foiling fins - teaser/explanation

Hi Guys,

 

This is the contents of a PM with fins - previously chippy61 - seems there’s so much interest in making fins (I can understand why) but the basics of foiling seem to be a lost art.
I suppose the same thing happened to wooden buggy wheel craftsmen with the advent of the automobile…

When I was sanding it was a job pre-requisite as all of the fins were glass-ons except for box singles. The blanks were rough cut from blanks with a band saw and I was given an exmaple of each shapers fins for the foil.
The only boxes available were the single centre standard 10-12" and smaller sides, plus the O’Fishl’s which were being used by Frank Latta - who was making some pretty adventurous mals and mini mals.

fins is going to send me some small panels so I’ll make a video of foiling and post it up.
I have added a comment or two for clarification.

 

Foiling fins is actually really easy. When I was sanding I literally
got 1/2 hours instruction. I was working for John Fleck - Jams glasssing
down in Brookvale, below Aloha - became Chaos surfboards at some stage,
it’s changed again, not sure who’s there now. - This was all 25 years
ago now.

Anyway…
For glass panel fins it’s a hard disc, 60 grade paper and smooth
sweeping runs along the outline (leading and trailing edges).
This was with a makita 2 speed, 8" sander polisher and a 6" backup pad
on high speed. For practice, you could do as well with an 8" sander
polisher, 6" hard pad, 60 grit pad and some plywood.
Using finer grits on timber will lead to burning, so harsher grit,
faster sweeps/cuts and maybe a slower machine speed if you’ve got a
variable speed unit.

Addition: The pads I’m referring to are Power Pads ~1 1/2" thick foam, with a fabric cover on the pad surface, and the plastic backing which attaches to the machine. I was until recently still using disc cement on my pads, but just converted them to the hook/loop velcro.

They were clamped in a vice, horizontal, below waist high (crotch level)
This is key, too high - and you don’t have the sight line and machine control.

All three were clamped initially to cleanup the outline as they were bandsaw cut from panel.

Foiling: You actually use mostly the weight of the machine to do the cutting
and the sweeping movement is smooth, multiple passes, they’re really
quite quick too.

Imagine it like a dance move, you keep the sander out in front close
to your body and move your arms and shift your weight from one leg to
the other as you swing through.

Black glass fins are the easiest as you can see the material removed
easily, though with some fine plywood you will get the same visual
feedback for practice.

The trailing edge is simple enough, remove the majority of the
material at the same angle, working from base to tip, with the pad
almost flat to the surface you are foiling. The trick is the sweep along
the shape of the outline.

If you use a sander polisher for board sanding you’ll know what I
mean, always keep it flat and you won’t get gouges or sandthroughs.

The leading edge is simple also, now I used to have ~5 different
foils to do, 4 were the same more or less, ones for Greg Clough at the
time were quite different. close to a radius leading edge and all of the
thickness almost all the way out ot the tip, then a very straight line
to the trailing egde.

The leading edge for those was easy, first few cuts at 45 degrees,
then shifting the machine angle for the successive cuts between 45 -
horizontal and 45 down to vertical.
Left hand stayed at the same level, right hand goes up and down
accordingly.

I wish I could get some glass panel, not too keen on laying it up myself, then I could foil some and make a video

I’ll give some plywood ones a whirl and see if I can get a smooth/clean cuts.

Hope this all makes sense, if it doesn’t hang on for a video.

peace out

Ruckusman,looks like you’ve designed the swiss army knife of shaping stands!

i am loving all this info…thanku

was about make my stand nearly a foot above waist level.

wont be now…cheers

****************************************************

" I'll give some plywood ones a whirl and see if I can get a smooth/clean cuts.

Hope this all makes sense, if it doesn't hang on for a video.

peace out   "

 

....hiya again , Glenn !

 

Just a quick "check in"  , to see if you have had any time to foil the plywood , or the fibreglass panels , yet ?

 

   cheers mate !

 

    ben

cool, thanks for posting! Looking forward to more

....tremendous , ruckus !

thanks , mate !

...to be continued ....

 

[the background to the pm is ...

 

I had in the past asked for footage on foiling , as had others , here ...but none ever happened from anyone ...

 

 WHY should fin foiling be portayed / treated as some kind of 'dark art' / a 'secret art ' , not to be shared with people , when surfboard builds and info are freely shared here ??? 

 

 because ruckus mentioned he had foiled fins in a previous post , I thought , 'go to the source ... [hopefully]  maybe THIS guy will not 'keep it to himself !" 

 so , thank you for being generous with your knowledge and experience here , mate ...THAT , to me , is the 'Swaylocks' spirit ....LIVED OUT !  good on ya !

 

 Once I have teed up two panels to send you , 

 I'll  eagerly await seeing the footage , so MY fins can inprove , too !  [ I will 'p.m.' you further , re: the panels ]

 

  cheers ! 

   ben  chipper , west oz  , 6019

Glad to be in the spirit…

All this time I’ve absorbed all manner of information on new techniques and materials, whilst not realising I had something valuable to give in return.

There’s so many ideas on this site it’s wonderful, now if I can do my part to help facilitate development cycles of those ideas about fins, I’ve done good!

The measure of a person isn’t what they take, it’s what they give

 

peace out

 

 

"All this time I've absorbed all manner of information on new techniques and materials, whilst not realising I had something valuable to give in return."

 

yep !

 

..... there are now over 18, 000 people here , registered as 'members' of 'Swaylock's .

 

  Just imagine the expertise , experience , and SKILLS hiding amongst these people [probably 17,000 or more , at a rough guess ?] , who don't post at all ??? .....

 

" The measure of a person isn't what they take, it's what they give "

 

yep .... SPOT ON , again !

 

     cheers Glenn !

 

     ben

Very cool! Eagerly awaiting the video for this one.

Fin theory has been discussed quite a bit, but the actual practice of foiling a fin, especially as it relates to a production shop has only been touched on a small bit in random threads. I’m sure there is a lot to be learned in efficiency in your methods.

My first set of wood fins took me forever to foil, but I used a random orbit sander as that’s all I had. Making my own opened my eyes to the possibilities though. I need to get back into it.

WHOAH you used a random orbital - you have patience and perseverance in abundance grasshopper

The only thing I am going to add at this point is that 8" sander polishers can be heavy, intimidating and brutal - But if used properly they can be as accurate as a scalpel.

For anyone in OZ there are Ryobi units available at Bunnings ~$120, they’re not bad units at all, 2 year warranty, and from experience the only issue they have is the speed controller ~$40 to replace, I had one last 5 years with intermittent usage.

If anyone is glassing and sanding boards using anything other than an 8" sander then you’re doing it the hard way…

Somewhere on here we talked about this a few years ago, myself and some others gave some relatively detailed info that sounded a lot like what ruckusman is posting. Big surprise, lol, because he's talking about basic time-tested techniques that are used by almost all pro fin-foilers. The following is not directed at ruckusman but rather the more general sways audience...

I had already foiled a bunch of my own fins when I met Jim Phillips and started to build boards out of his factory, but I'd definitely give Jim credit for showing me how to do it right. For a few years, I made all the fins for the factory (except for Jim's exotic wood/glass combos, which he did himself). I'd lay up the sheets (~30''x30''), cut 'em out on bandsaw, and foil on a clamping fixture Jim built.

Tip #1 is to NOT cut the base of fin on template line; leave some excess to clamp to and then you can also foil past your endline. Go back to bandsaw and cut bases off last, after all foiling. There's almost always enough of this excess on the sheet as you ''fit'' your templates on when drawing out.

I'd rather use a 7'' #36 hard disc for most of the foiling. It's really easy to destroy a PowerPad, so I only used those for finish work. It's much like doing rail bands, especially the leading edge. The first step is taking the majority of the meat out of rear part of fin, in one big ''band''. Smooth sweeping ''passes'' and constant pressure (tool weight helps, give me a big, bad Milwaukee) are the key. Then go to leading edge and put in a primary band at ~45d.

Tip #2 is to wait until this point to true fin outline. You'll have much less material to true, which makes the job easier/faster.

From there it's secondary bands. The front will be much like a downrail (for a flat-inside side fin, symmetrical foils you're aiming at 50% and having a sheet with contrast color down center really helps). The rear is a little trickier, pay close attention to getting thickness out of trailing edge unless you want your fins to hum because they don't know the words.

Tip #3 is to watch the base-to-tip taper, and make a few '''flat'' passes to reduce fin thickness toward the tip (beyond what your intersections of bands are going to yield).

Blending and finishing is where I would switch to medium PowerPad with good #80. Back then it was 3M Resinite, nowadays I'd use Indasa. This will also be good for breaking surface on flat side (for bonding during glass-on). Hand sanding at very end with stiff paper; the folded over used Resinite discs were the tool of choice at Jim's factory.

Files are great for DIY, if you get some imperfections doing the above it's better to hit at spots with a file held so that it's ''planing'' rather than trying to ''spot-sand'' with hard disc or PowerPad. Adjusting the trailing edge thickness is a good example.

Or you can always buy a set Greg Griffin's fins and study the perfection of how he does it. Every fin freak should have some Griffs just to use as something to strive for.

can't wait to see FOOTAGE

Thanks guys, very timely info. I’ve got 7 plywood fins sitting on my workbench right now. I cut them out with a jigsaw last week and I’m planning to foil them sometime during this week. All I need to do is work out how to set them up so they’re horizontal.

If anyone wants to post photos of the clamping setup they use while foiling, I wouldn’t object…

Mine’s pretty budget

...yep , mine is similar , 'nuclearfishin'  ! ....       :)

http://www2.swaylocks.com/forums/mr-beerfan?page=5   [ see 'post 60' , at the bottom of the page ] 

 

  By the way , Glenn , I can't play links to video or 'youtube' stuff on my computer , unfortunately ...  so , I might need you to burn your footage to either a thumb drive or a dvd , if that's okay with you , please , mate ?

 

  cheers !

 

  ben

[URL=http://s161.photobucket.com/albums/t207/chippy61/fins/?action=view&current=DSCF2516.mp4][IMG]http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t207/chippy61/fins/th_DSCF2516.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

 

it's meant to be footage , for some reason it ended up a frame grab here ?   From p.37 of my  fins  photo album on photobucket

 

 

  cheers !

 

  ben

 

 

NuclearFishin - interesting setup, and I really like that g-clamp with the vice grip head. A welding clamp? Think I should get me one of those

I’ll take some shots of my shaping/glassing/sanding stand tomorrow. It’s also going to get the fin foiling attachment/vice so I’ll finish that before taking the shots.

I wish I could have had footage of the WHOLE foiling procedure , but my friend who filmed it was only wearing shorts and t shirt , so ....

NuclearFishin, that is one cool clamp!

Where’d you get it? (The one that is actually holding the fin)

I’ve never seen one like it.