Firewire - Okay so who's buying them?

Industry Talk
1

So Firewire comes out with it’s big Hulabaloo in March-April

Nev’s Futureshapes and Surfburger even before that…

But other than the freebie Tanner got from his friend Mark

who else has actually been able to buy one of these “vaporware” viral marketing displays of technology over the past two months?

Any shops in their neighborhood stocking them yet?

Any “firewire coming soon” signs in your local shops?

And how long are the guys placing custom orders told they have to wait?

For something that’s supposed to radically change the course of the surfboard industry we already missed the tax rebate season, then the summer vacation season I guess they need to gear up for a Christmas roll out.

The last thing any startup should do is announce early and don’t deliver…

Go rent the documentary “start-up.com” to see why.

Look at how Randy did it and learn.

Talk about a well planned program to attack a hostile market.

Burton/Channel Islands are going to draw away some of Firewire’s steam and there’s probably more of these to follow.

Aviso/Hydroepic/XTR/Solomon are going to confuse the marketplace with their successes or more importantly, their failures before Firewire can even get off the ground. Then Firewire will constntly have to answer the “why are you different” questions.

Quicksilver and Billibong labels are also going to confuse the market especially if they start offering name shaper products (like Chili, DHD, JS) at discounts due to of the offset provided by clothes sales. There’s alot of packaging and branding going on now to compete with the incoming offshore stuff. I think esoteric solo ventures with out a well defined market or significant reason to buy are going to have a hard time unless they strike a deal…hmmm Addidas or even better how about Mountain Dew?

Remember when the Swiss Swatch surf team showed up at Pipe?

Imagine if they were also advertising Blue Soloman boards or Buffo boards…

One rule of thumb everyone knows…

don’t make your audience wait around too long and then don’t deliver the expected big bang cause once you lose them they aren’t coming back unless you eat the costs to discount.

bert was right when he said he felt the build out of the infrastruture had to be completed before they started with the hype cause hyping too early and making people wait too long can kill any good idea. People move on plain and simple… Then again the suits never listen the developer, they just buy rights to the ideas and eventually boot the guy out.

So what’s the scoop firewire owners/on the waiting list’ers?

2

Firewire’s are much lighter than Aviso/Hydroepic/XTR/Solomon . I’ve handled all three, and the lightest boards are the firewire ones.

That said, a famous shaper told me that balanced weight matched with the rocker for that type of board can be the best.

I haven’t checked out the Southcoast surfshops, but I’ll swing by and see. I got vacation beyond America’s 4th of July Holiday, because I finally scored a new job. Searching for jobs sucks in So Cal. Too many people so the employers get hella picky.

A few surfers that hang around those shops have told me they go for $700, but they also said B***** ************ was just like Pipe and it was barreling and hollow, but it was not pipe. So I’ll check it out . . .

Custom orders are next year according to the website. LOL in this http://firewiresurfboards.com/learn_faq.php they give props to Eva, the Board Lady (EPS epoxy repair ninja lady)

I am definitely going to have buy one. I’m saving up for one now.

If they ride like anything Bert has been saying, they may have to change their name to wild fire. But if they aren’t . . . oh well it was nice hoping . . .

3
Quote:
Burton/Channel Islands are going to draw away some of Firewire's steam and there's probably more of these to follow.

I dunno bout this interpretation.

First of all, I don’t think anyone is concerned about Firewire. No one has been able to come reasonably close to profitable domestic production of composite boards in the USA due to labor costs, and lots have tried. I am not saying anything about what Firewire may or may not have in store, just that the status quo doesn’t view it as a market threat in any real sense.

Second, people are interpreting the CI/Burton buyout as meaning CI will be getting into composites. I don’t know about some, but I personally think they would require YEARS of composite R&D specific to surfing before they could do anything worthwhile, and I don’t think Burton or CI is dumb enough not to know this. Bert and Greg have done copious R&D, CI brands boards made by Surftech.

If Firewire succeeds, the obvious response by CI is to have Surftech copy the technology to the extent possible, with a one year lag to market, and outmarket Firewire in the meantime. Then, the Surftech’s branded as CI boards will sell for $200 less than Firewires.

Composite tech is increasing in market share, but mostly through Surftech’s growth.

As to the Burton/CI buyout, I think it is mostly about launching the Channel Islands brand name into clothing and other offshoots that have better profit margins. And, possibly, about consolidating domestic production so that you do not have to

  1. use shaping machine in one place

  2. pay ghost shaper at second place

  3. pay glasser at third place

Each one of these steps costs more to do it the way CI does today. Instead, you

  1. buy your own shaping machines

  2. hire a few ghost shapers, and use cheap labor to do most of the finishing with the ghost shapers supervising

  3. in-house the glassing, possibly by buying out a few glass houses.

This would require investment, but should save $30/board at the shaping machine, $30/board at the shaper, and another $50/board at the glasser, and allow the biggest domestic surfboard manufacturer to sell his high quality domestic boards CHEAPER than the competition - about $100 cheaper.

CI has been successful so far with marketing, and taking hardly any advantage of economics of large production, and that is DUMB. A small investment of capital could really change that.

4

well as any surviving non SOHO business owner knows…

its all about the money

if you don’t get that early in the curve you aren’t going to be around for the long haul

that’s why over 50% of all small business ventures fail

“angel investors” will put up only of for so long before they cut their losses.

Example in question…

Just read about another “great idea at the time” failure on the sways front page

spiderhawaiisurboards.

today at noon and again tomorrow

100+ surfboards either chinese or hand made(I can’t tell) from South Africa’s Spider Murphy will be liquidated by McClain Auctions 2 blocks from my office at 50% or less than what they were being sold for in the store.

A woodie longboard for $300

100 boards that’s alot of economic impact to the rest of the local board selling market for the next 30-60 days or so.

They’re blaming it on the sewage spill when it fact it was a another case of a failed business plan trying to cash in on the local “Blue Crush”, “Surfer Girls”, “Northshore Boarding House” and “Surfer House” growth phenomena. Funny part is that all those folks bought Costco, NSP, or Island Creations chinese boards.

Also if it was a commercial loan that payed for that failed dream then that loss just increased the expense on everyone’s locally borrowed money(commercial, retail and mortgage loans) a couple micro cents to offset the loss.

Cause in the end even though no one knows it

like it or not everyone pays

for all the cheapskates out here…

here’s a look

http://americaim2.com/cgi-bin/ws/cfg_mcclain.pl?t=ws&z=14525&noflash=1&word1=2103&key1=0.&dbase_view=LOT&exact=1&auction=2103&append_log=1

5

Interesting that with the downturn of factory output in HI (due to Clark) that someone with 100+ finshed boards couldn’t make a go of it.

FW will be an interesting proposition to everyone both those in the business and consumers. There are two factories now in small production and ramping up. You’ll be seeing product on the market soon but, one problem right now, why your not seeing stuff, is that it sells out as soon as it hits the shelves. Once production ramps to a better level you’ll see it. By fall I’d say and certainly by Jan. 1. Lots of pieces to establishing the production including the build of the factories which takes time. It’s coming along.

6

blakestah you have your numbers wrong

KKL for volume =$20

ghost shaper =$15 to $20

glass shop profit per board $10 to $15 (which is why no major builders run a glass shop)

7

I cruised by a surfshop that had firewires . . . they only had the flexfire and alternator models . . . I saw my board (well it isn’t mine, but it will be by Aug). They are going for $750 US.

They just 100 or so more than the surftechs, and they had a little manual for the shop that showed some stuff like on their website.

The pricing is just about right. They can under cut the carbon fiber boards going for $1000, and under the salomons for $850.

I might just wait, until more shops get them then find the cheapst . . .

8
Quote:

Interesting that with the downturn of factory output in HI (due to Clark) that someone with 100+ finshed boards couldn’t make a go of it.

the spooky part about it for FireWire’s sake is that once the boards were marked down 50%-60% of what the shop was selling them for, all 100 boards sold out in 20 minutes.

Hows that for telling you what the state of the state is in this business…

sad very sad for the shop and everyone else trying to make it.

T&C is currently having another $150 blowout sale to clear inventory because of a “factory relocation” what ever that means.

SFO (Surfboard Factory Outlet) home of the chinese Island Classics and ZeSurf epoxies has now relocated their store from Campbell Industrial Park to gues where… the north shore.

Salomon is shutting down it S-core ops and Aviso is going to struggle with with the current shortage of carbonfiber.

Kind of makes Firewire the new high species…

Question is who’s got the bucks to afford them if they aren’t even willing to pay retail for a handshaped PU.

Still hoping and praying though for your guys success.

Meanwhile I’m digging up some of your oldies but goodies ideas which are still very much valid today for hand layups…

2020+syntech bottom and 2000+6oz 4harness satin weave Carbon +4oz S top over EPS…

Those are still good and valid ideas we’re over looking…

9

What I’ve seen in my years (too many of those) is that people want something good or something cheap. This is the real hard part of what’s going on in the industry right now. You have the lows, which used to be the off brand or shop brand board built in the US, but now comes this from Asia, and the top end which used to be CI, Rusty and Lost and, IMHO, will now be FW, Rusty, CI/Burton and ST. Tech will be the cream that rises and imports will take the lows. Any retailer will tell you, “We sell the cheapest and the most expensive. The stuff in the middle sits.” This is practically a retail rule and apply’s to virtually every product made, not just boards.

As for industry downturn this year, there may be a couple years of this until we begin seeing things rise from the ashes. We were due for a downturn but not for another two years (according to history). An early downturn is a bit of a shock and on top of the Clark debacle there are more than a few that are reeling right now. But historically, downturns are just a part of the sports occasional reorganization and usually signify a change in the sport and in the business. This can be something as dramatic as the development of urethane foam (1958 which created an upturn in business but a definate downturn for the long time participants) or the shortboard revolution (1968 which was a downturn for business but overall an upturn for the sport) or something mundane such as the rise of the surfwear brands (1978 which signified an upturn for business but perhaps a downturn for the sport as crowding increased so much during the 80’s). When all is said and done usually when business has an upturn those involved in the water suffer. And vice versa. So in other words wax up your boards for a decade of less crowded surf as the sport redifines itself for the next hey day after 2016.

Businesswise, those who get through such times usually do pretty well on the other end. And building a new business and participating creatively during the down times is usually easier (just ask Rusty) as the surfing public is a bit more hardcore. And communication with the hardcore is infinately easier than communication with the softer participants.

10

I don’t think you can plan around boom/bust cycles anymore. These cycles have been thrown out of wack by a number of longer term trends. ie. the deflationary effect of the shift of production to China and the massive amount of money being pumped into equity markets by retirement funds. The second trend will reverse in the next 20 years - baby boomers will convert their equity into cash. However the biggest distruptive factor is the fact that we’ve reached peak oil production. The implications of that are huge. From now on in who knows what will happen?

11
Quote:
This would require investment, but should save $30/board at the shaping machine, $30/board at the shaper, and another $50/board at the glasser, and allow the biggest domestic surfboard manufacturer to sell his high quality domestic boards CHEAPER than the competition - about $100 cheaper.

CI has been successful so far with marketing, and taking hardly any advantage of economics of large production, and that is DUMB. A small investment of capital could really change that.

Maybe. But it’s a lot more “fun” to dominate the market and make a fortune by working with talented surfers to develop boards that work for them and take them to the top of the pro tour, take surf trips around the world to get groovy photos and videos of your team riders you can use for marketing, produce boards in a manner in which various other surfers can also make a few bucks ghost shaping or glassing to finance their surfing lifestyle. No?

In other words, maybe they didn’t do it the way you propose (cutting costs) because they are too “dumb” to know better. Maybe it was a conscious choice. Or maybe it was just a case of “this is kind of how surfers have always made surfboards,” and since it was working brilliantly for them there was no motivation to change. I hope, for the sake of the surfers involved in the current operation, that they do not take your business advice.

12

so how long (man hours )does it take to build a pu/pe in factory

including blank production time?

5 -6 hrs?

3 hrs?

what

just want to compare to my backyard composite times

13

6 months to a year

yup

every custom ordered over the last fours years took exactly that long

with everyone blaming someone else downstream in the cycle

that’s the problem with factories and customs.

one good all around guy with a UV box and acces to a shaping machine could do one start to finish in 1-3 days or less.

Blanks I don’t know

maybe a day not including shipping and materials prep.

standing in line somewhere in the cycle for one reason or another is where the time starts to add up and the blame starts.

14

hey bernie

okay so it takes a while

what about actual hands on the board time to build?

15

with UV you can do a board start to finish in less than a day

1/2 day (3-4 hours) to machine or hand shape

1/2 day (3-4 hours) to glass, sand, polish and spray seal no gloss

6-8 hours this is very reasonable wih UV

16

If you’re comparing compsand build time with PU/PE build time, you’ve got to add the time it takes to glue the stringer into a PU blank.

17

I timed it, just APPLIED labor time for ONE basic short board with a clear lamination and sanded finish.

This didn’t include racking, looking for the scissors, waiting for resin to dry, talking with customers,

ordering more supplies or mixing the resin.

Fixturing Blank…3 minutes

Machine deck and bottom…22 minutes (finer finish)

Hand finish…18 minutes (I was super careful and use templates to check my work)

Dust and Prep cloth…3 minutes

Bottom Lam…12 minutes

Lap prep pull cloth…6 minutes

Deck Lam…11 minutes (should have been longer?!)

Hot coat deck…3 minutes

Lap grind bottom…2 minutes

Tape and Hot coat bottom…5 minutes

Install fin hardware…18 minutes (all tooling is set out)

Sand…27 minutes

Acrylic finish…3 minutes

Total of 2 hours 13 minutes (and this is not “thrash” style work but very skilled, quality-oriented).

If you saw the boards in the racks, you’d see and feel the difference, I’m very passionate about it.

Some things to note are the uniqueness of running one board through a place where all the tools are

laid out, and separate stations for each major step, plus I’ve been building for over 30 years now.

Oh, and nothing went wrong…

Our typical cycle time right now is 3-1/2 weeks but it has been as long as 2 months and a bit longer

for “oddball” boards. I feel that 3-1/2 weeks is pretty darn short but most of the orders have been

for basic stuff.

Normally, when doing 1 operation, one must times that by 7 more boards or so. For example, cutting

cloth for the bottom lam may take 3 minutes but that is done 8 times PLUS setting it on the lam tray,

going to the next one, cutting, and setting it on the wall rack. Definitely takes more than 24 minutes

to do this for 8 boards.

Our laminator can have a full day doing 8 boards all the way to hotcoated decks. I’ve seen places where

on guy does a dozen all the time and I’ve had one guy from SC tell me he lammed 21 longboards in one

sitting!!!

While doing this rush board I was thinking how most of us here had beginnings or are still in a small area

and half the battle was setting up for one thing, not having the right tools, or a good means to clean with,

or to install with, and having that other time-taker, another job. I’d spend all evening after work

cutting cloth and lamming 1 bottom and putting the thing away for 2 weeks, it was harsh, but great fun.

Now, we forecast what needs to be purchased, 400 deck plugs show up just as we need them. When

we run out of something and don’t have back-up, the shop really feels it, guys stand around.

JIT is an art in itself, and quite stressfull.

A board construction such as the FireWire can be broken down into its’ constituent components and each

step analyzed. In bigger production it is wise to have 2 or 3 production lines in parallel so when one hits

a snag (always, ALWAYS happens) the others stay busy. The measure of art there is to keep the whole

machine oiled and running smooth. One guy calls in sick and the other 6 downstream will be short on work.

The former BASE (Billabong?) factory was similar to that, and I know that in China this is normal to be

“cost effective”. (Save 1.5 minutes in ONE operation and it compounds into large $$$$).

18

nobody on this site who bought a Firewire? anybody else but Bert and Greg who surfed one?

19

cool

thanks PlusOne

i was thinking 3 hours would be a good aim

to make it profitable

but 2 hours or so is amazing

so i guess you wanna charge out at 100$ per hour for labour

duoble your material cost + tax?

does that sound right

20

Actually, we have to consider overhead costs.

Recurring expenses which come into the equation, such as rent/mortgage, ads, loan

payments, insurance, worker’s comp, city/state fees, utilities, and figure our skilled labor

guys are making about US$20/hr not including their breaks and up to maybe 30 if not

distracted. (It’s piecework).

Then we have to consider the material costs. Blanks are up, but the real shocker was

(and will continue to be) our petroleum-based materials. Resin and Epoxy is sure to go

up higher as well as making glass, just watch when oil hits US$80/barrel for a sustained

period- this will be a psychological shift in commodities and shipping etc, and everything

deliverable in general will be in peril.

Consider also every vendor relationship you create, they will want terms. You could easily

have $10,000-worth of boards in a shop that need to be paid, but once all that money finally

reaches home, the shop has ordered $10,000 more- (which sounds good) but you are basically

funding the retailers in an on-going buy/sell loop.

After all that analysis, then you can look at a net profit (if any)…

…net is what seems to swing so much especially in recent times. So I have to say

a basic calculation will be difficult. That $100/hr you mention must be a shop rate like

mechanics charge? Basically compare all money in, against all money out, then work on

making production efficient. Labor and training will be costly and will take much more

time until workers “settle in”… …it may take 2 hours: spread out over 2 months!!!

…I’ve seen big factories that have workers busy and will be operating in the red for months.

It’s amazing what it takes to operate truly profitably in this “industry”…