Heavy Glass, Man

I've glassed longboards with 12 oz. E-glass on the bottom and 18 oz. on the deck.  I think this is "glassed heavy".  I've done this for the following reasons:

1.  I want my boards to last awhile.

2.  Access at my local spot involves climbing over boulders.  I don't want to have to do ding repair every time I bonk my board.

3.  I'm not good at babying my stuff.

My friend's shop seems to classify new boards as "glassed heavy" if they have anything over 4 oz on them, especially if they have a deck patch added on.

This got me wondering...am I overdoing it with the glass?

My sanding coat and hot coat are one and the same; I've just been doing fine sanding and buffing it out to save on resin and weight.

 

Any thoughts on what is considered a heavy glass job these days?

 

Also, I'd appreciate any opinions on how to get a durable board without adding glass.  Perhaps S-glass?  Maybe not doing another resin coat is false economy?  (I'm talking strictly polyester resin).

 

Thanks!

From what I understand, multiple layers of glass make a stronger lamination than a single layer of thicker fiber glass.  So you might want to do 2 layers of 6 oz glass over 1 layer 12oz…

I use a 6+6 oz deck and 6 oz bottom on poly foam Hawaiian semi-guns and that was “heavy”. You may have gone overkill, but at least you don’t have to worry about pressure dents and minor dings. 

When you say 12 on the bottom and 18 top, do you really mean double 6 and triple 6?

I’ve never heard of E glass in 12 and 18 oz weights.

Thanks, SammyA....what I meant was 3 x 5.6 on the deck, 2 x 5.6 on the bottom.

[quote="$1"]

I've glassed longboards with 12 oz. E-glass on the bottom and 18 oz. on the deck.  I think this is "glassed heavy".  I've done this for the following reasons:

1.  I want my boards to last awhile.

[/quote]

Good for you. Especially on a longboard. Once opon a time, I had a whole fleet of rental boards, glassed top and bottom with double 10 oz. And you know, a lot of 'em are still around today, well nigh 40 years later.

[quote="$1"]

2.  Access at my local spot involves climbing over boulders.  I don't want to have to do ding repair every time I bonk my board.

[/quote]

 Or when you drop it taking it out of the car, or in the doorframe coming out of the house, etc. Again, too few people think about that. My own boards are glassed lighter...and they're kneeboards.... but I'm near-religious about keeping them in padded board bags when they are not actually in the water. And even then, I go with the heaviest glass the maker offers.

Again, good for you. Thinking ahead isn't something a lot of people do. I was a ding repair guy for a long time, and most of the dings I saw were what I called 'garage dings', what happened when somebody was a little careless. Or the consequences of having a few of those and neglecting them.

[quote="$1"]

3.  I'm not good at babying my stuff.

[/quote]

 Haaaaa - well, like I said, I'm a board bag fanatic. But I suspect I am the exception rather than the rule. The people who think they are good at babying their stuff ...usually ain't.

[quote="$1"]

My friend's shop seems to classify new boards as "glassed heavy" if they have anything over 4 oz on them, especially if they have a deck patch added on.

[/quote]

 Yeah, well..... he's going with what are 'industry standards' these days. Which means boards that get stomped to death in short order, delammed before their time and busted often if it gets any size to it.

[quote="$1"]

This got me wondering...am I overdoing it with the glass?

My sanding coat and hot coat are one and the same; I've just been doing fine sanding and buffing it out to save on resin and weight.

[/quote]

 Okay, I'm the antichrist here, maybe, but I would go with hotcoat/sanding coat and gloss. How come? Well, you might have less chance of getting a pinhole in the one coat, which in turn leads to a wee bit of water leakage, brown foam freckles and what have you. A few ounces, but it adds a little peace of mind at the very least.

[quote="$1"]

Any thoughts on what is considered a heavy glass job these days?

[/quote]

 Like you say, anything beyond 4 oz bottom, 6+4 deck seems to be called heavy. And...that's dumb. Or it's diabolically smart.

[quote="$1"]

Also, I'd appreciate any opinions on how to get a durable board without adding glass.  Perhaps S-glass?  Maybe not doing another resin coat is false economy?  (I'm talking strictly polyester resin).

[/quote]

 Heh- carve it out of a solid wood beam?

Seriously, though, 'durable' is something the mainstream biz has abandoned. Light foam, light glassed boards are what they push, on account of how if a board lasts a long time it's going to be a long time before they sell another one. Dunno if that's an oversight or the 'diabolically smart' thing I mentioned above.

This is why the various molded boards from Asia are selling well, they hold up compared to what else is on the market.

The industry, again, is pushing 'lightweight boards, just like the pros use'...and while a pro can happily use up a board a week, you and I can't. We don't get our boards free. What little performance advantage there may be- and I'd question that, especially in a longboard , well, maybe a few pros can use it, but 99% of us will never notice it except when carrying it or replacing it. And...you gotta stomp a longboard to turn it, light or heavy. It's a freakin' longboard, after all. If you have light glass, you will stomp it to death in short order. heavy glass, well, you'll have it a while.

Are there ways to make a board stronger that don't only use heavier glass? Sure there are, including layers of heavier foam over top of your basic blank, which are sandwiched between a couple layers of glass, vaccum bagged and what have you. There are some weight advantages, yes. Not major weight advantages unless you have the underlying foam extra-extra light, though. Which in turn has it's own set of tradeoffs.

But, hey, you're using a simple shaped foam blank with plain old glass over it. Nothing wrong with that at all. You can do things like certain rail contours that you can't do easily otherwise. You don't need to vaccum bag it, a whole list of other things you don't have to do and a whole list of things that can go wrong that you don't have to worry about. Stick with what you're doing. 

And, we are talking about a longboard here. What's the extra weight, 5-10 lbs? If you had a large lunch before you went surfing, that'd be nearly the same. How about wetsuit weight. Or, in my case, that spare tire I seem to have these days. Getting rid of that would make far more difference than a lousy few pounds of board.

[quote="$1"]   

Thanks!

[/quote]

Keep up the good work, man.

I, for one, would far rather see something like this question than the ones I see of 'I made my ultralight longboard, now why is it delaminating?' or 'Why do I have these stress cracks?' or 'why did my board break?'. Those are questions with a simple answer.....

...and you've found it.

doc...

 

Standard glass job for a mid 60s board. Dbl 10, hotcoat, gloss. Some labels did single 20.

hey i just got done with a retro fish on 1.7 EPS blank i glassed it real heavy ( think to much ) 3x 6 on deck and 1x 4 + 1x6 on bottom and heavy hot coats. board feels soild as but has got a bit heavy than would like, but i surf on a rocky point break and had the same thoughs as you, slippery rocks make good battle scares!!

cheers antony

I have glassed a few boards with 3x 6 oz on top but it is a bit over kill. I do two layers of 6oz on the top & one 6oz on the bottom , or 6&4 oz on both sides for guns.

  If you want a board that is easy to cary to the beach and bomb proof try: 1.9-3lb EPS with bambooskins on it with 4 oz under & 6oz over the boo & some extra 4" 6oz glass tape on the rails using Resin Reasearch 2040 epoxy. The epoxy alone will make it way more shatter proof. You could even throw some graphite in the sanding coat to make it scratch proof.

Enjoy the glide!

[quote="$1"]

[quote="$1"] Once opon a time, I had a whole fleet of rental boards, glassed top and bottom with double 10 oz.

[/quote]

 

Standard glass job for a mid 60s board. Dbl 10, hotcoat, gloss. Some labels did single 20.

[/quote]

Exactly, and it's not all that surprising how many are still around, even with a lot of neglect over the years.

The first real light-glassed board I ever saw was a Weber Ski with single 10 oz top and bottom, The deck wasn't hotcoated, though it may have had a deck patch. It was Nat Young's factory special, which wound up here after a factory team tour of the East Coast.

And it broke, not all that long after, which surprised nobody.

I find myself asking, why is it that a surfboard costs pretty much the same two weeks pay for a kid pumping gas as it did back then...if not more...., how come it doesn't last nearly as long?  I'm not a big fan of retro-everything, but maybe this is a step back that's worthwhile.

doc...

Does performance matter?

Maybe you don’t make subtle moves where a lighter board would respond and a heavy board needs three Herculean pumps to get it moving.

Doesn’t sound like you’re riding beachbreak or any fast developing wave?

I guess if you’re surfing Waikiki or similar you can just haul out your 80 lb. beast and have at it.

I like to turn a few times on a wave or two.

Ir you are careless and like heavy, try roving and mat like we built Radon ab diving boats with.

The boards will last to the next millenium

I like that glass schedule myself.

I’m doing 2x6oz, top and bottom, w/6ox patches, set at 45/45: nose and tail on bottom and top w/a 3rd patch in the middle of the deck.

I have a heavier one, a layer of 4oz, but the patches are 4oz, @ 9’3", and the board rides as loose as I want once it’s over shoulder high w/some steepness… 

 

Memory tells me it wound up in the hands of Ricky Weeks. It had a “Sun Face” as I recall. Summer of '69.

I can remember glassing boards with double ten ounce on both sides. This included the laps. To wet out the laps we would flip the glass up and wet it out with the squeegee. It worked great…and saved resin. It still works great. Kind of a lost technique??? I think I showed it on the Master Glasser Video.

What if I told you guys that you could start with a lightweight core, use that much (or more) fiber, use better fiber than e-glass, but take out a whole lot of resin, and end up with shortboards in the 5 lb area. This thought occured to Kirk and Eric Brasington in 1992. Thousands of boards later, we're still doing it, everyday.

Screw the status quo.

     Howzit my friend Mr. Clean, It's only a lost art for the younger glassers or should I say no art. I remember doing them but it was in the days of taped off glassing that it worked best. I wouldn't do it with free laps but when we were doing 10oz x2 it was almost the only way to make sure the rails were wet out enough.I am so anal about cutting the glass for my free laps that I have had people think they were cut laps. Mark Angell was hasseling me today about setting up shop, but I told him that the cancer thing has made me very leery about glassing on a production scale ever again. Aloha,Kokua

Yea…the flip up wetout was all about cutlaps. I didn’t even know what free lapping was back then.Does anyone know when it started to be an everyday deal? Back in the mid 60’s it seemed like all of the glass was Volan. I am curious about this one. Glad to hear you are doing well Kokua. You have always been one of the most helpful participants around here…

yea  it seemed to be late seventys  silane glass freelaps & the other dodgy bits came into vogue

from there the standard  diminished

i was told volan used chromium a heavy metal that gets into the bloodstream. its now illegal. i heard a rumour that what they sell as volan isnt actually volan and that they use copper or something else

Well, it does use chromium, but it's still legal and in use. It 'attaches tenaciously' to stuff like glass fibers, metals and what have you. The technical name of Volan is METHACRYLATO CHROMIC CHLORIDE in an alcohol-water-acetone solution, as it's shipped to the textile makers. The chromium ( in the +3 oxidation state: Chromium (III) rather than the very toxic Chromium (IV))  in the finished cloth is something on the order of 0.01% by weight of the finished cloth.

It's definitely not good for you, but bonded to the cloth as it is when the likes of use get ahold of it, it's not a problem by itself.

http://www.zaclon.com/pdf/volan_datasheet.pdf and http://www2.hazard.com/msds/f2/bcd/bcdjm.html

The unpleasant things about cloth treated with Volan are more related to the cloth itself: http://www.wescoweld.com/MSDS/Clark_Schwebel%20Inc/Fiber%20Glass%20Fabric_Volan%20Finish.pdf gives more details. Normal precautions taken while sanding will keep both the Volan treatment and the far nastier fibers and resin dust at bay.

hope that's of use

doc...