This matter came up awhile back in a thread rickrickrick asked about using a fast set Epoxy in EPS to install ProBoxes.
The situation came up again recently in a thread posted by stingray called “EPS/Epoxy…Finbox install.” Unfortunately stingray had a meltdown and didn’t see the rickrickrick thread explaining the method to avoid the meltdown in EPS using a fat set Epoxy from happening.
First I like to say, “Thank you stingray for posting and stating you made a mistake in the installation of ProBox to help others from experincing the same thing from happening to them, that’s a TRUE SWAYLOCKIAN BROTHER.” Unfortunately others took this informative thread and turned it into a negative thread with alot of mis-information about ProBox and the proper way of installing a ProBox using Epoxy.
I will start by showing some pics of a board a good friend of mine got where a ProBox fell out cleanly. Later noticing the glasser smoked all three of the boxes in his Tri Fin. So I router out the other 2 ProBoxes and reset them properly and changed the board to a 5 fin in the process. In this process I did not use a Hi Density foam plug, but I did use a fast set Epoxy. If I have to stop for awhile I will return to posts the complete job. Please feel free to ask any questions on the way.
Certainly doesn’t look like a clean cavity and I’m assuming some of the EPS got pulled away when the box fell out? Would this require just a simple reroute or will that hole need to be filled with pour foam or the like?
Certainly doesn’t look like a clean cavity and I’m assuming some of the EPS got pulled away when the box fell out? Would this require just a simple reroute or will that hole need to be filled with pour foam or the like?
You are right deanbo, I guess clean means didn’t take out any of the bottom lamination. The EPS didn’t rip out! When I routered out the other 2 boxes, it was hollow behide the Epoxy wall from burn out of EPS from the heat.
What I am going to do is line the old burned out holes with 22 oz. cloth. This will give me a new wall structure of glass for the new box to bond to.
The pic below I am cutting the first of 2 inlays of 22 oz glass that I am going to install into the burn out area.
This pic below shows the shape of the 22 oz glass inlay before installing it into the board.
This pic below shows the 2 layers of 22 oz glass in the board. Installing the 22 oz glass allows me to keep the look of the board clean and the glass then also acts as a heat barrier while adding more quick set Epoxy to finish the install.
Now in the holes that have the 2 layers of 22 oz. glass, we will mix a small amount of Epoxy to just paste the bottom and sides. IMPORTANT, make sure you have NO pools of Epoxy. Only enough for the glass to soak up, because the pooled area will start to really heat and smoke. Take a stir stick and cut one round side of the stick flat to paste the inside of the router holes with the 22 oz. glass only, not the two new hole with regular glass.
This batch started to generate heat in about 15 minutes. Cool to touch in about a hour in a half, like the pic below.
Now before installing ProBoxes, we must check to see that the fit is clean. How we do that is by using your router and clean route the hole like the pic shown below.
When you are done it should look like the pic below.
If I would have called ProBox-Larry before attempting the repair I would have saved myself lots of problems. I’m a backyard guy that hates to spend money and that got me into trouble. Larry saw the thread and called me!
Thanks for all your help Larry and thanks to all the Sway’s crew for all the interesting input on the other thread.
Stoked…got some good ones today just before sunset. Going dawn patrol in the morning with a friend I met through Swaylock’s.com…
Now a few important things I want to bring to your attention when installing ProBoxes using Epoxy. Epoxy is super aggressive, so the 77 spray glue will not hold well on top of the sanded hotcoat. So I use 1 1/2" single strip heat treated tape like shown in pic below with 3m 77 spray on the jigs for a better bond. Notice I will be sinking these ProBoxes with NO PAPER PEEL AND STICKS, because if Epoxy gets on top of PAPER PEEL and STICK it will soak through and this will create other problems later by gluing the inserts in the box.
For those of you who feel a cover of some sort is needed, then use a 1" heat treated tape and place it down the center of your ProBox cutting around the round corners inside the dam. Press the tape around the round inside corners down good and put putty in the holes as shown below.
The pic below shows a board set up to be installed into a Poly Board using Polyester Resin, NOT EPOXY. These ProBoxes have die cut PAPER PEEL AND STICKS with No Tape on the sanded HOTCOAT bottom of this Poly board.
If I would have called ProBox-Larry before attempting the repair I would have saved myself lots of problems. I’m a backyard guy that hates to spend money and that got me into trouble. Larry saw the thread and called me!
Thanks for all your help Larry and thanks to all the Sway’s crew for all the interesting input on the other thread.
Stoked…got some good ones today just before sunset. Going dawn patrol in the morning with a friend I met through Swaylock’s.com…
Stingray
Thanks for posting your link stingray, I didn’t know how to do that. Great to hear you got some water time on a great Sunset like today. Mahalo,Larry
Alright we are ready to install ProBoxes. Take your 22 oz glass and pull a strand out about 18" long. Wrap the glass strand around the ProBox and hold it in the middle like pic below. Pour in a 1/4" of a oz of Epoxy then install the ProBox in the hole. Make sure to PUSH the ProBox all the way in the jig until it rests on the bottom of the board.
Then using the stir stick with the flat edge push down any glass that is close to the surface of the hole, this will help in having a clean install at the end.
Now we have all the boxes installed with 1/4 of a oz of Epoxy in each hole to set the ProBoxes, like the pic below.
In 1 1/2 hours I added another 1/4 of a oz. of Epoxy to each hole again. This is all I got to, will do 1/4 of a oz 2 more times in new routered rear holes and maybe 4 more time of the same amount in the burned out holes. Will post the finished board in a couple of days.
I think the reason there are meltdowns is because people are using the wrong epoxy (quick lam epoxy) for their fin box sets. Ive been using a slow setting epoxy putty by Fasco for years. Its slow reacting so it doesnt get hot…Ive never had a meltdown. In a fast paced production environ it may not be so good.
Using putty is different than low visc resin. The best part is not having to use cloth in the resin because the stuff I use is not brittle like many lam resins and has good structural properties. Brittle resin in fin sets is not my cup of tea. Also you cant pour it in, I use tongue depressors to apply in the hole. So its a little more work.
With epoxy putty, I just route the hole and install with milled fiber mixed in the putty. The tricky part is getting the right amount in there so that the box goes in tight without a big oozing mess off the top. Like you do, taping works. I apply putty to the hole and the box before install. I also use cheap disposable plastic syringes with thin luer nozzles (0.020" dia) to inject putty into any voids or air bubbles in the gap between the box and the board. I got my syringes at a veterinarian supply website…they are super handy.
Additionally, the fasco epoxy putty I use has all kinds of uses around the shop and house. I even use it to bond metal parts. The adhesive properties are hard to beat…way better than lam resin, no problem bonding to your boxes. I buy this epoxy at my local marine/automotive supplier…they have a sister company and website called uscomposites.com but I couldnt find the fasco epoxy listed there. Did find this
this is a very detailed pictorial and description of how to install your boxes in EPS correctly. Does your current directions go into this detail how to do it right? I am looking at the directions of the original boxes from years ago, received the obsolete router bit and in my opinion bad directions. I consulted the original owner for advice and clarification regarding EPS thinking no testing was done on EPS. I was assured they were tested and worked fine on eps. After 3 bring backs on ripped out boxes and recognizing the problem, I made modifications to remedy the situation and essentially stopped routinely using PB.
My question is this. Does your company have any obligation to me for the obviously wrong install directions for EPS, too big of router bit and the 20 plus sets of old boxes that I still have. Can I use the directions you post with my old bit and boxes with success??
Thanks for the clear, precise and easy to follow directions you posted.
craftee, Thanks for your post! Very craftee procedure, LOL. I agree with alot of your install process, I am partial to glass over putty. But I am stoked to see the creative measures you guys go thru to install ProBoxes and help others and us at ProBox. Your ideas and support are much appreciated my friend.
Just to add to this thread, I don’t use a fast set Epoxy to install ProBoxes. But it seems like the problems occur when people use fast set Epoxy. I am with craftee and use a slower set Epoxy. The reason for this procedure showing fast set Epoxy is to help those who have / or what to use fast set Epoxy. In this case stingray and before stingray, a thread by rickrickrick asking the same thing “Fast set Epoxy.”
