Foam. How do you like it?

[holderlin]

@$1

@$1

 surfblanks are all classified as extremely rigid foams, so as a materials scientist I would say that the differences are small among all blanks, but of course a shaper would say different, understandbly so.

I disagree and I am not a professional shaper.  And the surfer cares about pressure dings and delams.

Minimum compressive strength, density or flexural strength.  Rigidity?

The range of minimum compressive strength alone varies significantly from a 1.5 pcf foam to a 3.0 pcf foam -- approxomately 15 psi to 60 psi -- depending on foam type.  It does not necessarily correlate with density.

Bonding is affected by surface texture, porosity and shear strength also.

Too many variables.  Too many subjective preferences.

The ultimate foam? Unlikely ...

Edit:  No hate.  Just dispassionate discussion and an objective (as much as possible) review of posts in this thread on my part.  Make your product.  Put it in the hands of a good shaper/glasser.  Then put it under a good surfer in good waves.  Performance with a competitive price is the seller.

No hate observed

[holderlin]

@$1

 

Holderlin, are you making a UV resistant foam with alaphatic based isocyanates? Is that how you are achieving a “snow white foam that will stay white forever?”

 

To clear up some confusion… I will agree that aliphatic isocyanates are more expensive, but not 25% more expensive. Add a zero to that percentage. But that’s not the only reason why I don’t use them. And i also agree that aliphatic based urethanes are more uv resistant.  However, Aromatic based polyols are more expensive than aliphatics. Hopefully that clears up some of our disagreement.

You may be on to something here. And the price increase was my price, not cost. That was the total price decrease of a, say 3 pcf foam, not just the raw material you speak of.

 

@$1

I still disagree about your assertions that MDI is fine compared to TDI. It’s not. And once again, molecular weight is not why its less volatile. Think about blowing agents that boil at  30C and have a higher MW than TDI. 

I will eventually get you some MDI samples and I will laugh with you. 

 

 

 

[holderlin]

@$1

 

I still think you’re blowing smoke and mostly full of shit

 

Aliphatic or aromatic, it all will discolor in the sun relatively quickly. 

 

Did anyone get a sample of his magic foam?

 

This is funny

[holderlin]

@$1

You’re whinin’. If you could produce something other that theory, hot air or hype.  Probably a few people from this site might try it.  Real shapers don’t shape tiny surfboards out of tiny samples.  Produce a blank.  I can buy an ice chest at Walmart and shape a tiny sample out of it.  Nobody is going to buy anything if you haven’t produced something.  Seems to me you just want people to buy into your ideas.

I have a sarcophagus in my garage that I made myself with urethane LHT240/LG56-Lupranate MI and a moded US Blanks blank blank…blank, and it works great. The problem is that i have a good job, and i really need to think before I start pouring mad plugs and shipping them all over the place just to pwn all you phaegs. Because I could get in trouble. Anyway, I feel that feel bro.

[holderlin]

@$1

The thing that perplexes me the most about PU foam is…

Why do shapers and board builders put up with a foam that has a varying density and reduced “toughness” the more you remove the hard outer skin??

To me ( just a dumb plumber)… That’s a serious fault in the materials properties…  We’ve all heard about “over shaped” decks where the foam is too weak because someone planed off  too much crusty shit  from the deck…    What’s up with that ??

 

When I buy   1.5. ,  2.0,   etc.   EPS or even  XPS., that’s what I’m expecting no matter how thin I shape the foam…

My 5#  per. cubic. Core Cell is  “all that”   no matter how thin I sand it…

I know,  I know…       It’s me that’s messed up… It’s the lineage thing…

Now this is the most solid feedback I’ve gotten. Gold star.

[holderlin]

@$1

@$1

Nothing sticks well to XPS.  Maybe some things help, but still nothing sticks well to it.  Just laminate a swatch to a chunk of foam.  Gassing or not, it takes almost nothing to peel the glass right off.

Have you tried prepping the XPS surface with 60 grit or lower sandpaper before laminating?  Roughing the foam up increases surface area for bonding.  Several say bonding is fine using that method.  I think the low grit surface prep + Skinz between glass and foam may improve that even more.

I plan to use the low grit surfacing like Surfding and some others have recommended.  I have some Skinz and will do a little experimenting with home insulation XPS first.  

Seems like those who have problems with XPS haven’t scored the surface right before laminating.  Either that or they use the lower density Home Depot/Lowes type XPS home insulation rather than the Dow High Load.  I guess I’ll find out for myself with mine.

Have you tried a primer? Like a good one.

[holderlin]

I’ve heard something about these mysterious Ice 9 molds, and I like them because I plan on making my molds in a similar fashion. The price needs to be hammered out though. I needs pics, or to go look at them.

[haavard]

@$1

The thing that perplexes me the most about PU foam is…

Why do shapers and board builders put up with a foam that has a varying density and reduced “toughness” the more you remove the hard outer skin??

To me ( just a dumb plumber)… That’s a serious fault in the materials properties…  We’ve all heard about “over shaped” decks where the foam is too weak because someone planed off  too much crusty shit  from the deck…    What’s up with that ??

When I buy   1.5. ,  2.0,   etc.   EPS or even  XPS., that’s what I’m expecting no matter how thin I shape the foam…

My 5#  per. cubic. Core Cell is  “all that”   no matter how thin I sand it…

Similar things happen with EPS and XPS, the EPS may have ridiculous bad binding between the beads in the center of the blown block, that’s why the shapers prefer the EPS blanks which are blown for the purpose of making surfboards in small forms over the hotwired blanks(Though EDRO EPS is supposedly better than standard insulation EPS). And atleast some of the XPS blocks have a weird crust, and the ‘grain’ of the foam is different throughout the block.

I think the main reason why shapers put up with todays PU foam is that it’s relativly cheap, works with cheap polyester, is white, have a uniform surface that can be sprayed with gfx(cosmetic reasons) and is ridiculous easy to shape.

Wouldn’t it be nice if the PU blank had the density and strength of corecell in the outer crust (say 1/2" thick and 2-3" in from the rail so you have some room for shaping it) and 1.0-1.5lbs EPS density in the interior? Dual density core, kind of like a sandwichboard without the hassle. Someone did this already… But the standard PU core is a little bit of that too. Just don’t overshape it.

regards,

Håvard

[haavard]

@$1

I’ve heard something about these mysterious Ice 9 molds, and I like them because I plan on making my molds in a similar fashion. The price needs to be hammered out though. I needs pics, or to go look at them.

Ice-Nine Foam Works 4 What Its Worth

Seems like a much nicer operation than this…

- YouTube

 

[haavard]

@$1

@$1

@$1

Nothing sticks well to XPS.  Maybe some things help, but still nothing sticks well to it.  Just laminate a swatch to a chunk of foam.  Gassing or not, it takes almost nothing to peel the glass right off.

Have you tried prepping the XPS surface with 60 grit or lower sandpaper before laminating?  Roughing the foam up increases surface area for bonding.  Several say bonding is fine using that method.  I think the low grit surface prep + Skinz between glass and foam may improve that even more.

Have you tried a primer? Like a good one.

According to some old info posted on sways a long time ago(which I of course can’t find…), the reason that nothing sticks to XPS was that they use a non stick additive (teflon was it?) mixed with the raw material when the extrude it to keep it from sticking to the form. And then there is the outgassing issue with blowing agent being released from the closed cells when the break down. And this gass expand at what rate with temperature? Higher that air I would guess? But surely a rough surface helps

[BgSurfer]

@$1

Have you tried a primer? Like a good one.

What would be a good primer?  Example?

[BgSurfer]

@$1

According to some old info posted on sways a long time ago(which I of course can’t find…), the reason that nothing sticks to XPS was that they use a non stick additive (teflon was it?) mixed with the raw material when the extrude it to keep it from sticking to the form. And then there is the outgassing issue with blowing agent being released from the closed cells when the break down. And this gass expand at what rate with temperature? Higher that air I would guess? But surely a rough surface helps

I read the same thing somewhere about an additive.  Read all I could find from DOW etc. about XPS but couldn’t find anything about a teflon like additive.  Seems like it could be more to do with the finer/smaller cell structure of XPS foam which wouldn’t give as good a bonding surface as EPS or PU.

Doesn’t seem like closed cells should release gas unless they are ruptured (pressure dings?).  Gas should be gone from cells ruptured with shaping.  Gas expansion and cell rupture in the outer surface cells with high heat, possibly.  But the DOW High Load is made for heavy duty/commercial temperature insulation (cold more than heat?).

I’ve got the XPS and there’s no going back now.  Guess I’ll find out one way or another.

[holderlin]

@$1

@$1

@$1

@$1

Nothing sticks well to XPS.  Maybe some things help, but still nothing sticks well to it.  Just laminate a swatch to a chunk of foam.  Gassing or not, it takes almost nothing to peel the glass right off.

Have you tried prepping the XPS surface with 60 grit or lower sandpaper before laminating?  Roughing the foam up increases surface area for bonding.  Several say bonding is fine using that method.  I think the low grit surface prep + Skinz between glass and foam may improve that even more.

Have you tried a primer? Like a good one.

According to some old info posted on sways a long time ago(which I of course can’t find…), the reason that nothing sticks to XPS was that they use a non stick additive (teflon was it?) mixed with the raw material when the extrude it to keep it from sticking to the form. And then there is the outgassing issue with blowing agent being released from the closed cells when the break down. And this gass expand at what rate with temperature? Higher that air I would guess? But surely a rough surface helps

The additive is a siloxane release agent and it’s no wonder people have trouble sticking to it. You can try to wash it off with some acetone, a common adhesion promotion treatment, but another issue with Stryrenes it that they’re not very chemically resistant, so you could dissolve your surface a bit, but it still might work. Anyone try this?

[holderlin]

@$1

@$1

I’ve heard something about these mysterious Ice 9 molds, and I like them because I plan on making my molds in a similar fashion. The price needs to be hammered out though. I needs pics, or to go look at them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2hejoOEZ_A

Seems like a much nicer operation than this…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvurqUSItuQ&feature=related

 

 

Yeah that looks pretty tight, but I can see why they had trouble tweeking their process. That’s the problem when you get a process that’s dependent on a lot of equipment, it often makes it way more of a pain the ass to change things if you need to. Think of what it costs a company like Dow just to tweak their ethylene process a bit.

[holderlin]

@$1

@$1

Have you tried a primer? Like a good one.

What would be a good primer?  Example?

We (my company) sells an epoxy as well as a urethane primer that both work really well, although the urethane primer is an ugly color. So if you need it nice and clear I would try such an epoxy primer, like roll or brush on. Shit you could even cut it with some diluent, mix it up, and spray it on with spray bottle.

And I know your thinking “how would an epoxy primer work if I cant get my glassing epoxy to stick?” and my answer would be that I don’t know, but there are some other goodies in the primer; adhesion promotion additives, wetting agents etc. all of which may or may not do a damn thing for such a low energy surface. So a thin coat before glassing may work or it may not do anything. 

[stoneburner]

@$1

The additive is a siloxane release agent and it’s no wonder people have trouble sticking to it. You can try to wash it off with some acetone, a common adhesion promotion treatment, but another issue with Stryrenes it that they’re not very chemically resistant, so you could dissolve your surface a bit, but it still might work. Anyone try this?

Shaping the foam should remove any surface agent additive.

[ghettorat]

Holderin, If your serious, I have access to already made molds, not Ice9’s.

[f1f859bda2f2a3ab344c]

@$1

 

Wouldn’t it be nice if the PU blank had the density and strength of corecell in the outer crust (say 1/2" thick and 2-3" in from the rail so you have some room for shaping it) and 1.0-1.5lbs EPS density in the interior? Dual density core, kind of like a sandwichboard without the hassle. Someone did this already… But the standard PU core is a little bit of that too. Just don’t overshape it.

regards,

Håvard

Thanks  Havard.

That would be cool… It would have to be a very close tolerance blank though, I’d imagine…

[McDing]

That's a question that you should direct to 95% of all US surfboard shapers.  I'm sure they could school you.  What you need to do to build a kiteboard has little to do with the surfboard industry as a whole.  Maybe in the world of Sways, but not in reality.

[BgSurfer]

@$1

Furthermore, Hank Johns still has boards I made 15 years ago with the original Skinz, on extruded styrofoam that haven’t delammed because of gassing. 

Did you prep the XPS surface with 60 grit before laminating?  Lower?