinnies now are still making flat bottoms and their old enough to know the rules. Does no one remember the basic rules? These boards SUCK!
With single fins, we found in the 70’s that they work best with concave tails. More lift and drive for a design that lacks lift and drive. So when everybody came out with the new retro single they made them with vees. These boards are less than they should be. They SUCK! Is styrene that potent at erasing memory?
The modern version of the 70’s single fin is the modern three fin. Many here say they couldn’t ride a modern KS three fin. I’m right there with you. But I ride a 7’6" version that rides infinately better than the retro single. And how many of you have even tried this? Why are we building retro when we can go forward?
I’ve riden TONS of twinnies. After riding a Twinser I know how they should be built. How many here have ridden a Twinser? Why isn’t enery manufacturer making twins making them Twinsers? It’s more evolved. They ride better … WAYYYYYY better.
Why on earth do we have to continue to re-evolve designs? Is there no creativity left to pick up an older design and move it forward from where it was left off? Evolve a Twinser shape into the 21st century instead of picking up something from 1970.
Why on earth do we have to continue to re-evolve designs?
Does this make what I’m saying clearer?
Greg, that’s easy:
The reason the design rules you talk about get ignored is because most consumers (and undoubtably many shapers) don’t know them. You know the old saying about those who ignore history.
That doesn’t explain why consumers are demanding “retro” designs. I believe that is a different discussion with many influences many of which are completely legitimate. Unfortunately I don’t have time to get into them right now.
The reason the design rules you talk about get ignored is because most consumers (and undoubtably many shapers) don’t know them. You know the old saying about those who ignore history.
I’d forgotten that old saying … makes the most sense of anything I’ve read here in a while. My other question remains; is styrene that effective at erasing memory? Perhaps it is …
