As they say in this country, come for the people and the place but not the money. Just as an afterthought, how is the new law Obama passed going to affect American companies that have their fins and boxes manufactured in China? Fin boxes are part of the surfboard manufacturing process correct? Are fins and boxes made in China destined for installation in American produced surfboards going to go up by 20%?
Hey now, the law was as hypothetical as the website Huie tried. I merely threw it in here to give us a laugh and an option to boycotting…which is quite difficult, if not impossible, particularly when I pick up some glass on core mat RTM fins from True Ames and they are plastic wrapped with “Inspected & Made in China” on them. Still, the thought of everyone changing back to glassed on fins and guys trying to load containers of boards with all glass ons is pretty funny and satisfying to envision.
Larry PM’d me over Easter and I want to discuss with him how solid a fit his system offers with what he has termed “compression” when inserting the optional cant inserts. Honestly, that’s a nice feature to offer as a “deeper” cant (meaning point zero is 90 degrees and gets deeper as you move away from it_The lead around for cutbacks is significantly different for 8 degrees than say 3 degrees, and so on.
4 Way system was onto this variable cant and toe in as well, but my inquiries to what they had to offer never yielded anything other than an email saying so and so will contact you and answer your questions. Well, the difference is Larry from Pro Box and Bryant @ FCS got back to me while 4 Way and Futures never did. NO bashing here, just keeping it real.
Perhaps the guys that didn’t respond only want large accounts. I don’t really know their M.O., but in this economy I would be servicing accounts that pay well regardless of size. My own personal business philosophy is to have good reliable accounts versus the most accounts, to service those accounts well, and in return to be paid promptly when my product sells. If your operation is lean and mean, your bottom line stands to look better.
The reality for my formula to work is to keep a low overhead, produce quality at a fair price and deliver. To keep my production schedule I look for every method possible to keep things streamlined without sacrificing quality.
For instance, I no longer will use the plugs from FCS as I have long held that they are labor intensive, time consuming, and produce a less than desired result. This conclusion isn’t based on lack of experience, as many on Sway’s know, I spent a good decade of sailboard production researching the best ways to reinforce fin boxes in sailboards. The skin to skin connection for strength is irrefutable, but the methodology that the FCS plugs go about achieving it substandard. Now if the entire plug went thru to the deck and was ground to the deck contour and glass plates or the orignal laminates could chemically and mechanically bond to them, they would truly be optimum, but as it stands, the H ring concept isn’t up to par with their simpler Fusion flange system, which from an engneering sense should be inferior in strength.
Larry’s system is well worth me exploring too. The chief consideration for me to look at is that Fusion allows me to rout the shaped blank and go to glass. It is much easier to rout a foam blank than it is to go through the hotcoat. It’s not THAT big a deal, but you have to consider that with the goal of creating the most streamlined system that is also cost efficient, that a router bit will last a helluva lot longer by routing foam and some wood than though fiberglass & resin. Easier on the body too.
So to carry that scenario a bit further, you shape the board, you do a precision rout for your system, then dress the board out with cloth, you apply your boxes with the needed reinforcement material, then roll down your cloth and laminate away. And this can all be down in one fell swoop that demands a minimum of time and effort. End result, a quality product in less time. Add to this under the glass leashcups and there you go.
So you can do it this way or the long way around. If I want to do routing of hotcoats, then I look at Pro Box because it offers different cants AND the system will accept 2 tab FCS fins. If I am staying true to my maximize with the minimum formula, why should I have to carry fins from 3 or 4 different fin companies?
That’s my food for thought. In a perfect world I’d love Pro Box to have the glass under option. Maybe Larry will offer up insight for me on this and blow my mind. As far as the companies that don’t get back to me, that’s their perogative and I have to conclude they are not even in the running. So at this point I can honestly say I like Fusion and I like Larry at Pro Box…I’m not to keen on the guy that ripped Larry’s patents to create “Standard” fin system, esp. when he claims he will only sell to domestic boardbuilders…but that’s another story.
Dude... I am SO with you on the Probox with a pre-glass install option. Ideal.
I'll bet it's just a matter of time.
Why under the glass? All systems that I know of that go under the glass have flanges and no prizes for what supports the flange. All that’s on top of the box is glass as well so shear would be an issue for at least one box I can think of. FCS plugs just makes the deck of tail deck cave in. Six hard spots (rings) that are completely different in density to the surrounding area (the deck of your tail)? Routing through a hot coat is easy as well in my experience.
Just route up the middle for the side boxes and then round the outside. Stringer just shave to thin, and then through each end. Then break the stringer away and clean up. Saves on splinters embedding into the foam.
The downside with 4 Ways from what I have seen of it is the amount of work required to reset the cant and toe in. You would need a centre find ruler and bevel gauge to get that one right? Good side… sounds like the most adjustable fin system I have ever heard of but not FCS compatible.
XM’s. Never installed myself but have heard they are very easy to install and strong with a glass on feel. Not you know who compatible though.
ProBox. Easiest system to install that I have tried out of Futures, Speeedfins and Probox. Really like the adjustability as well and it accepts FCS fins. I also think that the combination of the grub screws and v notch pushes the fin down and against the side of the box instead of just holding the fin in place. Not as adjustable as 4WFS from what I have seen of the 4WFS system though but my favourite!
Lokbox. Never tried.
FCS. No thanks.
The downside with 4 Ways from what I have seen of it is the amount of
work required to reset the cant and toe in. You would need a centre
find ruler and bevel gauge to get that one.
shaper finds toe in leaves mark on box no more prbs.
any you guys having trble geting 4 w s f let me know i allways have them on hand
**best system i have found for thrusters,
**
There is a balance for each of us that works best for our individual circumstances. Sways is largely made up of do it yourself gear heads that get off on making their own boards. There are a few of us that are in the industry, and some contribute, and some lurk. Then there are the supply company guys that look at all this input, debate, and general bantering about and see if they can extract some benefit from it.
I went to the flange knowing that in an optimum engineering sense, a skin to skin connection is the strongest method we found for reinforcing fin boxes in sailboards. I don’t want to repeat myself here, just suffice to say we thoroughly R&D’d it to death. Although the FCS round plugs use this method, I am not convinced that the small ring of reinforcemnt used is substantial enough to equate what we did with sailbd fin boxes. Long story short, compare a Chinook fin box with a post and all one piece mold to an FCS X2 plug. I also want to make the point that the lateral stress a sailboard experiences with the load a sail full of wind transfers down the mast to the fin is far greater than the torque any surfboard experiences…fins in sailboards go thru massive loads compared to surfboards.
While a flange approach appears to be substandard in approach, the dynamics of your typical surfboard fin experiences the majority of stress (load) from the side; perpendicular to the length of the fin. The tab system is designed to allow the fin to break before the box, thereby allowing the fin to be replaced w/o expensive repair to the board. This is the conclusion we ultimately came to after extensive development of sailboard boxes: do you want the fin to break, the box to break, of the whole tail of the board to break?
We developed the “2nd chance tab” which was a longer tab positioned on the front of the box fins with the screw hole in the front, we then used a hacksaw and slightly cut an intentional shear point in the event the fin hit something hard. The worst case scenario with this design was that you would run over something, the fin tab would break, the fin would fly backward while pivoting off the pin in the boxes track and the trailing edge would put a slice in your board as you spun out. Not a bad scenario in comparison to a broken fin box or broken off tail. We then drilled a new hole and could use the same fin.
Flanges offer good resistance to the torque surfboard fins experience. The FCS Fusion was originally designed for boards made with EPS and epoxy. It could be argued that the cloth layup over the FCS cassette is only a mechanical bond, but I am not sure on that aspect as one will find that epoxies adhere to many more materials than polyester resin do.
How strong are they? I have one customer with a retro fish that ran his keel up too close to the beach and snapped his keel fin clean off. This was an FCS RTM fin; there was no damage to the Fusion and he told me he went and bought a new fin and was back in the water. I would say this is a successful incident. Usually you only here the bad news, ths is the GoOD news…they work.
I agree that it isn’t a big deal to rout into hot coats. I do NOT agree that it is just as easy routing into hotcoats as it is foam. As far as stringers splintering and getting embedded into foam while doing the center box, you have to know the method for eliminating this. I will bet my house that my router bit will last loonger than yours installing in foam and some wood versus you installing through hotcaoats and fiberglass.
For those purists that still want glass on fins, here’s a tip: have your fins laminated using warp glass with the majority of the strands running vertically. Better yet, use some uni directional cloth in the layers to be layed up nea the base of the fin and you will have bomob proof fins. That way maybe you can break the tail off instead of the fin…uh, gee does that sound familiar? I hope you get my point. Planned breakage and ease of replaceability is a good thing. Carry some extra fins with you.
As far as who’s fin system to buy, it comes down to distribution and availability. This depends upon where you live and if there is a supply source nearby or if the company is dependable enough to ship an order to you. I’ve decided to use FCS and Pro Box because they responded to my inquiries and want my business. The other guys never followed through. I ordered some Fusion oxes and fins from FCS and they were delivered the next day.
Larry at Pro Box also owns Power Pads and Fiberglass Fins. He is reliable and I use his products. Power Pads are excellent, and I have relied on them for decades. His fins are as good as anyones, and he makes them in U.S.A. .Need I say more? If you live in OZ or somewhere else, look for a great local source that makes great domestic product and patronize them.
In closing, all I want to say is that although we on Sway’s may appreciate the features that Pro Box, 4 Way or some of the others have made available to us with optional toe in & cant angles, the truth is the vast majority of my customers will never use those features. They just want a good quality surfboard at a great price as soon as possible.
“cheaper wages and materials equals lower quality products”------------------Exactly why ALL custom shapers(including those who use CNC Machine-Offs) should work together to get higher prices for our higher quality product. The only way a guy can make any money with current prices is to use CNC’s to save labor. Blanks are a part of the equasion material-wise where a shaper can save money, if he can find a quanity of cheap blanks. It’s one thing to pass on cheaper blank connections to other shapers, but quite a differant thing to drop your price to a buyer on a board just because you used a blank that cost less to make the board. It’s not hard to figure out; An individual longboard blank(buying only one) in the 9’–10’ range purchased at a supply house like Fiberglass Hawaii, FoamEZ or Fiberglass Supply can cost anywhere from $125—$165. Shapers fee; A low $100—$150 or $200. Typical polyester glass job $300—$400–$500. Even if I use the lowball costs that I have just sighted; I still come up with a board cost of $525. Zero profit-------All I get out of the “deal” is my shaping fee! No overhead or profit. No transportation cost for to and from the glasser or shop. Shops are so tight right now that they have stopped buying(too much inventory). Most of them will only consign and they are already stocked up. Some of the people on the site have voiced the idea of pooling together to buy in bulk. Great idea. Form yourself a little consortium, a “huie”. Buy rolls and drums split it up amongst yourselves You are still buying good materials, but you are getting the bulk discount price. Even the direct to the public supply houses like the ones mentioned above will give good discounts on rolls and drums or fives. Go to Surfblanks, US Blanks or other foam suppliers and negociate a quanity discount. They’ll work with you. They want to move those blanks. Rent ----pool together with another builder or shaper to share rent. Maybe all you’re interested in is shaping so bring in a glasser and share extra space with him. I once offered an airbrush painter free rent of a spray room as long as he did my boards first and discounted my board paint jobs. Sometimes it takes a little effort relationship wise to make a shared occupancy or “guild” work, but maybe it’s time for you to grow a little emotionally and business-wise. If you need to cut cost look for some cheaper or smaller space. If you’re not doing this as a business, just as a hobby etc.; Try to “do no harm” to guys that are trying to make a living at it. Establish youself a code of ethics as to what your are willing to do or not do business-wise. None of my comments are directed at anyone who has commented previously. Just observations that are mean’t to be helpful. You gotta do what you gotta do. I’m glad that I have always had a skill/trade other than boardbuilding to fall back. One extremly well known shaper in his fifties recently told me that he wished that he had a “day job” that he could fall back on. For me it has always been a sideline, but during the good years I have been able to live off of it. It’s always worked out because I am a “nightowl” when it comes to shaping and glassing. No offense to anyone and I hope we all grow alittle thru these times, survive and prosper ect. Lowel
If you need to cut cost look for some cheaper or smaller space.
Did that and glad I did. I went from cutting 100 boards a week to 10 a week. It’s down 90% from last year. I have a machine that sits idle.
Got to have ice in your stomach and hold on!
“a machine that sits idle”------------------------You’ve still got the machine! You are one up on me. Like I said “gotta do what you gotta do”. Guys like you and deadshaper will because you guys are survivors and CAN!
My machine is paid for and has a digital scanner. It cuts better than what some large board builder’s machines so It’s kind of overkill. Plus we have last least $12,000 worth of software for design and cad work. I have in house glassing as well. Tight little unit. 2 Shaping bays, CNC room, Sanding room with extreme suction. 8 rack glassing room. Plus board holding area. Small but afordable and much less stress than the big shop that I had. I even have the keys to a large commerial woodshop that I keep all my wood working tools to make wooden blanks and pay no rent. Right now I have the set up. Business is slow but I still have orders. The overhead is so cheap now but not as good as my friend Deadshaper because he has no overhead at all. If the season kicks in we will be in good shape. Well if it doesn’t such is life!
McDing didn’t you inquire about the 10’ x 6" x 4" Balsawood beams I was selling about 3 years ago? Built a few boards with the stuff. Funny how no one wanted any?
Surfding-----Yeah I did. Problem was that my time in Cal. was cut short by the leading edge of the real estate down turn. I wanted at the time to buy some 4x4’s to put balsa rails on a blank and 4" stringer an old piece of foam salvaged from 50’s or 60’s glass mat blank. Everything I was doing at the time work wise fell thru and I had to get back over and go to work immediatly. I am returning to the West Coast permanently June . I’ll look you up. The few times I have been over, I have used a shaping room at Aloha Glass in Westminster.
Just need some demand.
Whenever your in the area come on over an use on of the bays at our place.
Double post correction
I agree.
For guys that truly want to stay in the business because they love it, you need to think about how to reinvent yourself without letting your ego get in the way.
And by saying that, I don’t mean ego is a bad thing… we do a lot of great things because we have an ego. Laird would charge less, a bullfighter would perish on the first pass, architects wouldn’t venture to create challenging structures, art would cease to exist. On and on.
How we got to where we are with mass production formulas, branding like Mondavi, questing to make a board that looks like it is popped out of a machine rather than handcrafted is all very debateable as to their merits…sure, I have my feelings about mass production, market share, being in denial about the impact & consequences of ignoring the law of supply and demand.
If a correction has to take place in our industry to return it to a cottage industry, I am all set for it. Some will laugh, some will curse, some will head to the bathroom as the fear of such a thought envelops them… I welcome it.
Talking about my generation:
Logs falling way to wide back vee bottoms.
Nat and Wayne and Bob, and Keith and Michael and …
Lightning Bolts ruling at Pipeline.
Barry Kanaiapuni’s power turns at Sunset.
Reno Abellira’s speed stance at Laniakea.
Terry Fitz’s brightly colored Hot Buttered Surfboards
Dick and Simon’s early day thrusters
…I don’t need no cnc…won’t have withdrawals…and proud to be able to shape “the old way”.
Apocolypse now?
…I don’t need no cnc…won’t have withdrawals…and proud to be able to shape “the old way”.
Apocolypse now?
Your right you don’t need no CNC nobody does! It’s a waste of money. CNC is for high end technology. Everyone in the surf business can just go back to shaping with a planner, surfoam and draw knife. No more machines should be built to make surfboards. All CAD programs need to be destroyed. Everyone needs to plant a weed garden and grow magic mushrooms.Burn all your surf clothes and make our own wetsuits. Buy white tee-shirts and tie die them. Go back to 501 jeans and Aloha Slippers. Let’s eliminate mortages and car payments and burn all our credit cards. Let’s pull Grubby Clark out of retirement and close down all other blank factories. No more epoxy surfboards and bring back tints and pinlines and cut laps. No more airsprays unless their airbrushed artwork. No more leashes or traction pads. Trash all the SUV’s, SUP’s, Jet Skis and Tow Boards.
I lived on the North Shore during the 1970’s so if destroying my machine will bring back the way it was I’ll be the first one to light the blow torch! Those were the days!
I still go barefoot as much as possible. Your CNC is a great high tech tool, the only problem is she’s related to Terminator. I don’t hav the memories you did living on the North Shore but made a lot of stand by flights for $75 to go visit a friend living in a tree house.
Steamed veggies, miso and rice were our mainstay…great days at Jocko’s, Rocky Point, and Sunset in the winter, Suicides, 3’s and Rice Bowl in the summer. At home it was Little Drakes, Razors, Cojo, Government’s, Jalama, Rincon, HBS, Big Overhead, Seals, Boathouse, Fuller’s, Eds,Talcott, Chinese, Skunks, East Point…and Yellow Bank on less crowded days.
No leashcups becuz there were no leashes…you screw up, you swim!
Drug use was innocent, not a mega multi billion dollar business intentionally concocted to hook you into a financial and spiritual downward spiral.
Everything has grown to be big business, big greed, big big…inflated values…spiritual bankruptcy…the crash is as much a relief and reality check as it is a bummer. Lose the Hummer and read some Siddhartha, The Prophett, or Back to Eden.
If you think I’m speaking a foreign language, you missed it, you really missed it.
…and I’m not saying that to SD…who is my friend and is a positive person extending help generously to anyone that seeks it…he was around during the stoked era when we had a lot of passion and little else…but we were happy. We got by with 13 channels, no IPODs, laptops, and Netflix…this doesn’t mean we don’t enjoy them now…the point is: how much do you really need?
Our big extravagance back then was having a quiver and the time to ride them.
praise the lord yahoo let it be soon.
.................I can think..........I can fast.............and I can waite......................(Sidhartha),,,,,