finless...

…there has been a young guy [about 20?] in the water here for the last four days ,

riding what was evidently a 1970s single fin , around 6’2 ,

without any fin

first wave he got tubed on , came out , did a cutty ,

bottom tuned then spun a few three sixtys in a row

i think he must have been watching ‘freakside’ [the jamie o’ dvd]

next time he’s out there i’ll have a chat to him

i’m resting today

the ol’ body has been overworked the last few days . sunburnt too…

luckily the surf is nearly non-existent today , so hopefulkly i’ll get to work on some fins …

cheers !

ben

MS…BTW, golf balls have dimples in them for one reason…to stabilize them going through the air. If they didn’t have dimples they would be squirrley as hell and probably kill a good percentage of the other golfers out there…forget having a bad slice like Gerald Ford…w/o dimples it would be a bloody free for all out there resembling Roller Ball.

Me and Gerry both. And Ford was probably the best athlete among all the past presidents…not including the current president elect.

But what do you think is the purpose of having retractable denticles?

I have my thoughts… what are yours?

Agreed…President Ford was a gifted college football player receiving the top award twice. Quite a few other presidents played football and were good but nothing like Ford. He was also underappreciated as a president. Yeah, the current lame duck is lame but I’ll give him credit for being active…and then it stops there.

Denticles? Okay, new term for me…ahhhhh, you mean creating small conical shaped teeth along the bottom of the entire board to create traction thereby allowing for direction for a surfboard or similar.

Unfortunately a denticle has to be so big as to penetrate the boundary layer. If it is to be effective, it probably becomes more appropriately called a fin, or fins. The board in this thread that started it all basically has built in keels…a type of fin or fins…an Auga board has such deep channels that we could say t is finless but I would argue that the channel configs denote a fin…some guys have tried true finless boards by incorporating a waist cut like snowskiis. You can stand on paipos and Aliai (or however you spell it) and they are so thin that the thin rail cuts into the water offering some fin like directional ability. Surf skis use the paddles for fin direction.

Fins slow the board down and offer direction thru resistance…wherever you have a fin you have resistance. You can also have lift. It get complicated from here on out…I did a lot with fins during the windsurfing boom learning all about profiles, cords, aspect, foils, tension, laminar flow, canards, slots, flex, on and on…think I better go shape now.

Denticles are the microscopic “tooth like” structures that give shark skin that rough feel. I was thinking about shark denticles more in terms of how they are used by the sharks. It’s important to determine their use in nature, before applying the technology to man made things, or before I would even consider how they might be applied to surfboards. The link I previously posted is new research saying the shark can manipulate the denticles to either protrude or retract. What purpose can best be served by each configuration?

Regarding the boundary layer there are extensive

archived discussions. But to save time it’s very thin.

What’s “very thin”…the boundary layer.

Ok, then try the entire bottom of a surfboard with tiny little, er. denticles, and go for a big turn…then we will watch you spin out.

The shark thing is truly fascinating however.

The boundayer layer is the water that is immediately adjacent to the surface moving through it.

I like your hypothesis that the board would spin out.

In fact I support your hypotsis.

But why? Why would my board spinout?

And is spin out all it would do?

Because my hypothesis includes unfettered motion in every

possible direction making even the motion of standing up nearly impossible.

But why?

I’m looking for some fresh insight. Mine is a little stale.

.a quickie from Cabo…spins out becuz it hasta penetrate the boundary layer…that’s why jet’s have tails…thank god becuz if they didn’t Nicky Hilton and her enoturage along with me and everyone else would never have made Cabo yesterday…

there are a multitude of other dynamics going on but I don’t have time to go into it right now…gotta some fish tacos, a cold beer and a jet ski waiting for me and you know how tough a schedule that can be.

As far as the finless guys of yesteryear, just remember they would dangle a foot over to steer wherever they wanted to go…that worked quite well in the ‘pure’ days off Waikiki!

Adios…DS at large.

Shaped by Derek Hynd, note the asymmetrical bottom contours. Guessing this was in anticipation of it mainly being used at Bells.

http://safetosea.blogspot.com/2008/11/as-i-said-in-yesterdays-post-i-nipped.html

Enjoy your vaca with Nicky…

We’re all envious.

Catch you later.

Dos cervezas por favor…

Quote:

…there has been a young guy [about 20?] in the water here for the last four days ,

riding what was evidently a 1970s single fin , around 6’2 ,

without any fin

first wave he got tubed on , came out , did a cutty ,

bottom tuned then spun a few three sixtys in a row

nice. Get some shots of the board as well, if you get a chance.

Pat

Yeah, don’t envy me too much…her hubby or beau or whatever was old enough to be her great grandfather…typical.

All these ‘rich n famous people’ bumped me out of my first class “non-rev” seat that fly for little to nothing but it is space available…so some of them took the space and then the rest of them were back in coach. At least the flight crew felt for me and offered me the bulkhead right behind F/C with a ton of leg room…only problem with that is I had to listen to all their ‘privileged class banter’.

Ah well, maybe some of their mansions are gone iin the fire (just joking).

Aloha er, adios…

Guess the guy doesn’t know he is s’posed to be spinning out…perhaps he is in another dimensional reality much like shizoprhenics may experience.

What is reality anyway?

I by no means an expert in physics or hydrodynamics, but from what I can see on the bondo board is that the water flow, over the sharp edge of the main middle chanel (edge perpendicular to the board) and sharp edges of the smaller gouges on the rail, generates vacuum, and so the board is pressed into water by atmospheric pressure? School science laboratories use similar concepts to easyly generate vacuums by having water running out of the tap past a perpendiculary connected tube, the water drags the air out of te tube and so a vacuum is generated. Is that close? Or did I overthink it?

Great stuff. Would love to have a crack at it!

Kon

I gotta chime in again since this thread is still alive.

Several posters have referred to fins that create “drag”. At the risk of being labeled an engineer (I are), I have to note that the purpose of a fin is NOT to create drag. Drag is a (mostly) unintended consequence of any disturbance in the way the water “wants” to flow. Water in any given situation will “want” to flow in a manner that loses the greatest amount of energy in the least time. If you try to modify or change that flow, it will cost energy, hence create what is felt as drag. “Strange” bottom contours modify water flow and thus create drag. Side note… those channels, grooves, golf balls, whatever are mostly within the boundary layer and thus not as significant as they would be if not with the BL.

The trick for a fin is to create the least amount of drag, while still having sufficient depth to get some effectiveness. None of this is useful if you want a board that sideslips, slides ass, whirlybirds, helicopters or whatever.

So much for fins with respect to drag. What then, are they “supposed” to do? Fins give the board a direction by allowing passing water to flow only parallel to the fin.

To create “lift” the fin has to penetrate the boundary layer. Recall that the BL is water traveling more or less with the board. Put another way, in the BL the water is not flowing past the board at the overall over-water speed the board is moving. Any proturbance in the BL will not be fully effective. Example: many small fins, or “strange” bottom contours which do not penetrate the BL will not be as effective as fewer fin of the same total area, penetrating the BL.

Again… an ideal control device (fin, bottom contour, whatever) would create minimum drag, yet create the greatest side force when called upon, in a location where it produced the greatest result. In simple terms, other things equal, the smallest-area single fin, placed farthest back, creates greatest leverage. Demands for other aspects of performance will modify this…

But don’t talk of fins in terms of drag unless you want to discuss loss of total available speed. That’s about the only place where discussion of drag is relevant. Fins are not intended to create drag.

Thanks Charlie,

I had no idea what that BL was really…

Good words. Much appreciated.

 

My contribution.

 

I was inspired by this thread a while back and had a blank sitting around
with lines all over it begging for my attention. This board is 2.0# EPS the
rocker is that of a 62c nose and a flat tail with no deck flow ( i will explain
). Glassed too light, final weight is under 3.5lbs. double 4 deck single 4
bottom.

 

If you cannot tell from the pictures there is a pretty heavy deck concave, I
like this alot since I have flatter feet and I feel it gives me more paddle
power. The rail groves are a great addition for holding the board in place on
takeoff. The railshape is extremely hard, razor edge hard, feels like it is
cutting my arm… hard. I feel at this point that the hard rail is the main
control factor in the board.

Bottom: The rocker is a 62c nose, Tail rocker is minimal but there is about
a 1 5/8 V to the rails. That middle channel runs right through the V and the
two side channels on the outter edge of the V, leaving the two elevated points
(looking back at this I think I should move the side channels closer to the
rail line, like bob miller’s, but at the time I did not want to disturb the hard rail chine, which
runs the length of the bottom).

Overall it works great, I thought on my first paddle out there was no way I
would ride it again without a fin but after about 20 min of flailing I was
pulling controlled spins and slide maneuvers. I had been riding it in 1 to 3 ft
mush NFL waves which it is very fun in. Super easy to pull in and out in the
mush but gets a little bit touchy on larger more powerful faces (expected). Best
wave in the past week was a small 3ft line, 3 separate full spins and finished
off with what minimal pump I could give it and a backwards sprinkler on the lip
(spinning seems to give the most speed). In the chop that super V helps out
alot, last session on it ended with my attempts at kick flipping. Like I said
it was glassed a little too light and now I have a few dings to repair on the
bottom side where my foot planted - currently having flashbacks of glassing and
sanding induced terror…



hello. here's an interesting page with pics of derek hynd and friends surfing different crafts. it seems like they're goin to play a big part in Jack Mccoy's next film, 'deeper shade of blue'.

Ha, forgot to include the link. here it is:

http://www.surfline.com/surf-news/deeper-shade-of-blue-introducing-jack-mccoys-newest-film_29331/1/

 

now that is hot!

 

I’m totally into the way my incut fish are performing, and this has just added fuel to the experimental fire…that is absolutely stunning work.

 

Going to have to give one a go now, thanks!