I do make full size blanks: 12 different sizes. Soon to be 15. I was telling Holderlin about the test molds as a way to move away from cups into a practical application without wasting a shit ton of material while developing new formulas.
The thing that perplexes me the most about PU foam is…
Why do shapers and board builders put up with a foam that has a varying density and reduced “toughness” the more you remove the hard outer skin??
To me ( just a dumb plumber)… That’s a serious fault in the materials properties… We’ve all heard about “over shaped” decks where the foam is too weak because someone planed off too much crusty shit from the deck… What’s up with that ??
When I buy 1.5. , 2.0, etc. EPS or even XPS., that’s what I’m expecting no matter how thin I shape the foam…
My 5# per. cubic. Core Cell is “all that” no matter how thin I sand it…
I know, I know… It’s me that’s messed up… It’s the lineage thing…
lol. Yeah you're talking like Loehr and and others in 2007. But the reality is that in the industry EPS accounts for less than 28% of all surfboards produced. I am not including SUPs and Sail or kite boards in that figure which other than yourself and a few others are made in Viet Nam, Thailand and China. Epoxy resin has gained market share. Some glass Poly with Epoxy. Only someone who is detached from the Surf Industry and a Sways devotee would propose that Poly had seen it's day. I used to tell my liberal friends in Santa Cruz that they had no idea what was going on in the rest of the United States or what folks outside the city limits of SC thought. Alot like sending a new congressman to DC. In no time at all they belief what they hear around the cocktaill parties. Reality and Swaylocks are two differant things.
I make and sell PU blanks and I’ll be the first one to say there’s better alternatives. They aren’t necessarily EPS though.
I started with PU because I could afford the start up costs and Like McDing said, its what the market currently supports and will support for the foreseeable future. I have some alternatives in mind that I’ve begun researching, but I’ll be waiting till i have enough capital together that I can afford to blow a chunk of dough on the pipe dream of a ‘revolutionary new product.’ S
If you are already using Epoxy resins, you should try to find an XTR rep and see what they’re doing with foam. I got a beatup blank and made a board out of it recently. It’s extremely light. I did the glass 4 bottom, double 4 top and it seems pretty solid. Definitely holding up better than 2lb construction grade EPS with the same glassing on the top.
I don’t know what is used to make XPS blanks, but I think they may eventually be the winner if PU disappears. The XPS foams seem lighter and stronger than EPS, they are a lot easier to shape, and they don’t suck water like EPS. Just have to be careful about leaving them in the heat.
If you go back to the first post here, you’ll notice that Holderlin seems to looking for someone already making blanks that would like to try a new formula. If I had working moulds, I’d give him a try and see what he can do. There may be something of value here, a win-win for the right 2 parties. Any of you newer blank guys might want to let him bring his juice over and see what he’s talking about. You never know.
The guy with the Ice-9 moulds would be a perfect partner to see if this is for real or all BS.
I still think its all smoke. But based on what hes said so far, even if he isnt chockers, I dont think its feasible. Not just raw material cost, but through put would be ridiculous slow. Unless, theres shapers out there willing to drop 200-300 bucks on a PU blank that doesnt yellow quite as fast.
I’ll be honest, theres a chance he might have something with a urethane based laminating resin. I used to do work with PPG on urethane coatings, so I can say theres potential with that type of material in that application, but I havent done that kind of formulation work in over 5 years.
No… I dont know Loehr… I’m talking like a guy who’s done nothing but HD foam / wood skinned EPS…
I know very little about PU blanks…
I asked some questions… Non have been answered fully… imho…
I want you to tell me why I should ever want to spend $80 to $100 on a chunk of foam with a piece of wood glued in the middle…
Because it looks good???
XPS is the same material (polymer) as EPS. It’s polystyrene. EPS is fused beads with air spaces between – open cell – that soaks up water like a sponge. XPS is extruded (pushed through a die while not solid I believe) with gas added through chemical reaction as it goes through the die. So the air cells in XPS are sealed, that is, “closed cell” foam, which is why it doesn’t soak up water. See this link (XPS at bottom of page):
http://www.segwaycomposites.com/EPS-Foam.html
I think a “skin” that improves bonding between foam and composite may be the needed improvement for XPS cores. I think Everysurfer may have stumbled onto a good “top secret” use for Skinz.
From the surf industry stand point I wish I could answer your questions concerning “heyday,” and such of PU foam. I wish I had that crystal ball.
From an “environmental standpoint”… you have to consider the overall market when it comes to foamed plastics, polyurethane, and the combination of the two. The surfboard industry is a drop in the bucket. Shoe soles and couch cushions, semi rigid and flexible, almost all are made with TDI based foams. Appliance (refrigerator) insulation is made with MDI based foams because of the finer cell structure which gives better thermal properties that EPS will never match. 10 years from now PU might not be used in surfboards, but I don’t see it disappearing from production in thousands of other products anytime in my life.
Thanks.
I think the end is near from a surf industry stand point…There are better build materials… Unless cosmetics are your prime concern…
[quote=“$1”]
Only reason its what you refer to as “top secret” is because of inept leadership, and marketing.
[quote=“$1”]
Let’s get the quotes right.
Thanks for trying Kiterider.
Funny how those who know better than I don’t want to answer my questions…
What’s the attraction to this PU foam?
Hi Kiterider,
PU foam has it’s pluses.
EPS sucks water. Mo matter what, it sucks water. Some more, some less, but it sucks water. Get a ding, get out of the water. Not so good for a travel board.
Nothing sticks well to XPS. Maybe some things help, but still nothing sticks well to it. Just laminate a swatch to a chunk of foam. Gassing or not, it takes almost nothing to peel the glass right off.
For a board that is going to be “rode hard and put up wet” PU has advantages.
Have you tried prepping the XPS surface with 60 grit or lower sandpaper before laminating? Roughing the foam up increases surface area for bonding. Several say bonding is fine using that method. I think the low grit surface prep + Skinz between glass and foam may improve that even more.
I plan to use the low grit surfacing like Surfding and some others have recommended. I have some Skinz and will do a little experimenting with home insulation XPS first.
Seems like those who have problems with XPS haven’t scored the surface right before laminating. Either that or they use the lower density Home Depot/Lowes type XPS home insulation rather than the Dow High Load. I guess I’ll find out for myself with mine.
My take on the PU thing is that people have spent a lot of time figuring out how to use those materials and make a really good products very fast and very efficiently. In a factory setting time is very important, so keeping that down to a minimum is cost savings. Cost savings is important to any business, and if you are really good at doing something with very specific materials, you don’t want to mess with using stuff you’re not familiar with. It may affect the quality of your product in a negative way.
When Clark foam shut down everyone had to scramble to figure out the little nuances of the new foam. I think a lot of people were looking for the stuff that came the closest to what they were used to. I hadn’t touched a Poly blank since about 1980 or so, and when I started back I was using EPS insulation foam, so for me there wasn’t any problem using new Poly foam, cause it was all new.
I can say that going from making wood skinned EPS core boards to PU/PE was a treat. I can make a board in a day or 2 using poly blanks with Poly-UV resin. Poly foam cuts like soft butter compared to EPS. Poly resin sands easier than Epoxy, and Epoxy resin needs more time to cure, or it needs an oven to post cure. All of this affects production time, and it probably is a big contributor to change.
The biggest problem for a big change is that pro surfers don’t want to make the change from boards that they know will help them win contests. Once the big name pros only ride EPS boards or XPS boards the masses will follow. I’m surprised guys like Stretch haven’t had a bigger impact on that. Maybe the manufacturers only want to give the pros the cheapest boards they can since they give them away for free. I don’t know anything about that scene.
Anyway back to this thread… someone out there with a mould should get together with this guy. Is it for real or is it all BS. If it’s for real, there’s going to be some money to be made.
I have access to molds, but I am not looking to get into the foam business, as I have seen how hard it is to please customers, that don’t have money, or expect because they think they’re cool deserve everything for free. Furthermore, Hank Johns still has boards I made 15 years ago with the original Skinz, on extruded styrofoam that haven’t delammed because of gassing. I even introduced Hank to Javier back then, and one of the boards he still has was glassed by Javier, on my recommendation.