Firewire in Asia take Two: Bert's boards made In Asia

Industry Talk
1

So I was at my local surf/skate/snow retailer and I picked up the most recent Transworld Business mag to find out what’s really happening in the world… there I read that Firewire is going oversees for the majority of their production. Greg, Bert, is this true?

I was all stoked to see the ‘franchise’ idea take off that Bert mentioned years ago. I wanted a job at one of those factories. Should I keep planning on moving to China if I want to have a job building boards of any kind in the future? I know there are a few snowboard factories still ruling it here, but now that Bert and Greg have succumbed, my hopes for the profitable U.S.A surfboard/skateboard factory are out the door.

Maybe there will still be opportunity for the small time bussinessperson/craftsperson if they can appeal to every possible customizable aspect of surf design (including construction type) and produce a reasonably durable product with in a reasonable timeframe, for a reasonable cost, while somehow staying reasonably afloat in a sea of big businesses flooding the market with unbelievable numbers of copycat superboards. Am I up for the challenge…? While the idea of having “some” boards made here in the states, and “some (more)” boards made in Asia sounds cool and all, its completely obvious that Nev and Bert and Greg want to give Surftech some competition (Shoots, they’re probably having pissing contests off of the Cobra Factory roof as we speak).

There’s nothing wrong with a little good old healthy competition between two powerhouse companies, its usually good for an industry. I’m just worried that it will be a little too good for the industry once Firewire starts producing better boards for less money. Surftech was fine with me cause they rode like crap. Now I’m afraid that once we get something that works better out of Asia, there will be no going back. There will be no reason to go hunt down some small time living legend for a custom board. That makes me want to change careers.

Thanks for everything you have done here Greg and Bert. You’ve inspired a lot of people, like myself, to start making their own boards stronger, with better and cleaner materials and better design. I’d venture to say that you’ve inspired a lot of people to dream about starting their own small businesses making and selling these boards, like the blokes in the U.K. that everyone’s been bagging on. I wanted to be a member of the Bert Berger knockoff generation too. Now I’m not so sure I can compete. Firewire won’t be the last company to start making killer boards out of Asia…

Now I think I know what Luke Skywalker felt like when he found out that his famous warrior father had eventually turned to the Dark Side and become Darth Vedar. It’s a bummer, I’m going surfing.

2

somebody needs a geography lesson.

All they need is a business plan and the desire to do it, but I’d bet keeping things small is more their style.

3

who is fire wire?

when the worlt view

has to do

with mass marketing to the likes

of who?

maybe your market share has to do

with your next bmw

is an unfortunate

boo hoo who.

but where artisanship

is the deridgable of your dreams

flying high o’r the stadium

of glory days…only the task at hand

barly visable from the grandstand

is a driving force worthy of higher minded

ampersands.

Mercantilism is the ilk of being awakened by a ‘customer’

on eeaster sunday and wheedeling

about the credit on a returned board

applied in full or part for a new board

and full tilt into aw come on tactix

after retaining the board for over a month.

retail is hellish

adversarial relationships between

entities in a transaction are tiresome and

in the long run less satisfying to all the parties involved.

china made any thing and everything

will slowly lose it’s atraction

as the parties are deprived the interaction

the grandness of the go back

to visit the people and the shop

that made the board will be lost forever.

imagine reminiscing…

the day I bought my first surf boart

at valemartzin the pescadero galleria

and the twinkling of the mal-functioning self serve

check out machine’s scanner

that charged $8.75 less

because the UPC code

scanned as

an on -sale chop saw

…score!..ha ha !

and when I found out the

inevitable mass manufacturing flaw

and I could never return it

BOO HOO

because the item didnt match

the reciept.

needless to say this scenario

was replayed millions of times

world wide as a conspiracy to dump faulty

manufactured goods

on unsuspecting consumers.

was played like a trump card

by the industrialists

on the unsuspecting

…ambrose…

hows it go?

just because you arre paranoid

doesnt mean everybody is not out to get you.

4

Where’s Asia?

For all I know

This is all a Scam.

Keeping the youth

Out of the Old, the

Child out of his dad’s

Closet…

Boards from a place

I’ve never been

From people who don’t

SURF.

Max profits,

Limited competitors.

Lame.

No offense meant to out friendly Asian neighbors, I know they can produce a great product even though they don’t surf. But for some reason it still matters to me who made my board.

Peace ya’ all.

5

So I was at my local surf/skate/snow retailer and I picked up the most recent Transworld Business mag to find out what’s really happening in the world… there I read that Firewire is going oversees for the majority of their production. Greg, Bert, is this true?

I was all stoked to see the ‘franchise’ idea take off that Bert mentioned years ago. I wanted a job at one of those factories. Should I keep planning on moving to China if I want to have a job building boards of any kind in the future? I know there are a few snowboard factories still ruling it here, but now that Bert and Greg have succumbed, my hopes for the profitable U.S.A surfboard/skateboard factory are out the door.

Maybe there will still be opportunity for the small time bussinessperson/craftsperson if they can appeal to every possible customizable aspect of surf design (including construction type) and produce a reasonably durable product with in a reasonable timeframe, for a reasonable cost, while somehow staying reasonably afloat in a sea of big businesses flooding the market with unbelievable numbers of copycat superboards. Am I up for the challenge…? While the idea of having “some” boards made here in the states, and “some (more)” boards made in Asia sounds cool and all, its completely obvious that Nev and Bert and Greg want to give Surftech some competition (Shoots, they’re probably having pissing contests off of the Cobra Factory roof as we speak).

There’s nothing wrong with a little good old healthy competition between two powerhouse companies, its usually good for an industry. I’m just worried that it will be a little too good for the industry once Firewire starts producing better boards for less money. Surftech was fine with me cause they rode like crap. Now I’m afraid that once we get something that works better out of Asia, there will be no going back. There will be no reason to go hunt down some small time living legend for a custom board. That makes me want to change careers.

Thanks for everything you have done here Greg and Bert. You’ve inspired a lot of people, like myself, to start making their own boards stronger, with better and cleaner materials and better design. I’d venture to say that you’ve inspired a lot of people to dream about starting their own small businesses making and selling these boards, like the blokes in the U.K. that everyone’s been bagging on. I wanted to be a member of the Bert Berger knockoff generation too. Now I’m not so sure I can compete. Firewire won’t be the last company to start making killer boards out of Asia…

Now I think I know what Luke Skywalker felt like when he found out that his famous warrior father had eventually turned to the Dark Side and become Darth Vedar. It’s a bummer, I’m going surfing.

6

somebody needs a geography lesson.

All they need is a business plan and the desire to do it, but I’d bet keeping things small is more their style.

7

who is fire wire?

when the worlt view

has to do

with mass marketing to the likes

of who?

maybe your market share has to do

with your next bmw

is an unfortunate

boo hoo who.

but where artisanship

is the deridgable of your dreams

flying high o’r the stadium

of glory days…only the task at hand

barly visable from the grandstand

is a driving force worthy of higher minded

ampersands.

Mercantilism is the ilk of being awakened by a ‘customer’

on eeaster sunday and wheedeling

about the credit on a returned board

applied in full or part for a new board

and full tilt into aw come on tactix

after retaining the board for over a month.

retail is hellish

adversarial relationships between

entities in a transaction are tiresome and

in the long run less satisfying to all the parties involved.

china made any thing and everything

will slowly lose it’s atraction

as the parties are deprived the interaction

the grandness of the go back

to visit the people and the shop

that made the board will be lost forever.

imagine reminiscing…

the day I bought my first surf boart

at valemartzin the pescadero galleria

and the twinkling of the mal-functioning self serve

check out machine’s scanner

that charged $8.75 less

because the UPC code

scanned as

an on -sale chop saw

…score!..ha ha !

and when I found out the

inevitable mass manufacturing flaw

and I could never return it

BOO HOO

because the item didnt match

the reciept.

needless to say this scenario

was replayed millions of times

world wide as a conspiracy to dump faulty

manufactured goods

on unsuspecting consumers.

was played like a trump card

by the industrialists

on the unsuspecting

…ambrose…

hows it go?

just because you arre paranoid

doesnt mean everybody is not out to get you.

8

Where’s Asia?

For all I know

This is all a Scam.

Keeping the youth

Out of the Old, the

Child out of his dad’s

Closet…

Boards from a place

I’ve never been

From people who don’t

SURF.

Max profits,

Limited competitors.

Lame.

No offense meant to out friendly Asian neighbors, I know they can produce a great product even though they don’t surf. But for some reason it still matters to me who made my board.

Peace ya’ all.

9

“Et tu Berte?” Asia. Say it ain’t so Greg!

10

Right now Firewire is setting up the two largest domestic surfboard factories in the world, one on the Gold Coast and one in San Diego. They will supply the high end custom equipment to the US and Australian markets.

Bert and I have long held that the sports top end equipment should be domestically built and should remain a custom product. We have also spoken often that we feel that most stock and molded equipment would eventually be built overseas. This a reality of todays world and I doubt anyone here would disagree with this. Suffice to say that we will be building boards in Asia eventually but first we are dedicated to building significant numbers of domestically built, ultra high end, composite, custom boards.

The primary product built in Asia won’t be the high end product. All the high end custom stuff will be done domestically. But we have to be realistic and see today’s markets for what they are. Retailers and consumers are demanding what is being made overseas. The marketshare that is now held by that segment of the market isn’t getting in by using strong arm tactics. It’s getting in by producing what many surfers and retailers want at a price they’re willing to pay.

Only one of the major surfboard suppliers (well potential suppliers) is gambling on high end domestic production as a part of their future and that’s Firewire. Almost all others are, at this stage, shifting production overseas and shrinking their domestic production houses. The reality of todays world is that the tech for building and supplying high quality standardized product built overseas is soimething that already exists. Of course we want to give the guys at Surftech and Boardworks a run for that portion of the market. Does anyone really think we shouldn’t? By the way, that production will be built from the ground up using completely new technology developed at Firewire. We are NOT jumping in to anyone elses game. We are not using someone elses tech.

Bottom line … our vision … we are dedicated to advancing domestic surfboards, keeping the upper echilon surfboard “custom” and making it the best thing you can buy. That has been our main focus all along. We are investing in domestic surfboard production in an unprecidented way. We are dedicating more time, effort and money that anyone in surfboard history. We will be making equipment that will push domestic surfboard production to an entirly new level (wait till you see!). For these reasons I don’t think either one of us are going back on our words … at all.

Bert … I hope I didn’t put words in your mouth.

11

nice way to say that you are selling out…

asia killed every industry by using cheap labor and kids.

i just read a book a bout the business in china.

they explain what is happening with their river,their country side and the effect on the country people due to pollution.

huge problem with health, cancer. on 1 billion people, 2/3 live in the country and are paid about or under 5$/ month growing rice or whatever.

they are living from the land still, but the land is dying, the river are black…

the reality is that china is cheap, if you want to be part of it go for it but the reality is also that you are part of a huge ecological disaster.

your call but you will see soon, hopefully you will have time to make a buck before it blows.

i was surprise when matt biolos went to vietnam to make boards after everything he did against it, after merrick,russty,webber… everybody.

now you guys?

sad, i guess is hould go back to school, this industry is fucked, one of the only industry with soul is now gone.

regards,

12

so the backyarder can’t compete with the asia market on price and can’t compete with this alledged top of the line board on the tech aspects?

Sharpen your mower blades boys…the grass needs a good mowing.

I haven’t read all your posts or bert’s, but bad mouthing surftech was definately in bert’s posts and bad mouthing asian production as a whole was also in bert’s posts.

So I quess I would have to scratch my head for either of you to be involved in asian production.

As a capitalist I hope the surfboard market pie grows and you get a huge piece of it.

As a cheapskate, I look forward to the day china hops on the epoxy production also and

I can get Beijing research resin and additive chinese character F for next to nothing too.

You guys alledge advancing the top end custom board market(still holding my breath), but I would be interested to see your bottom line in 5 years what makes the money for your organization. The china connection or the overpriced san diego composite? If the majority of your profits are from china it’s called selling out according to past posts of bert and possibly you.

Other big timers have made the same move or are making it now, so no need to try to rationalize the reality of the matter. Best of luck in the ultra high end, composite, custom board market. It’s a tiny piece of any size pie.

No luck needed in a cheap labor market and 100% mark up of your “stock” let’s sell container loads of the stuff boards. They really aren’t all that bad in the surf.

Death of a salesman for me but I love the outdoors and I am not allergic to grass.

13

Not only that, but because China lives off the land, which is being polluted by factory run-offs and emissions, China’s gonna have a huge problem feeding its 1.3 billion people.

Meanwhile, China is investing heavily into its military capability, which by the way the American dollar/consumer is the primary source of funding. So for all you people out there buying that $9.99 stock pot at Walmart, you can rest easy knowing its going towards a good cause.

Dont you just love global capitalism!

As for the rest of the debate here, at least FW is making attempts towards domestic production and thats no easy task (Id say it takes some serious balls and innovation). Where’s ST’s domestic production?

14

I found this on the internet at www.seek.com.au under (manufacturing/operations, gold coast c/o Archer Consulting Group)

Firewire are looking for

  1. An Assistant Production Manager

  2. A CNC (Router) Programmer, and

  3. A Leading Hand.

Try this site (which may be temporary)

http://www.seek.com.au/jobsearch/index.ascx?DateRange=31&catlocation=1005&stateselected=true&catindustry=1217&sortmode=1

Good Luck, and Welcome to sunny Australia, beautiful one day - perfect the next.

15

Greg - that’s a great vision. It’s interesting how you interject we and they. Is it cool to ask deeper questions on these ideas?

Crafty - replace the United States of America w/ China in your statement and it feels the same.

16

The simple fact is that surfboard manufacturing has reached the buisness level of surfing apparel. Within a few years it will be just like snowboards, how long has it been since you could buy a custom snowboard at anything less than an astronomical price? Pro models and streamlined production with cheap labour and lower tax rates are simply more economically efficent. The true problem is not the location our boards are being made it is the attitude among the large suppliers and western culture in general that more is better. Why should i be happy with making 60 grand a year when i can make 600 000. How much do we need?

As wonderful and romantic as the old idea of a shaper being happy just making enough boards to get by and be able to go surfing is, it just doesn’t exist anymore (if it ever did) we all now want a big house a car that costs more than a years salary, twice a year trips to the Mentawis and cheap t shirts and boards.

Don’t worry though in 20 years all boards will once again be made in the US. Once you export all your manufacturing to developing countries and undermine your economic industrial base. China and Thailand will need someplace to manufacture all of their consumer goods and an economically ruined N.America will be perfect since they own all the ports anyway.

cheers

17

IF you’re occasionally checking out this site because you like to make a board once in awhile and you come here to get help or share some info, all of the above about overseas production is really irrelevant. Why get upset about something you 1)have no control over and 2) really won’t affect you personally if you make your own. We can actually make our own cheaper now, and also stronger by using the new eps 2.5# and 3.0# foam and epoxy resin using the traditional construction methods. Yes , it’s a bit more labor intensive now shaping the eps without a close tolerance blank and we’ve got to master flip times with the laminating but it’s time better spent than getting caught up in the politics of those hungry for fame and fortune. That only pollutes the soul. The true satisfaction comes from the time spent with those tools in our hands and then paddling out on what we created. Not getting caught up in others bullshit.

18

Shaping EPS is easier and faster. Consider

4 hotwire cuts

5 minutes

planshape done

bottom rocker done

hull rocker done

It is far better than a close tolerance blank. It is an exact tolerance blank after a CNC hotwire. Shaping EPS is different, and easier, with the right approach and tools.

And if you don’t have a hotwire rig and you don’t like how long shaping it takes…think about it…

Frankly, I am amazed Bert and/or Greg could convince anyone with that much money that a domestic shop was worth the startup funds.

19

This might be difficult to except for some, but there is only one way to compete domestically with overseas cheap labor: Robots.

Don’t laugh, someday all humans will be replaced with robots. Once the upfront costs are paid for, they only require a little electricity and a little maintenance now and then. And they do precise, repeatable work without taking breaks, calling in sick, etc. Humans are no match for any labor that can be done by a robot.

But robots don’t help us keep our jobs either, they will replace us just as easily as the Chinese workers. So the smart ones will be doing the things the robots can’t do, like: designing, programming, robot maintenance, own the robots. But don’t even think about building robots, the Chinese will have that covered pretty soon, and you’ll be able to get any kind of robot for next to nothing at your local Harbor Freight.

For me it’s all about design. Artificial intelligence may come into the picture in about 10-20 years, but for now, a robot will not be able to design in the nuances of a custom board for an individual. Nor will it be able to innovate.

Robots will be the tools of the millennium, just like power tools were for the previous century. I’ve already got my shaping robot, and my next will be a glassing robot.

20

LOCKDOWN ALERT!!! LOCKDOWN ALERT!!!

Crafty - replace the United States of America w/ China in your statement and it feels the same.

I am glad those of us who THINK see a big difference between the U.S. and China.

What could one replace easternpacific with and have it “feel” the same?