First board, is a compsand too ambitious?

General Discussion
1

So, I love to surf and I love woodworking so It seems i should combine the two and make a wooden surfboard. I have never made a surfboard before.

I had originally thought of making a hollow longboard over a rib frame as Its more in my skill set opf just wood but I have gone off the idea due to the weight and general feel of a board like that. I am going to make a mid length speed egg type board around 7’4 x 22 x 3.

So after some thought and research about materials costs and availability here in the Northern Ireland I am leaning towards a compsand perhaps.

Foam wise I can get eps but its not really used for insulation here anymore so is specialist stuff and harder to get therefore expensive. I can get 1lb eps easily and can get 1.5lb at a push. Higher than is only available in large quantities.

Option 1.  To build a 1.5lb foam blank with parabolic rails and then build up layers of 3mm birch ply as the rails and this would also then act as a perimeter stringer for some strength. also i thought the sanded ply would look great next to white foam. My concern is that the board may be super stiff and horrible to surf as I have no idea about these aspects of board design, its way over my head and skill level as a surfer. Do you think a board like this could work?

Option 2. worrying about such weak foam I though about laminating timber to the deck. The only thing available to me here is 0.8mm (1/32’‘) veener in 8’x4’ sheets. I have a quality planer/thicknesser but the only decent wood available to me is western red cedar cladding typically 5 icnhes wide and 1/2’’ thick or rough sawn 1’’ thick hardwood stock which would result in an expensive bag of shavings. Has anyone made a compsand but used 3mm ply or machined down their own hardwood? How thin would it need to be do follow the deck contours?

I am going to glass the board with epoxy regardless of construction.

Sorry for essentially vomiting up everything in my head but any advice or thoughts welcome.

 

Cheers

2

Shape comes first.  Working in these other materials only makes it harder to get the shape right.  I wouldn’t bother with exotic materials or builds until you get the fundamentals of your shape together.   Just doing the vacuum bag is a big step forward in complexity and costs.  

But if you’re committed to the wood look then doing veneers over EPS is a legitimate combo that will give you a strong and lightweight board.  It’s way easier than a compsand, too.  

3

Thanks for the reply. Perhaps i am using the wrong terminology. I essentially just wanted to bond a thin timber skin to the deck with epoxy and had read about putting a layer of glass under and one over for strength due to the low density weak foam. I assumed that is what people mean by a compsand but perhaps i got it wrong. 

I would happily simply bond a veneer to the foam and glass over it as normal if that was easier? but if i bond it using epoxy anyway surely a layer of 4oz cloth in there would do no harm.

I planned to glass the bottom normally with perhaps 6oz but no veneer.

4

Can you do it? Sure! I think my first compsand was maybe board number 4.

But you might want to save yourself lots of heartache by making models of your build before you go all in. Don’t want to ruin that shape with a screw up in vacuum level.

That being said, post your plans and keep the thread going as you progress. Lots of pictures. We can walk you through it.

5

I would go so far as to suggest that you start with the simplest and least expensive builds (polyurethane blanks if you can get them) and jump right into the whole shaper/glasser thing with both feet.   Get a few boards under you for family and friends so you can dial in what you really want to do.    Just making the jump from polyester resin to epoxy complicates the glassing a fair bit.  

 

Definitely post pics.   I’ve been seeing a lot of first time shapes here that were way better than my first couple boards.  

6

No matter the method of construction, for you it will be a new process and something which will require a bit of research. EVERYTHING you need to know is out there somewhere and not necessarily on a surfboard website.

Polyester vs epoxy resins is not a concern as you haven’t been indoctrinated by one process over the other.  For some guys, switching from poly to epoxy required a little bit of extra thought but again, if you’re starting from scratch, not a factor in my opinion.  If you know nothing else, epoxy is a piece of cake once you get it figured out.  Just read the directions.

I totally agree with gdaddy that the shape is the main thing.  For an experienced rider, some design variations might be in order when using one construction method over another.  For general purposes, it won’t matter too much unless you have a specific design really dialed in.

I agree with you that a glass/veneer/glass skin construction method essentially yields a compsand.  The thickness of the skin core (veneer vs something thicker) is maybe where there is an argument(?)

I have vacuum bagged thicker wood core skins to a deck and conventionally glassed the bottom and rails. A recent board used store bought blank with parabolic stringers already inserted.  I sunk the deck and vacuumed a fabricated wood strip panel inside the stringers. The inner layer of glass was trimmed along with the wood strip panel after I laid up all the pieces and glass on one side.  I punched a lot of holes in the deck surface and vacuumed the prefabbed deck skin to the blank with epoxy.

The whole thing got some clean up and the deck was glassed over with a single layer of cloth.  This layer wrapped around the rails to the bottom.

The bottom was glassed and the the rails overlapped so the glass extended a bit over the wood edge.  I was trying to avoid any stress line where the wood edge/stringer met the foam.

The deck has held up well but with only 2 layers of cloth on the rails, recent feedback was that they are softer than expected. I maybe should have glassed the deck with double layers over the wood or wrapped an extra strip around the rails(?)

I think the wood strips were right about 1/8" (3mm +/-) - that is about as thin as my thickness planer will go.  I used strips that someone had left over from a wood strip kayak project.

Anyway… feel free to PM me with any questions.  Here is a pic of the board in question.  Sorry to those who’ve seen it before.

 

 

 

 

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7

Once you put the glass on the veneer it’s pretty stiff so you have to use a vacuum to hold it down until it’s hardened. I would agree that you can mess up a good shape with your first few vacuum trys. So you might want to just shape a poly blank first if you need a ride. Then work on getting the compsand thing right. The bag, release ply, breather, seal and timing of the resin going off can be tricky until you get a few under your belt. The shape is a little more difficult with wood rails and foam deck as the two elements sand differently and are hard to get right. Try shaping a poly blank with parabolic stringers first so you get a feel for the difficulty level.

8

my first board was a compsand. i used foaming polyurethane glue to bind the veneer to the EPS and only covered the Venner with resin, no cloth.

I did to layers of 2mm birch veneer on top and one layer of 2.7 mm hoop pine on the bottom.

Look up Grant Newby timber surfboards…

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This was the first surf on it.

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Go for it! Balls to the walls!

No matter the construction…if the shape sucks…all things suck.

All things Vac Bag have been purged from my workshop. And I’m very happy about it. I am working on quality surfboards. One at a time. Hand shaped and hand glassed. It’s just too easy to go overboard and forget about the shape… Looking at all the projects I’ve done with crap foam… and looking at the last 5 boards with Quality blanks…So nice to start with a good blank. rocker is there, stringer is right, no weak ass foam…delaming skins, late nights fighting leaks in Vac Bags, pump problems…done with that stuff… You go for it. And prove me wrong. I’m driving down a smooth Highway right now…getting ready to order a long board blank from US Blanks later this week…and a big fish blank too…

…Mr Stingray…

11

If you want to go with wood skin je carreful to really well seal foam under wood, i use to make and repair wood deck boards and see so many waterized wood skins.

12

Guys, thanks so much for all the replies, its all much appreciated.

​I have no intention of making lots of boards and don’t desperately need a board at the minute so am happy to plan it well and take it slow. Its more a fun project that I don’t want to spend too much on.

​Skatment how did you do your rails? I’m assuming 2mm timber didn’t wrap them?

​I would prefer to avoid a vac bag altogether if possible.

​if I used a 0.8mm veneer could I bond it to the foam without vacuum?

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A lot of this is based on the fact that I cant get anything other than 1lb foam without paying 130 dollars

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14

To the OP, if this is your first shaping project, I would suggest learning to work with your tools and materials first before taking on a overly complicated learning curve of creating an entire surfboard.

 

First things first, you got to learn how to shape, then you can try to shape a surfboard.  Try starting with making a hand board, which will save you money on materials and TIME.  You can make 10 before you finish one surfboard.  Each time perfecting you hands and eyes to create what your mind desires.  Each board you will practice measuring, shaping, laminating, plug inserts, and above all, how the board moves in the water.

 

Part of the complications in board making arrives when there are time limits for working as with lamination and resins.  Learn the techniques first.  Then improve your craft before stepping up to a commitment like shaping a surfboard.

 

All those handboards can be sold for beer money and more materials in the end, which is better than getting frustrated and giving up or putting your time and energy into a sub-standard product compared to if you practiced for a month.  And you have a potential client list of ten people if they like your work and you continue producing.

15

The spirit of  Sways is alive and well. Great advice here  

All the best

16

Piteraman, thanks for your thoughts. To reiterate i have no intention of making lots of boards or ever selling any, this is just a fun hobby project as a change to woodwork. I am a relatively skilled woodworker and work professionally with tools everyday its just the new materials i need to get used to.

 

I would rather make a wood hybrd board that was more interesting to make than just do a normal glass over foam build. I want to be totally clear that i am not at all suggesting normal glass over foam blank boards are in anyway easy or straighforward its just that i’m sure my board will be a dog performance wise so i’d prefer it to be an interesting dog. :slight_smile:

 

 

 

17

Hey

I started from scratch with full balsa compands. It can be done.  

What everyone says above is right though. Shaping a couple of conventional boards first will help learn to transfer your design to reality better. 

It took me several compsands to get to something that surfed ok. So you’ll probably save over the longer term starting with a $130 blank.

K

18

I’ll find a few pics of the rails later

The rails were cut off square and then i alternated a 3mm veneer of western red cedar with a 2 mm veneer of the birch, 6 layers in total. As in 3 WRC and 3 birch. These were cut to a rough profil of the rail profile, Polyurethane glue applied and then held into the curve with multiple strips of masking tape.

 

Have a look at this thread from page 5 onwards you can see me doing a very similar rail technique, but im doing one layer of cedar as parabolic stringers and then gluing some PU foam to the rails and shaping them.

http://www.swaylocks.com/forums/sunnyround-56-193-23-fixing-lots-stuff-ups-could-be-good-laugh-you?page=4

 

19

Done all the methods of making compsands. Using plywood, milling wood myself and using a thin veneer.

I like stiffer boards so the solid perimeter wood rail is not a problem for me. Plywood for the top and bottom makes the board heavy and kind of dead.

Your idea of using the softer EPS with wood rails and a thin veneer skin on the deck and bottom should work. We get 1/64" veneer and it is not thick enough for a strong skin even with a layer of glass above and below the veneer. 1/32" may be OK.

The first several boards I did after a 20+ year break were EPS compsands. All the steps for shaping a compsand are more complicated because you have mixed media and a hard glue line, but it shouldn’t be something to hold you back. Remember that the skin thickness will add to the overall thickness, I didn’t think about it much on my first one.

All but 2 boards in this photo were made with hardware EPS and 1/8" thick balsa sheets. 2 have 1/64" thick veneer and 2 have 1/8" thick woven bamboo. All of these were made between 2005 and 2007.

20

0.8mm veneer can be an issue as its too flexible.

i know one bloke who has done comp sands where he used stips of masking tape pulling the veneer down and around the rails. as in tape over the entire surface then pulling it down tight. the issue with that would be twistign the light foam in the process?

his instagram is green_stix check it out.

also check dorffboards instagram, and google him for his blog.

but look for grant newby and his blog first

 

http://surfboardsbygrantnewby.blogspot.com.au/

look through his posts till you see his step by step run downs on his comp sand process.

i just love his hydro simmons boards.