I have 2 friends of intermediate surfing ability who want help making their own surfboards (their first projects). They have thankfully despaired of riding BICS. They want something easy to shape and glass, about 10’ with emphasis on glide and stability in the white water. No requirement for nose riding or radical turning. I thought max. 24" wide, square tail min. 12" no vee. What rocker could I get away with? Nose 3.5"? Maybe some nose kick to minmise pearling? Tail 3" or even less? No roll on the bottom anywhere. Flat. Down turned eliptical / sharpish rails to reduce drag. Thin raked 9-10" fin set forward to enhance turning. They are keen on epoxy so a single layer of 6oz on the bottom, 2 6oz on the deck should produce a light board surely not more than 15 lbs. Would increased weight improve glide or do you need some displacement hull features to go with that? I’m very much focussed on Simmons boards at the moment so i’m wondering how they could incorporate those featues into these boards as much as possible. Could you get away with zero to minimal tail rocker with a single fin and still be able to turn it somewhat? I’m even wondering how a twin keel Simmons in the 8 - 10’ range would go?
I'm no longboard expert or any kind of expert, by a long shot, but I would think about 3" rocker in the tail, 5-6" in the nose, would be plenty flat for a 10' board.
10' is a lot of board to shape and glass, for a first project. I'd suggest you get 'em a blank that's as close to the finished shape as possible.
Your comment "stability in the white water" has me confused. Who shapes a board to ride the white water?
Thanks Huckleberry. 3" tail rocker sounds good. Could nose rocker not be reduced to 4" to increase planing area?
Regarding blanks we live in the UK and Homeblown have a low rocker 9’2" with T3.2in & N3.7in. I want to find out if they will provide a 10’ with similiar rocker. That would be close enough. 10’ x 21.6" nose x 26.3in mid x 18.2" tail x 10.2" tail end x 3.4in thick. Apart from reducing the width they could basically clean up a blank like that - bit of work in the rails though.
Stability in the white water - these guys want to use these boards to ride the Severn Bore. The bore wave often produces a clean shoulder and face which when steep enough you could ride anything but when it backs off then bigger boards with glide function better. (Similiar to the sea wave at Saunton, Devon at mid tide if anyone is familiar with it). Much of the bore wave is white water though and boards with narrow tails become twitchy and unstable. I have a recently completed 6’4" mini simmons which in the sea flies along the clean face and is incredibly stable in white water but on the bore wave also flies on clean face but in the white water its goes strangely sluggish and is often pulled out the back of the wave. its a different wave dynamic. I thought a longer simmons would function better. With so many mediocre sea breaks in the world where its often a quick close out and then foamy all the way to the beach I would have thought there would be a demand for stability in the white water but perhaps only for beginners?
They’ll glue up whatever rocker you want. Will they ship out a blank that big?
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They'll glue up whatever rocker you want. Will they ship out a blank that big?
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I spoke to Homeblown this morning. Yes they will give me whatever I want - I just have to tell them - and they will do it in a day or 2. And there's no problem them sending out 10 footers for a small carriage cost. Before Christmas. Sounds like great service. I still haven't established whether I need to specify more than just nose and tail rocker. There's all the important measurements in between.But we are trying to keep it simple here. A standard low profile rockered blank would be great.
IMO…
If your friends are looking for glide and stability in less than perfect conditions then having some weight is a good thing, as is a wider tail and a little roll in the entry and rails. Lightweight boards with narrow tails are all about trying to get the board vertical. Based on what you’re saying your friends are looking to cruise on that wave, not rip.
Back in the day, longboards had about the same amount of rocker in the tail as in the nose. A little vee in the tail (even 1/8") goes a long way.
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IMO...
If your friends are looking for glide and stability in less than perfect conditions then having some weight is a good thing, as is a wider tail and a little roll in the entry and rails. Lightweight boards with narrow tails are all about trying to get the board vertical. Based on what you're saying your friends are looking to cruise on that wave, not rip.
Back in the day, longboards had about the same amount of rocker in the tail as in the nose. A little vee in the tail (even 1/8") goes a long way.
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Thanks GDaddy. Cruise not rip would sum it up. Too light is a concern. Weight could be increased by additional glassing but it seems daft to use a lot of epoxy. Otherwise its backed to heavily glassed PE resin.
Did not the old 9'2" Malibus have about 3.75" in the tail and 3.5" in the nose? More in the tail for nose riding?
Vee would surely speed it up not slow it down?
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Thanks Huckleberry. 3" tail rocker sounds good. Could nose rocker not be reduced to 4" to increase planing area?
Stability in the white water - these guys want to use these boards to ride the Severn Bore. The bore wave often produces a clean shoulder and face which when steep enough you could ride anything but when it backs off then bigger boards with glide function better. (Similiar to the sea wave at Saunton, Devon at mid tide if anyone is familiar with it). Much of the bore wave is white water though and boards with narrow tails become twitchy and unstable. I have a recently completed 6'4" mini simmons which in the sea flies along the clean face and is incredibly stable in white water but on the bore wave also flies on clean face but in the white water its goes strangely sluggish and is often pulled out the back of the wave. its a different wave dynamic. I thought a longer simmons would function better. With so many mediocre sea breaks in the world where its often a quick close out and then foamy all the way to the beach I would have thought there would be a demand for stability in the white water but perhaps only for beginners?
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I suspected it was for something like that! Sounds exciting. I know that minimal rocker in the nose can and has been done. Back in the day, when foam or wood blank options were limited, the rocker was too. But since you have more options today, I would still put just a bit of "curl up" in the very nose. I think most all longboards today have it? Just a little insurance against pearling, which longboards are prone to, in steep or late takeoffs. That bit of extra rocker in the very front, and the use of very gradual curves vs. the flat in the middle some of the oldies used to have, is what I assume they mean when they say "modern rocker". Anyway, that's just me, no expert, just a recreational surfer and backyard board builder! You guys know what works best for your conditions, I've never surfed anything like the bore.
I don't know if this is any help at all, but here is a quote on rocker from http://www.brucejones.com/longboar.htm:
Rockers
The "rocker" of a board is simply a line drawing of the side view of the board, usually described as both the top, and bottom rocker of a board. The bottom rocker is the most important functional feature of any design, as it will determine the turning characteristics of a board. All modern surfboards share a similar rocker design - a flatter curve in the middle of the board, with an ever-increasing curve towards the nose and tail. The amount of tail rocker determines how a board will turn - the more curve, the easier the board will be to turn, but will generally make it slower. But this depends on the surfing style of the rider, as most progressive surfers tend to turn to the power spots (steep areas) of the wave for speed, and an insufficient amount of tail rocker would not allow the quick reaction it takes to do this.
Nose rocker describes the amount of curve in the bottom of the board from the middle forward. An insufficient amount will allow the nose to catch, or pearl, while to much can cause wind resistance. In the case of longboards, low nose rockers are generally easier to nose-ride, since there is less resistance to planing from a straighter curve. High nose rockers will cause to much resistance and bogging when attempting to nose ride, but are better suited for hollow, snappy situations, and in high performance longboarding, where nose riding is not as much of a concern.
Sure, vee will slow it down a little bit, but if you have a clean transition I don’t think the effects on top end speed will be that noticable. Besides, the glide and cruising are all about going with the wave, not outrunning it and getting out in front of it so far that you have to constantly cut back to stay near the pocket. That’s why some of the noseriders use concave in the nose - to slow the board down and make it more stable at those lower speeds.
As for epoxy - it’s not just (a little) lighter, it’s also a lot stronger than poly. Fewer VOCs, too. Besides that, I like the idea of going greener via longevity.
I´m sorry for disturbing, but it seems that you friends didn´t like the BIC´s because (perhaps) of two things...
one: maybe they don´t surf very well....
two: maybe the didn´t buy the good BIC of them...
I´m not a seller of the BIC; but I´ve had them and some of the model´s are not bad; the 9´0" is fast and more or less good for the normal surfer; the 9´4" Nat Young his a spectacule (for instance)
it´s classic and I recomend it;
for building one, see these templates that are very convenient for a good design:
http://www.atuacores.com/surfshop/infos.php?lang=1&info=16
9´2" (or 9´4") by 22,5" by 2 7/4" or 3" is a good beginning to make a board with 3,5 inches in the back e 4 inches in the front, Wide in the fronte can be 18 and the back with 14"
it´s a solid design if you have a good rocker and some good rails....
but it´s just an idea;after all not all the BIC´s are bad... see this:
I agree with these features but I thought with these guys who are making their first board and preferably doing it all themselves to keep it as simple as possible. They just want something that goes. I made a board for my daughter this year using a 8’9"Y US Blank. I just cleaned it up, kept all the overall dims, kept the bottom completely flat, no roll, no vee, rounded 50/50 rails all the way round. It seemed too simple but I and several others who tried it were surprised how well it planed and turned. I even tried it on the bore and it flew along. I know several guys who want to make their first board but know nothing about surfboard design so I thought good practical advice would be know what sort of wave you want to ride, how you want to ride it, find the most appropriate blank to suit, just clean it up all by yourself and it should go. Some newbies seem to panic or go blank when you mention roll, vee, rocker and rail bands. I don’t know - i’ve only made 4 boards from scratch so far so its tricky when others ask me. They just have to make it and learn and then make another one and learn some more etc.
As for epoxy, now that I’ve done 1 board, I don’t know if i could go back to PE. These guys will just have to make sure they do it right.
Thanks Luis. I’m not sure why they don’t like the Bic. Maybe its the narrow tail they find twitchy in the white water. I have a 10’ Bic - same as them - which I use on the river bore and its got me 3+ mile rides on it. Its got pretty bashed up from hitting trees and rocks (the bore hammers the hell out of your board) but its terrible to try and repair a Bic once its dinged. With a big fin my Bic becomes a good noserider in the sea. Not sure what the rocker on the 10’ Bic is - I think about N5" T3.5" ? This board is very popular with bore riders in France.
I’m not sure why my friends don’t like Bics. Maybe they just want to make their own boards and I’m definitely not going to try and stop them.
In terms of the main topic here I think you can vastly improve on the glide of a Bic by reducing the rocker.
Homeblown I have discovered have some stock 10' blanks with 3.25" nose & 3.75" tail rocker. Seems like a good place to start.
Thanks for all the suggestions so far. I've got some good ideas for a board of my own.
Homeblown I have discovered have some stock 10' blanks with 3.25" nose & 3.75" tail rocker. Seems like a good place to start.
Thanks for all the suggestions so far. I've got some good ideas for a board of my own.
Homeblown I have discovered have some stock 10' blanks with 3.25" nose & 3.75" tail rocker. Seems like a good place to start.
Thanks for all the suggestions so far. I've got some good ideas for a board of my own.
Bumping into stuff out in the water. I can see how that would happen. That’s all the more reason to start with a lightweight poly blank and glass it heavy using epoxy and an extra layer of cloth. Fewer dings and the ones you do get will be easy to fix.
one thing:
for one good board the tail must have between 3,5 to 4" and the nose will have from 3,5 to 4,5" Of course I´m not talking of all boards..
I made one this year allready and the tail has 4,5" and the nose 4,3" on the rocker; and she´s fast!! for instance I made measurements for one in the market and the tal has 4" an the nose is equal, but the curve is what makes the difference; This one has less curve and make her very fast and with the V tail from 8´to the tail (!!!) she´s beyond fast she turns much more than the BIC 9´0" but the´re bad construction...
The rocker design is the most important (to me...) for the gliding of the board; many shapers make the board very "flat", but they make a lot of rocker in the tail, so she turns very well and rides fast; Others make 2 boards in one, making the one board in the back and the classic nose on the front...
just "ways" of doing it...
that´s what I say: try this 9´4" of BIC manufacturer with a 8,5" fin only and you´ll be surprised as I did; yes... I know very well that there are a lot of better surfboards, but for this one I only payd 439 € ... so imagine, why not?
The BIC dings are very easy to repair: with the pistol glue and a kinfe
For a hole, you get Araldite and moisture with microfiber and sand it...
The blanks have been delivered and look really nice. What is most impressive is that the bottoms have been planed completely smooth flat so all the hard work has already been done for us. Apparently this is standard with Homeblown. I didn't know that. Is this common practise in the US? All the blanks I've bought before have had skin on the bottom. Will probably start work on them after Christmas.
I've often found the flatter the bottom (rail to rail) the more rocker is required to stop the board hanging up. With the roll in the bottom the rocker needs to be less otherwise the board is dead in the water.
For years I believed a flatter bottomed board would be faster paddling and hence catch waves easier and quicker than the old style rolled bottom. After many years of experimenting I've found the opposite to be true. The flat bottom (I've found) needs a higher speed to break the suction in the bottom and get planing, hence their use in steeper faces. I now believe the slightly rolled bottom is quicker to paddle in small/gutless waves ( i.e. Saunton)
I've tried two 10 footers with completely flat bottoms and dropped low rails and they were awful to ride. The first was a Mark Martinson Predator step-deck in Surftech's Tuflite ( felt difficult to control and very hard to catch waves on!) second was a 10ft Circle One that had a flat bottom, dropped rails, and was flat through the mid and tail with an abrupt nose lift in the front. It was fast but tricky to turn and not much fun.
The 10 foot BIC is designed by Bob Pearson of Pearson Arrow in Santa Cruz. He knows what he's doing, has designed CJ Nelson's model on which Nelson has won many contests. Also tougher than anything the guys can build, though I suspect cost comes into this too.
I would say 10ft, with dimensions being N- 17/18" M-24" T-15/16" thickness... as much as possible and if flat bottomed blank will have to dome the deck considerably. Not too big a fin if just for the bore. Would recommend breaking up that flat bottom somehow though. Maybe a small concave or slight roll..a little vee in the tail maybe. I really don't recommend a flat bottom from nose to tail.
The ideal board for you would be a 10,6" or 11ft Mickey Munoz from Surftech. Super stable, super thick, and fast as hell! very forgiving rocker and rails. Easiest board to surf in the world and great for anything mother nature can throw at you. Slight concave with a narrow nose (17") nice and wide (24"). Dropped 60/40 rails, real thick and boxy in the mid, thinner towards nose and tail.
Good luck.