HIGH TECH - LOW TECH -WHAT THE HECK?!!

General Discussion
1

I’d love to see examples of Swaylockians coming up with both high and low tech solutions to board building.

If there is any predisposition Swaylockians have, it is to attempt to reinvent the wheel.

Well, the wheel rolls best when it is round, doesn’t it? Yet we still see guys that are coming up with new and innovative ways to challenge ones self, sometime to the chagrin of others.

There are newbies, masters, idiots, geniuses, clowns, and shit stirrers on our beloved site, and this is indicative of what makes the world go 'round. So use your imagination, or throw something out there as far fetched as you want, and lets see what sticks to the wall.

Like for instance, back in the day, my fellow shaper at The Surfing Underground, Bob Krause (RIP) got me hyped on making a hollow sailboard.This was around 1983.

BK,  “it will be reeeely lite. The thing will plane up onto the water earlier, we will blow the competition away!”

"Yeah, I thought… but all I was hearing, like a dog looking at you while you say loving things to him, and all he is doing is waiting for your hand to reach for his dog bowl… all I heard was “blow the competition away”.

The next thing I knew, we had timber: beams and heavy marine grade plywood, and matt and roving and now it was real. We were making a form, not unlike the Radon Boats I had worked on as a kid in the very boat yard the Underground was born and now sat upon that same very hallowed ground.

We had the master board, and we had primered it gray so that it showed every damn intricate line that we had achieved 38 MPH and change with.

WE WERE GOING FOR IT!

WE WERE NO LONGER SHAPERS… WE WERE MOLDERS!

WOW!

Well… long story short.

What I learned aobut making hollow boards was

IT SUCKS.

A whole new can of worms came creepy crawling out as we approach Halloween at the time of this writing.

In the end, I learned the best way to make a hollow board is to find the lightest EPS blank you wanna shape then use it to 'FORM THE AIR" into a shape you want. The foam can hold stringers, fin boxes, leashcups, mast tracks, the gamut… into place where hollow aka AIR can’t. The foam allows you to reinforce WHERE YOU WANT and WHERE YOU DON’T. Like say, rails that don’t have seams that wanna split from flex. I now remember a few W.A.V.E. Hollows that I managed to destroy as a team rider… split seams in beachbreak, knee thru the deck getting drilled at El Capitan. Ah, memories.

On and on.

So really, the BEST way to make a hollow board is to use EPS and pretend it isn’t there, because, after all, with the right density, it’s pretty easy to act like it isn’t.

And if you make the board white opaque, well. let people tap on it and claim YOU’RE MAKING HOLLOW BOARDS and just nod your head in the right direction.

 

2

Hey Dead - happy halloween -

 

Yep, I always thought of my EPS wrapped-in-timber boards as a glorified Kookbox, the EPS being a structure like a billion billion little struts, kinda.

 

Whats got me thinking lately is the slabs of foam ridden by those kids in "Stoked and Broke" - so not serious, so much fun, on a crude slab. I want to have a second string to the bow, and ride with that potential to be so F-ing groovy...

 

JD

3

Josh, your boards are anything OTHER than kookboxes!

4

On a certain level, I have to agree with this.  Hollow is not really gonna be lighter, if it were, it would be weaker.  If you have to put the strength into the "shell", to compensate for the "missing" middle (foam blank), the weight will be greater.  Yeah, Hollow Wave surfboards were a bust, I've heard that before.  I was surfing back then, and I never bought into their hype.  But I'm not quick to dismiss an entire branch of boardbuilding because of a poor example from 30 years back.

I do agree, the "best" solution, at present, would be to build a hws over a foam core, as it were - compsand, in other words.  If best means the ratio with the greatest strength to the least weight, then I think compsand - vac bagged veneer over lightweight foam - is gonna be the winner.

Following the lead of the kiteboard manufacturers, this is the direction the industry is turning, and I believe surftech, bic, firewire, sunova, NSP, GSI, and several others, all have this in common.  Even traditional glass over foam has been taken over to a large extent by the corporations. 

High tech composite veneers, secret "proprietary" formulas, industrial computerized manufacturing methods utilizing low-dollar third world labor, etc., is becoming the new "norm" for surfboard manufacturing.

On the other hand my viewpoint is, maybe I will reinvent the wheel.  Just because I have the inclination and time and patience to do so.  Maybe just for the challenge of making rideable boards from other than an environmentally unfriendly petrochemical byproduct.

Looking up the term "reinvent the wheel", we learn that it means "an exercise in futility", "a needless or inefficient effort", 'to waste time doing something that has already been done, when you could be doing something more worthwhile'.  So the term "reinvent the wheel" is basically a put-down.  "Hey everyone - look at the joker trying to reinvent the wheel"!   Hahaha, lets all have a laugh at the fool's expense, cuz we know the corporate overlords have the money, the power, the prestige, they hold the copyrights and patents, They're the Big Band in the parade, and who would be so foolish as to march to a different tune?  After all, the pro surfers feed at their table, sing their praises, win contests using and and endorsing their products.  The pro shapers have their names and logos glassed right onto their boards.

Who wants to be known as the low-tech, low-performance, backyard bozo garage geek, trying to reinvent the wheel?  Well, I guess I do - after all, its fun, its challenging, I am free of corporate pressures, I can let my mind play around with whatever unlikely methods I choose!

Ours is a consumer society, product-oriented.  The process is just a means to an end.  It's a little known secret that once you learn to enjoy the process as much as (or more than) the product, then time and labor constraints become irrelevant. 

To illustrate.  Say that the goal of surfing was to attain a certain level of proficiency, and once achieved, you would get a trophy and then retire, to make room for the new generation.  The quicker you acheive that level, the bigger the trophy.  Would you be in a hurry to achieve that level?  What if surfing was so much fun to you, you just took your time getting to that level, maybe never quite got there.  The really good guys progressed fast, retired, and sat on the beach with their big trophies, laughing at you struggling.  They're the winners, you're the loser.  But inside, you're laughing, because you're having more fun surfing than they are sitting on the beach looking down their nose at you.

Probably not a great illustration, but it shows that sometimes the "loser" is actually having fun, enjoying himself, and not really worried about what the "winners" think.

I dunno if any of this makes sense to anyone beside me but hey - I'm still trying to decide if I should build my next surfboard out of toothpicks or popsicle sticks!

5

[quote="$1"]

''...lets see what sticks to the wall.''

[/quote]

My personal quest was (is) for what sticks to the wave.   Like you, I'm always on the lookout for those little ''tweeks'' that contribute to an  advantage over other boards and riders.

6

What a coinkydink, I just finished the most low tech build ever.

SWIMPAL and I took the mutts down to Nukie Beach (San O Trail 1) for a walk the other day and I found this hunk of ply.

At first I thought it was glassed on the faces but after closer examination I realized it was an old hunk of high quality MDO.
It had obviously been bouncing around the Pacific for some time.

MDO has been used by PNW boatbuilders for decades and this stuff was actually textured on one side so was probably decking.

 

Looks promising and feels very surfy......

 

A couple minutes with a saw to trim the rough edges, a little sanding and a couple coats of oil finish and I present to you,
FLOTSAM
100% Green
Suit Case Sized Paipo
What better use?


It even has a tiny bit of rocker warped into it.

 

 

 

7

I always wondered about inflatable boards. Not mats… but maybe something with a hard bottom and fins with an air filled deck. Then again I posted a deal about solid cork boards many years ago on Swaylocks. A blank made from cork and shaped. No glassing required. Organic. Green. (well tan…it’s actually tree bark).

8

[quote="$1"] Josh, your boards are anything OTHER than kookboxes! [/quote]

You probably know this, but I'll go ahead and say it anyway.  Kookbox is a term surfing (and hollow wood surfboard) pioneer Tom Blake used in reference to his hollow wood paddle / surf boards.  They were a radical departure from the solid redwood boards that were common at the time.  I'm pretty sure Josh's reference was to indicate he viewed his wood veneer over eps boards as a glorified hollow wood surfboard, in agreement with the o.p.'s commentary - not in anyway to indicate they were the board of choice for kooks today LOL!

9

Huck is correct there...I refer to the earliest HWS - timber top, bottom and sides with an internal structure. Assuming he's also correct about Blake initiating the term "Kookbox' for his own boards, the man Blake was highly self-depreciating! Or maybe Kook itself meant something else then.

JD

10

from http://www.surfmuseum.org/html/tom_blake1.html

Surfer Shapers

 

Tom Blake
The inventor of the hollow surfboard, Tom Blake was born in 1902 in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. At age 18, living in Detroit, Michigan, he met the gold medal Olympic swimmer Duke Kahanamoku. Being a swimmer himself, he was inspired by Duke to pursue a swimming career, and moved to Southern California in September 1921.

The first time Tom tried riding waves on a surfboard was also in 1921. He did very badly and waited three years before his next attempt. Tom first went to Hawaii in 1924, becoming the first mainlander to migrate back and forth to surf both Hawaii and California. In Hawaii he surfed with the Kahanamoku brothers at Waikiki.

Tom started building his own surfboards in Santa Monica in 1925. It is said he was the first to surf Malibu Point a year later.

Surfboards at that time were typically made of redwood and were 10 feet or longer, 22-inches wide, 3 to 4 inches thick and weighed over 100 pounds. There were just a handful of surfers active in California during this era.

During Tom’s visit to the Bishop Museum of Honolulu in 1926, he became interested in the ancient surfboards owned by Chief Abner Paki. These surfboards had been neglected and left in poor shape for many years. Tom was able to convince the museum staff of the importance of these boards and was given permission to restore them.

Blake made copies of these ancient boards, drilled holes in them, then covered the surface with plywood to lighten their excessive weight.

Encouraged by the results, in 1929, Tom — while using the original templates — developed hollow surfboards and paddle boards. This new invention was called the cigar box or "the kook box." It was designed much like an airplane wing. These surfboards were half the weight of solid wood boards of the time and popularized the sport of surfing for a wider range of people.

In 1929, Tom Blake applied for his first U.S. patent on a hollow surfboard. In 1934 its construction was perfected. In 1935, he was the first to put a fin on a surfboard, which helped control forward motion riding on waves. Tom had numerous patents over the years not only for surfboards, but for paddleboards and life-saving equipment as well. He was also one the first to make a water camera. Duke Kahanamoku was the father of modern surfing, while Tom Blake was its inventor.

Tom Blake died in Wisconsin on May 5, 1994, at the age of 92.

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I'm not sure, but I think the term "kook box" was a derogatory name from the detractors of his new design, but like Laird selling "Blame Laird" bumper stickers, Tom embraced the term in good humor.  Maybe someone with a bit more knowledge will post up and clarify the origin of the term.

11

Hey Huck, My comment was more on Josh's craftsmanship. I've said before I think he is one of the premier builders on Sway's. His workmanship is top notch and his airbrushes are pretty amazing too. I had an original Pacific Homes Kookbox that I gave to a close friend. It went to a good home.

 

Cleanlines, Talk to Surfoils, he's got the flip to your flop.

12

I luv all the comments thus far.

**What is ironic is I WASN’T EVEN THINKING OF  all the gr8 compsands and hollow stuff that is being done on Sways. **

I just musta had this 1970 to 1979 head space where THIS stuff wasn’t even in my reality.

**THAT is how foreign that type of construction is to me! **

That should be good evidence that I’ll never be in that particular competitive arena.

I guess when I wrote this I was thinking about the Aviso hollow carbon stuff…not airplane wing technology and such.

**Kudos to all of you for stepping up and chiming in… hey, it’s MY SHOUT AT THE PUB! :o
**

13

[quote="$1"]

Kudos to all of you for stepping up and chiming in......... hey, it's MY SHOUT AT THE PUB! :o

[/quote]

Lets split it - if you pay the bar tab today, I'll pay the piper tomorrow!

14

I don't wanna critisize Blakes contributions in any way , but hollows are, and always have been basic well known boat building methods. It started a few million years ago when a guy crossed a river on a fallen tree and slowly grew from there. Members of the "I-was-the -first-club" are just trying to sell more stuff , or fish for more compliments !......the outcome of development through complication, always arrives at simplicity eventually.....

15

…in my opinion, the most simple, visual clean and 90% performance also with fine color possibilities, is the foam/fiber combo we are using from the late 50s

All the other stuff, except Balsa for some specific designs, exist for durability and/or have a mechanized process in this newly industrial times.

 Durability comes only by reinforcing something, but with that comes weight; so the only way, is using super soft BUT still “shapeable” thing, and that is the place for styrofoam. Then, you can put all types of fibers and coats, build the stuff with more than one method, etc

I think that really NEW design will come only if some one use another type of materials or like that or even a really new method; if not, all the designs still are mimics of the PU designs

and for that case is that you do not see tremendous difference in performance regarding PU foam boards and these other builds

16

I dunno.  Look at the alaia - mimic of a polyurethane design?  You could call it a niche or a passing trend, but look how it has inspired a whole new generation of finless experimentation.

I think there's a lot of ferment and experimenting going on, and it can't be predicted where the next performance and design directions will go.  Internet has a lot to do with that, I suspect.

I just think its important to keep an open mind, and encourage all the fringe and unorthodox stuff, and see what comes of it. 

In terms of experimentation, the guy producing boards for a living is always more limited than the guy playing around with design for the fun of it.  Like Kelly Slater said, when he's surfing contests, he's not innovating.  He's copying moves the others are doing, but can only afford to experiment and innovate when he's freesurfing more.

It seems to me that the pro's are always setting the bar for quality and improving design through fine-tuning, while the  "garage geeks" are more involved in pushing the envelope toward the unorthodox and unexpected.  Swaylocks is a pretty cool meeting ground for the two.

17

PU boards are relatively new in the overall scheme of things. They only been around for 50 somethin years. They have allowed easier mass production, and great skills were developed when and since they were introduced, skills that should endure, no matter what material is used to make a surfboard. I think well made pu boards will be around forever.......it's a shame some boardmakers compromise the structural integrity so much ,in the persuite of increasing their bottom line, its so counter-productive in the end .......Reverb , durabilty is never a problem , if the temptation to " cut corners " is avoided , no matter what the material........

18

At what point does a board become to light? Are we chasing lightness, durability, functionality, or our tails?

19

[quote="$1"]

At what point does a board become too light? [/quote]

In a recent article on Dane Reynolds' Indo quiver, they discussed the Dumpster Diver he took.  "Ridiculously light" is the term they used, and then went on to add that the board "never even saw wax or fins on this trip..." Why?  "Feather-light boards don't usually handle large and choppy surf well."

http://balibelly.tv/news/161

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And in a surfline video interview with Garrett McNamara, he talks about three big wave wipeouts.  When he's talking about a tow-in wipeout, he says something to the effect that he was on a 10 lb. board, which doesn't drive as well as his 15 lb. board. 

http://www.surfline.com/surflinetv/greatest-wipeouts/garrett-mcnamara_58799

20

I think that it is inevitable that we will see more and more self propeled boards, a few months ago on sways there were videos of boards made by… (sorry brain fart ).    with small battery powered electric motors in them that allowed you to cruise out to the line up without paddling and to motor into waves at twice your paddling speed and although not cheap at about $2000 also not prohibitivly expensive , the boards were in the 20lb range also not out of the ballpark heavy . I was recently reading about new generations of electronics that are both more powerfull and lighter and more compact than those available to us at the present . Imagin being able to zip out to the outside reefs on your self powered board and dropping in all without ever paddling a stroke you wont need a smelly jet ski you wont need some one to tow you , the technoligy will change from board construction to the development of faster motors , longer battery life , there will be self homing devices so if you lose your board it will return to you , it will change everything as we know it , the question is will you embrace it ? Who doesnt want to go faster… longer… harder  (whoops sorry about that got carried away for a moment, sounds like a Viagra ad)   If it was available Jan 1 2012 at $1000 a pop ,in any shape your heart desired , would you ? OR are YOU stuck in the past ?  In my opinion it IS coming it IS inevitable it IS the future of surfing and it will be great . I want one .