i’ve already rounded up the more relevant epoxy resin lamination threads & pages but still can’t get over some stuff that aren’t on my supplier’s one-page “user manual”, hopefully all you experienced fellas can help me sort them out before i start, such as :
mixing : the user guide simply states, mix 2 parts resin with 1 part hardener. re UV protection powder, they said add .5% per resin’s total weight. do i bother adding surfacing agent (to prevent amine blush)? tropical manila gets somewhat cold the last 2 weeks of december, sometimes dropping a couple of degrees from 28-30 so i can’t really gauge how it’ll turn out as i’ll be renting a windowless shed for this final stage.
coats : will 2 coats be enough for HWS, i.e. laminate (saturating) coat, then fill coat (combination hotcoat + gloss coat)? locally-based boat-building expat retirees say this is sufficient for their needs
curing : how long do i need to keep my hands off the board before i do the next coat(s)?
sanding : do i need to sand after every coat? or will a rubdown with acetone (denatured alcohol?) suffice?
cleanup : what’s the better epoxy resin cleaner, acetone or denatured alcohol? pros? cons? already got most of the stuff i need for this first lamination attempt (rubber surgical gloves, foam rollers, finer-grit sandpaper, masking tape, etc), but i’m not sure which cleaning agent to get. i’ll be using half-gallon & pint (ice cream) plastic containers for measuring & mixing the epoxy resin, UV protection powder (Lowilite) & hardener. i was given reassurance that plastic tubs won’t melt from resin contact (unlike sanding sealer), but once i start cleaning my foam rollers & whatnot when i’m done, will the tubs survive acetone or denatured alcohol? if not, what should i use?
I do a single laminating coat on the bottom and two seperate laminating coats on the deck for foam boards. If you are doing a wood board, then flex and weight are secondary. One layer will work fine, but if you want more durability, go with two on the deck.
Keep your hands off until cured. You dont want to add contamination to the resin when it is still tacky. You can't sand the laminating coat until it is fully cured anyway, so take your time.
If no blush, sand only laps at this time. Apply first fill/ hot coats to the deck and bottom. Sand with a sanding block until you just kiss the cloth at the high points. You are trying to get the surface smooth at this point, and correct for any minor imperfections in the cloth. Since now you have just the slightest weave showing, you need a second coat to give the final uniform coverage. No DNA wipe down, no NOTHING!!!! Only clean new sandpaper.
The only epoxy cleaner is white vinegar. Plumbers hand cleaner can be used for you hands. Use any container you want as long as it is clean. Lam buckets can be re-used for laminations only. Hot coats get new buckets. Don't clean out your bucket. Just set it down, let the drips flow to the bottom and harden. Now you have an epoxy lined bucket for the next use. Don't reuse a bucket for hot coats. You really don't want the little chips of loose epoxy flaking off while you stir the next batch and cause zits.
I don't use rollers at all. Some do for the rails, but I like a squeege better.
thanks greg & e-surfer, i’ll need to digest your inputs first to make sure i got 'em all right. will post updates in my HWS D.I.Y. build thread once i start lamination. thanks again
BTW, I lam the two deck layers together. I think you will find you use less resin, the board is therefore lighter, its quicker, and most importantly, it’s
Howzit surfiber, I use GO that orange hand cleaner to clean my hands and even used it to clean brushes,works great As for rollers, cleaning them may be more expensive than just tossing them and using a new one each time. Aloha,Kokua
Sir Fiber, he,he,he !!! If you screw this up the God of epoxy is going to get you !!!! Here is how I do it. http://www.laughingloon.com/epoxy.html I cut my rollers into 3 pieces, throw them away after each use. I almost never use brushes ( only in butt cracks ) I only use a squeege for pulling out excess resin. pushing resin with a squeege makes for a less than clear finish. I think reading the laughingloon will explain it far beter than I can. What brand of resin are you useing?
W.O. and others: I note the following statement in the laughingloon site:
"If you are going to add a second layer of glass below the waterline it is best to do this AFTER the full glass layer is tack free. West Systems has done research and found the best multiple hand lay-ups result by doing it this way. Two layers of glass wet-out together will swell more with resin and excess resin cannot be removed to make the most light-weight lay-up."
This appears to contradict what is recommended on this forum. Myself, I prefer to lam multiple layers together, because using UV cure the set time is absolutely controlled and I have none of the foam problems and none of the extotherm issues which seem to be common with overworked epoxy, or epoxy left in a mass (the mixing cup) for too long.
Any and all comments concerning one or two layers are welcome! There's another thread asking whether one layer of six or two layers of four will be stronger - the answer is obvious that 2x4 = 8 and 8>6 thus 2x4 is stronger. Strength is a different issue than quality, but if anyone wants to address strength, please link it to resultant mass and whether the basic issue is addressed.
i’m prepared to discard replaceable roller foam-- but not the roller itself. the roller set came with a couple of foam tubes so i got a refill pack of 4 pcs, which should be more than enough for the total 4 coats on the board.
btw on another thread some guys said shaving cream also helps in removing epoxy resin? i’m prepared to try this too hehe
Honolulu, The laughingloon gives about the best explinations I have heard, I can't explain it any better. There is a lot of good information there. In regards to laminateing two layers of glass cloth at one time . I laminate both layers at the same time. It's easier and faster. Every epoxy resin is different and works different, what works well for one may not work for another.Useing 2 layers of 4 oz cloth is no problem to wet out and you can squeege out ex cess if you have too. Again every resin is different, some thick some thin thats one reason why I asked surfiber what resin he is useing. Because surfiber is useing a ,5 % UV filter addative I would guess it may be a modified boat resin. If I got it correct it is for UV protection and has nothing to do with cureing the resin. As far as exotherm goes every resin is different. West Systems is very hot ! Fiber Glass Hawaii is very very hot. Systems 3 medium. Aerialite minimal exotherm (Got love it !!!) Also if you do two panels side by side , one with a squeege and one with only a roller the one done with only a foam roller will be clearer.But then again every resin is different.When you throw in fast hardners and slow hardners that complicates things some more.. Hardners that can be mixed fast to slow are really good because you can mix them to fit the job you are doing.There are pro glassers who can do magic with a squeege and epoxy (pro!) beginers and a squeege end up floating a lot of cloth. I learned to glass with a squeege but now prefer to do epoxies with a roller. I am always reluctant to give advise on finishing (glassing) or spraying varnishes ect. because I live on Kauai and have never worked in colder climates or real dry climates. What works here for me may not work in Arizona or Alaska or where every. It's up to surfiber to sort through all the information and figure out what will work for him. Also Laughingloon is building wood kayaks. Most board builders on sways are doing foam or comps. I am not sure where surfibers board fits in here as it is fiber and he is the first to tackle this one. Personaly I think his fiber may want to soak up a lot of resin and it might be a good idea to seal the board before doing the glassing. It is rare for a first time glass job to turn out well. It takes a few times to figure it out. I wish surfiber luck and hope he has a good experience with his glassing.
i opted to source from a local outfit called polymer products, which was recommended by said expat-retiree boat builders who live elsewhere in the country (davao, general santos, cavite, etc). their customer support isn’t that responsive so i’ll have to bank on the expertise of all you fellas who use other brands hehe
btw thanks for the useful link too! just in case i don’t finish lamination over the xmas holidays-- dec. 24th to 27th-- i can do the rest by yearend, 31st to jan. 2nd. this better work " )
i still have enough sanding sealer to use on the board-- except i’d been warned here and at T2S that epoxy resin won’t adhere to anything that’s pre-coated with it, that’s why i later sanded it all off.
at about 20kgs pre-glassing, i’m no longer worried that the board will gain another kilo or so after glassing-- as if i can control it anyway-- so all i really need to ensure is that the board comes out watertight & good-looking after lamination hehe
btw re proper roller use, do you pour resin onto the fiberglass cloth on the board and then using the roller to ‘push’ excess resin around to keep it evenly flat?
or is a paint pan needed to let the foam soak up resin first, which you then apply direct to the cloth on the board surface?
I use a large flat pan. The corrigated bottoms of a paint roller pan are a pain in the butt. Mix the resin in a cup. Put resin in pan ( I us the cheap plastic tupperware type pans) Saturate the foam roller well in pan. Roll the resin on with the roller, dipping the roller in the pan to re load. If you pour the resin on the board first you will float the cloth and will end up with far to much resin and have to pull the resin off with a squeege ending up with a lot of froth. Roll on a light layer of resin over a large area don't try to force the resin into the cloth, Let it soak in by itself. As you work your way down the board you can go back to the areas where there was not enough resin and roll on some more. Where there is not enough resin it will look dry .The sooner you get the resin spread on the board the longer time you will have to go back over the board and roll out an even coat. When you have it right there will be no shinny spots ontop of the cloth. If you see white spots in the glass there is not enough resin in that spot. You are not trying to cover the cloth just to saturate it. After the resin is set (stiff and chewy like a gummy bear) I roll on my first filler coat. Wants to be real thin. When that is dry enough (gummy bear) I fold up my cut lap tape and cut the lap from underneath the tape, that way it is cut an an angle and there is very little or no sanding to feather the lap. If you cut from the top down into the glass you can cut too deap into the board.and it leaves a big edge to feather sand down. I have never been able to do free laps with epoxy resin , I guess I am just not good enough !! When useing your roller if you roll diagonally to the weave of the cloth you will push out any wrinkles. If your resin should go off on you when you are still rolling (God forbid) don't try to continue rolling!!! Throw your roller on the floor and grab a squeege and use it to pull off all the sticky resin you can mix fresh resin, use a new roller lapping the new resin on to the gummy resin and continue down the board! This will save the day but you will have a shadow showing in the finished glass job where ever you start a new batch on a gummy batch!! Don't expect your firs glass job to be perfect. I like to try different brands of resin whenever I have a chance and when I do a make up a couple of samples to experiment on. I use plywood at least 1 foot by one foot.Cut a small roller about an inch wide, mix up a couple ounces of resin, put some glass down and roll out the resin. I roll it out nice and even, Then on half of the sample Put on more resin untill the roller wants to slip. Leave some resin in the mixing cup. I use these samples to see how the resin works and how long it takes to go off . The stuff left in the cup gives me an idea how hot it is. Does it foam up , melt the cup, smoke or just get hard and crack, If you know how it works on a sample it will be easier for you when you do the real thing.!!! After the first filler coat is done and it is dry a little harder then (gummy bear) you can flip the board and do a tape line for the other side . Second side done just like the first.After the first filler coat is gummy bear dry cut the lap.When the board is dry enough to sand (Like tomorrow or next weekend) Sand off the nibs, Dont sand into the cloth..I do two more roller fill coats allowing gummy bear dry between coats . When thats dry sand again . If you sand into the cloth to get it smooth that mean you need to roll on more resin. The sanding coats want to be rolled on real thin. Four thin coats are better than 2 thick coats. The thinner your coats are the less sanding you need..Now I am tired , go back and read Laughingloon ten more times !!!!!
hey ken, yup it’s epoxy resin. boatbuilding hobbyist-expats here say it’s good enough for their needs and have reassured me that it’ll come out clear and fuss-free. which worries me considering i can’t afford to mess up lamination. i start in 24 hours, and will post pic updates in my HWS D.I.Y. build thread
Boat resin, No problem, The only usefull information on their instruction sheet is the 2 to 1 mixing ratio. I think you need to take the time to make up a test panal. It's looks like a slow hardener. Put your glass cloth down first and wet it out letting the resin soak in. Do not let the mixed resin sit in the pot for 10 minutes or your gonna end up with a gummy mess. If you are rolling it out thin enough air bubbles wont be a problem. If this is a real thick resin you might want to warm the resin before mixing. Set the resin can out in the sun for a couple hours before you mix .(not the hardener). Would be a good idea to have a hair dryer handy, aftere you roll the resin out on the glass cloth you can do a quik pass with the hair drier to make the resin flow better. Again I recomend you do a test panel. Use 1 oz medicen cups and make up 1 oz harner and 2 oz resin. A test panel is really going to take a lot of stress off you. The sooner you get the mixed resin rolled on the more time you have to play with it and get everything even. You stop playing when it starts to get gummy. Your gonna do fine ! Wish I were there to lend a hand. Epoxy is a lot easier then polyester ! By the way the only time you let the bubbles float to the top of epoxy resin is when you are doing clear casting and then you are draining the resin out of a hole in the bottom of you resin cup ! Good luck SIR FIBER ---HE HE !!
per your suggestion the other day i bought a couple of disposable plastic salad trays last night for soaking the roller foam in, i just didn’t know i’d be needing a hair dryer for this too ! " )
btw i don’t want to waste resin-- how much is enough for an initial batch for my now-9-foot HWS + plant fiber hybrid?
with my ice cream tubs, i might end up mixing 3 pints total in a gallon container if i fill 'em up right to the collar.
that’s too much for the initial deck + rails coverage, 'no?
if the malls close late tonight, i better find myself a volumetric measuring device hmm . .
