So I have an observation and a question: I know why pintails have advantage on steep faces, but ever since I saw a video with Rastovich getting barrelled in some large Indo surf, I’ve been using my fish in larger and steeper surf, no slip problems yet. Someone pointed out that the tail is functionally a twin pintail. Seems like a reasonable concept to me, wondering what the cognoscenti here think about that.
Yes, a fish can be similar to double pins to a degree depending on how the swallow is shaped. But Dave Rastovich is also Dave Rastovich. He surf’s planks of wood and inflatable pool toys in uncommon conditions as well.
I have to disagree with that. In big, mushy surf, I find my fish much better than a conventional shorty. Faster, easier to have a longer ride and make sections. Leave guys on conventional thrusters behind. It’s in the pocket on hollow waves that I’m not as certain.
what curren said in that video knowaloha posted
wide tails get really squirrely in such critical situations with turbulence
flattened shortened surface area along with straighter outline leads to lots of speed
but straight bottomed, flat rockered and wide tailed things don’t fit well in extremely curved faces full of extreme white water turbulence.
that’s why mccoy’s nugget/lazer zap design seems to feel more at home in those kind of massive pockets
curren’s t.peterson fireball was designed to be loose and skaty with its steps and channels
but then again, i wonder how it would’ve gone if he had one of Griff’s flip nose flat bottom 5 fin mod fishes or with one of those Tomo kite boards curren rode against dane in that rincon contest. I bet the results and maybe history would’ve been allot different.
I think the future is some how in small, ultra small almost kite board small. What else is done to fit the rest of the pieces togethor for paddling and speed generation on the flats is beyond me. Morey described this to us over 40 years ago on Kauai with Vinnie Bryan. Maybe that’s why Stevie moved there…
Maybe that’s it…
the most universally effective surf craft is the sponge
My fish usually are 12 inches between the tips, 6.5 deep crack. Close to the formula. I’ve used the curve from my keels to make the inside curve of the crack, but also have a French curve marked off to get the curve I like.
Mine suck in mushy waves, in general. Work great in small, clean, hollow, lined up waves. I don’t ride big waves(big begins around doh in my book) so don’t know how they work in big waves. What’s big? Opinions vary. Biggest I surf them is probably 10 foot faces if I can find a ‘ramp’ to get me in before it all starts spinning. Usually much less as I get older.
They work equally well front side or backside and I dig surfing them backside.
I’m 54 years old and don’t surf in a contemporary style. I am a hobby shaper, long time recreational rider, have built about 50 or 60 fishes, almost all of them for myself, so take all this for what its worth to you. I currently have a 5-5, 5-8, 5-9, 3 6-0’s, and am fininishing a 6-2. Mike
The problem comes surfing big waves backhand on a fish type board- much more difficult. Not impossible but things get more sketchy especially for us non-pros.
you have to look at the type of waves that the fish was first tested. it was as a Knee board but quickly adapted for stand up. The reefs around San Diego can produce some powerful pitching waves. The Fish proved it's worth in those conditions. In my opinion the Fish works best in from knee slapers to surf just overhead.
I’ve been adding a little flip in the nose and some vee in the entry, and have been able to open up the performance envelop on my traditional fish considerably. But I’ve also taken a lesson from Pavel and started doing his bottoms… concaves… and have nailed the tail geometry as well, which I think is critical and underlooked.
Nj, entry vee and flip sounds good. can you elaborate more on the tail geometry
My take is that as you lift tail flip in pins you get forgiveness on drops. Until you go to infinite flip by removing the pin all together, giving a swallow or fish. Then you start dealing with the loss of drive by doing other things to the shape, like widening the tail…
Those inflatable pool toys are soooo much fun!!! Good for looong down the line tubes… Fishes, I ride my 6’ keel standing up and kneelo style too. I love to air drop into head high bowling reef lefts and drag my left arm elbow deep while powering the outside rail by grabbing it with my right hand to bottom turn kneeling into the tube on the fish… That said, I find it a bit too long to turn losely kneeling but it is so much fun to get barreled and go straight on it : )
[img_assist|nid=1064852|title=fish tail|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=640|height=478]
I tend to do things backwards… After experimenting with a bunch of different fish tails, I found one that I really liked. So I started to pick it apart and come up with a set of “rules” that would give me consistent results on different sized boards. One rule of thumb I use is that the surface area removed by the fish tail should be about 15% of the total area of the last foot of board. There’s a long mathematical process I use, but basically it comes down to two factors… tail shape and surface area removed. The process I use does both, and it’s in the archives… somewhere.
Lousy pic, but this will give you the idea…
i heard sb say the 2 times rule…
widt betw pins is twice the depth of buttcrack
thanks! Very cool.
I use that rule, too… the crack is half the tip-to-tip distance. The tip-to-tip distance is determined by the tail width. The tip shape is function of the tip-to-tip distance and depth of crack. The method I use creates the shape in the pic, which has an accelerated curve from crack to tip, with the top of the curve nearest the “taint?” being straighter… the curve accelerating and becoming more curvy toward the tips. I find the
straighter lines of the deepest part of the crack provide greater and more even
release than a continuous curve carried from the stringer to the tip. The more
release, the more responsive the shape, as water is allowed to quickly exit
from under the board down the middle, shifting the center of the turn’s axis
toward the rail. This allows the tip to penetrate slightly deeper, improving
bite and hold. Meanwhile, the fuller, more lobe-shaped tip area toward the end of the tail
provides a more fin-like projection through the turn when the board is on a rail, as the larger surface area of
the tip deflects more water than a tip with more of a point than a lobe at the
tip’s end.
Fish types are WORST ever in bigger, bumpy, mushier waves that don't break top to bottom, those higher tide type waves that break outside.
Like Sunset, would be bad. Like Pipe, might be OK. Haliewa the most horrid. Chuns/Lani ripping good, like Rocky.
Bad ouside OBSF, pretty good in the inside shorepounders.
I've been riding two basic fish boards the last few years, a 6'4" twin keel 21.5" wide with serious roll just in front of the fins, and a 5'11" 22" wide twin keel with a flattened "hull" bottom. Both boards have deep swallows and pinched Liddle rails. The 6'4" works great in waves up to just under DOH, mushy or steep. The 5'11" gets pretty squirrly at about 1.5 OH unless I have it up on a rail where it works just fine. I think the key is the length to width ratio rather than any other design factor. The swallow is just a method for keeping a wide tail in the water (center of effort) when you step back on the back third of the board.
I think fish are extemely versatile, but that's just me and they work well with the way I like to surf; carving big GS turns...
Lee,
What is an advantageous length to width ratio? Mike
Lee… I’d consider the heavily rolled bottom a primary factor in the performance of your 6’4 in bigger surf. If I was to build a fish for overhead surf, that’s what I’d do. My fish work best in waves head high and under, steep or slopey. They have slight vee in the entry, to shallow single, to shallow doubles out the back, carried right through the swallows.