finless...

General Discussion
81

Im interested in why shapers are using channels to give grip, be they thin and deep or wide and shallow, and they all run out the tail ?

 And apart from the odd rail hack, isnt anyone trying to replicate the effect of a fin through the design of a concavity.

Maybe something that isnt a channel but a unique concave that forms a void into the underside of the blank that replicates the properties of fin design.

 Depth, rake, base, toe in or more loosely for concavities... introduction, volume, hold and release.

 Anyone interested ?

82

Insane stuff in this thread - how could I have missed this one?  Looks like I know where the next build is taking me . . .

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You can tell me Im off track, but instead of using channels , this is what Ive been mucking around with to replicate a similar effect to using fins.[img_assist|nid=1046655|title=channel|desc=|link=none|align=right|width=0|height=0]

I just break a fin down into several arbitrary parts, it has a start point that initiates contact with the water, a clear base length and it stops at some point.

 And to copy that into a void I start the 'void-fin'?, channel-fin?, "ch-in"?, at some point, increasing its depth and width to encourage and accomodate the induction of water flow.

 I give it a continued depth the continue the flow along the channels maximum depth.

 And then theres an area where I terminate the volume of flow to give it the same effect as a fin, so the resistance of the void acts a a fulcrum for resistance rather than an elongated wall of drag like a standard channel.[img_assist|nid=1046656|title=channelsd|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=0|height=0]

The idea of putting a channel onto only one side of a symmetrical board is so I can swap ends on each wave to test the effect.[img_assist|nid=1046657|title=channles|desc=|link=none|align=right|width=0|height=0]

Ive played with the shape of the void, the width and volume.[img_assist|nid=1046658|title=channelsa|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=0|height=0]

  The void needs to smoothly allow water to flow into the void with respect to the entry angles into the void, and a useful depth for hold but the greatest influence is in the release of the water flow. 

 Im not  fully happy with the tests, but Im a lot closer to getting it to work and feel similar to a fin.

[img_assist|nid=1046659|title=channelsf|desc=|link=none|align=center|width=0|height=0]

 

I havent really explained it well.

84

 

Was way too stoked on the finless concept and decided to make my first foam board I’ve ever shaped/made completely, a finless based on Hynd’s and Brian’s above.  Rode it and was blown away at the feeling of sliding without fins.  The speed was nothing like a finned board - super fast.  Guys around me even commented how fast it went!  Getting it going in the direction I wanted was a challenge but was able to get it going front and back side during the first surf session on it.  Love riding it!  Stoked!  Here are a few pics.

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How beautiful is that !

86

I’ve watched two interesting videos of finless surfing (I wish I had the links); some guy in Hawai’i who pulled the fins off a pretty standard looking thruster; and Derek Hynd in sizeable Supertubes.  The guy in Hawai’i was riding really hollow beachbreak about head high and ripping it like he was riding a thruster; hard off the bottom, vertical lip attacks and tube rides with never a wobble or slip.  Derek was riding a special finless (although I don’t know if it had flutes and whistles).  He was staying way ahead of the pocket and spinning 360’s galore.  However, he had to nurse all of his bottom turns and cutbacks.  He is passed by a guy on a standard thruster.

Bottom line…It doesn’t seem like the complex bottoms perform better (maybe even worse) than a regular old flat bottom.  While they may seem to be faster than a finned board to the rider, on the beach, they don’t seem to be any faster than a regular board.  Maybe the wave size has something to do with it also.  If you like riding waaayyyy out on the shoulder (ala Roy) they look like they work better than a finned board.  The alias seem pretty fast from the beach on knee high waves but add some size and the thrill is gone…

87

Your point about 'size' is a good one... but I'm not sure it begins at the waist.

 

 

 

The thing about going finless (in appropriate conditions, whatever those limits are ultimately are found to be) is that it requires a slightly different approach to template (plane-shape), rails, bottom contours, and possibly even materials. I think Morey got it right, as do the skimboarders that make it into shorebreak. The point being that whereas simply taking the fins off a board can definitely be called going finless, it's not likely to make for an optimal finless board. Nor would just trying to restore fin function by emulating fins via some channel, slot, ridge, etc.

Morey's 'the One' has got the rider on something close to a mimimal planing surface, the shape of which, I suspect, is very response to the merest shift in weight – small changes producing sufficient changes in bottom orientation and rail presentation. Given his design, producing the right torques via body movement, weight shifts, etc. are likely to be far closer to what is eventually found to be optimum.

Mind you, acquired skill is likely to be key too. That loss of stability is bound to put you in a more defensive posture until you " retrain" your reflexes. If you check out the Deeper Shade of Blue link you'll notice that the riders keep their centers of gravity really low. Which is hardly the case for Bryan in the above video. Still, even given that, I'm incline to believe that Morey's strategy is probably more optimal given the changed dynamics – the loss of that (passive) stability and control function by removal of the fin(s), forcing fin function to become a matter of technique on the right instrument, which is more likely closer to Morey's solution (and skimboarders, etc.).

 

I know I'm saving my pennies up for a 'The One'... or something in a single malt... haven't decided yet.

kc

88

Wakeboard bottoms from 10+ years ago being applied to surfboards.

89

No question that guy is ripping it up on "The One".  But is he doing anything on a wave better or differenty than someone on a finned board.  Is he going faster or making sections that a finned board would not?  My contention is that he is not.  In some limited conditions, a finless board or mat might actualy perform "better" than a finned board, but on the whole, Blake/Greenough/Lis/Anderson were on to something...

If you are talking about how a finless board or mat feels or gives feedback to the rider, then that is a whole different deal.

 

The kid sure is hot and knows how to work a rail.  I'm in awe.

90

arsenpro, beautiful job… wow.  please inform the lot of us on how that thing rides.

91

Anyone have any info on the “one” board?

railshape?bottom?

Looks to be like an eggy wakesurfboard…

 

sweet finless arsenpro!

92

it is nice to see this thread having so much interest these days.  

after riding these boards in a lot of different conditions and sizes i do have some conclusion that they don’t work… that is, only if you want them to ride the same or better than finned boards.

if not, then they rip!  just a totally different sensation and vibe of finding that place where your sliding out and in; controlling that drift.

whatever they are so much fun.

alaia’s do seem to me to have more control than the three foam boards but, pretty hard to paddle a piece of wood through a kelp forest with current; whereas the slab of fish thing sits so high on the water that you would not even know that there was kelp there besides your hands touching it.

the original clear board is still my favorite.  for what its worth i think it works the best; it was also the thinnest of the three…

i don’t pretend to claim anything; just a kook with a piece of foam out in the ocean.

have fun!

 

 

93

 

I agree with Brian regarding the board doesn’t work like a finned board.  it’s a completely different ride.  It’s about controlling the drift.  When you drop in on a wave with a finned board you kinda know what to expect when the fin and rail engages during the drop and bottom turn.  With finless it’s a completely different experience.  The first wave I caught with my board felt like I was on a carpet with marbles under it, just sliding in every which direction, until you get back on the tail and let it and the rail engage and your able to control the direction of your slide.  I rode the board on waves from knee to steeper shoulder high my first day.  The steeper the wave the more out of control I felt, since that was the first time taking it out.  In the video’s I saw Hynd riding at JBay were good sized and he had it dialed.  At first I rode it squating down, using my hand to stall and keep myself stabilized, but after several successful rides was able to stand up more erect and not use my hand in the wave and just focused on mainting a line.  After surfing for years on finned boards and surfing the finless with each successful ride I’d be laughing like a little kid upon kick out because it just felt so different.  To me that’s what surfing is all about, blowing my own mind and pushing my surfing.  I don’t care what I look like out there I just want to experience something different.  So, you can’t quite compare a finless PU/PE board to one with fins - bottom line.  The Morey board I’m assuming is kinda like a bogey board in regards to materials and plane shape that’s why it works insane from what I saw in the video. I made an alaia earlier this year and love riding it prone.  I agree the thing doesn’t float and catching waves is super challenging.  I was stoked on the finless concept because it’s like a modern day alaia.  After seeing the Morey board I believe it’s closer to a modern alaia then a PU/PE board due to it’s dynamic rocker, etc.  A buddy of mine took some pics of my riding my board that first day but hasn’t sent them over yet.  When I get them I’ll post.  After I ride my finless board more I’ll provide input.  Also, I live on Florida’s Central Gulf Coast.  Our waves…SUCK…at least most of the time.  I ultimately wanted a board which would stoke me out and be a challenge to surf in the poop waves we do get.

94

See the Catch Surf site for some rough figures. There are various shots of the board from different angles there too.

Morey’s materials are also sort of neat. I believe his uses the same foam in some of his products as that used in car bumpers - or some like that - which might makes sense in this product - until you get up to speed (skill-wise) you’d probably experience a few high speed crashes… but maybe that would be part of the fun of it.

kc

95

Motif - unreal shapes you’re a true sculptor…

This thread reminds me of '73. I had just gotten back from 2 years in OZ. Tom Morey had published some articles on unconventional hulls, mostly concaves etc. So I built my one and only black board, all concaves even the rails, but I added my own touch - an airfoil. I only got to surf it a couple of times but that thing flew, very skatey. What a fun board. Then it got stolen. I had no money then so I had to borrow a board for a year. Perhaps its time to resurrect that board.

anyway back on topic - thanks this is inspirational

96

Mr. Bob Miller was the shaper of the two finless boards.  We worked together in the shaping bay; I drew out the templates and where to put the channels and how deep but, it was Bob who did the shaping.  I did the glassing and sanding for both boards.

The bondo board was a already finished prototype that was to be scanned and the fin boxes were filled in (?).  The board sat around the shop forever before I asked Bob if I could take the grinder to it.  

Ah all those memories of sanding… lots of sanding…

97

excuse my naive post here, but all of this seems to deal solely on bottom contours… is there no significance to the way the water moves around the rail and over the deck?

if you look at video of alaias from under water, you can see how far the rail penetrates into the face, and to a small degree the water flowing around/over the rear of the board, thus holding the tail in place.

loggers have been adding concaves/spoons to the tails for ages now to allow longer noserides, so why not use this for finless boards?

like i said, this may be totally naive, but I’ve been playing with incuts on my fish for a while now, and doing research into the history of reverse curves. I have seen lots of fluting going on the deck to improve hold. Surely his would help…?

98

Supers in Jeffreys Bay. Based bottom contour on photos similar to the ones in this post.

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Something strange has happened in my garage. This board evolved while it was being shaped over two days time. I really had no control over it. It’s probably still evolving out there right now by itself.

 

 I’ve had this blank sittin’ around for six months or so. Surf Blanks Amexico 6’4 yellow density, sin stringer. Had no real interest in the blank size and shape, and the stringerless
notion was not in my bag o’ tricks either. So it sat for a while, kinda
sad that it was just sitting. I didn’t have money for a blank last weekend 'cause I shaped six and glassed three in the last two months. I started checkin the flex on good 'ole Yeller. The only thing I could think of for myself was to go finless with it. Found a cheap curve and went with it. Tried to utilize most foam for,   float? I don’t know. Skinned it. Single con deep style in the back. Then tri-plane hullished the front half. After that…I don’t know. Autopilot. Auto evolve.

   I got a lot more shots if anyone feels the stoke. Never-shaped finless-rode finless-shaped stringerless-all new to me. Stoke is there. Stoke is here. That was the most fun I’ve had shaping a surfboard. Holy crap. Not sure what to say or how to feel.

 I would be stoked to hear any feedback, comments, ideas, advice, about this thinga majig. I got a lot of ideas from this thread which I read in full this morning. Hence the rail channels getting bigger in the photos. Thanks for watchin’.

 

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