How to open a surf shop or why not to. Series With Doc.

General Discussion
21

Oh, hell, man, I’m digging on what you’re writing. Lots of it is ‘damn, never thought about it that way’. Which is all to the good, every way you look at a problem is maybe another solution -

Some stuff:

Not only will Quikabong or BillSilver sell to your competitor and freeze you out and leave ya with zero stock as the season starts and a scramble to get anything on your hangars for the season…heee, you’ll love this…just before you do your back to school sales for the juvenile delinquents who actually wear the stuff, guess what. Quikabong Corporate dumps all their leftover stock for the season with one of the big chains, like Kmart. Fat discount.

Dood McDude may dig your shop, but his mother, Mrs. Gronsky ( she divorced McDude senior years ago and is now on husband #3 ) is into Kmart, blue light specials and all. Or TJ Maax, or whoever. If Junior wants Quikabong, he’ll get it, but not from you.

Congratulations, you are the happy owner of four grand or more worth of Quikabong crappe’ that Kmart is selling for less than you paid for it.

Same with big name boards, by the way. Maybe worse.

Your better move is to get in with the local Parks and Rec people, do a few clinics or something, so Mrs. Gronsky thinks you are good guys and she doesn’t object to Junior buying stuff that has your name on it. But not contests. You will get one happy winner and ten pissed kids for every heat. Bag all contests.

You can do a t-shirt with your name and logo on it, on a Beefy T or Anvil heavy cotton T for less than you pay for the Quikabong baled goods tees that will fall apart after they have been washed 3 times. And you keep your logo constant, no 2005 special editions unless they are really limited editions, and you carry your stock over year after year, no closeout sales.

And your name and logo are going all over. You could put it on a cheap 50/50 T, but hey, think of that extra buck a shirt as advertising and good will. They get something with your name on it, it better be good quality.

Find a good screener, buy your Ts through them, make your order waaaay in advance so that there are no last minute panics. Screeners will give you great terms for off-season, no-rush orders. I know, I do a little rep work for one. You will get a far better color selection, your screens will be done better, you can set it up for a gross at the beginning of the season and another later and get a good price on the order as a whole, etc. The lowball price is low for a reason, again, spend money wisely, but spend more for much better quality.

On the other hand, try putting in an order for a gross of t-shirts, sent in on June 15th for July 4th weekend delivery and they will laugh in your face. Or showing up with your Crapwear bargain t’s and want them printed when half will self-destruct in the screening process and then bitching when they do.

Get good vendors and treat them like gold. Because they are. Good vendors will help you, steer you right. 'Cos maybe you know everything there is to know about surfboards, but you know jack about clothing. Or vice versa.

‘Established’ is a lot. Discount all you want, but if you look dicey, if it looks like you may not be there next year to honor your implied warranties and promises, lots of people will look and wait for the going out of business sale. Be there like you plan on being there forever. Be upbeat, be positive, even if your books look like the economy during the Hoover Administration. Look established from the get go, like you are there for the long run.

So will I, by the way,be there for the going out of business sale - great buys on inventory I might need when a bright eyed dreamer goes under. Let some discounter have the clothes, those I don’t need.

The surf companies are whores, and the customers are indeed sheep. However…

There are whores who will lure you into an alley and roll ya and those who will give you something for your money and maybe a smile. Guess who gets repeat business.

As for the sheep- well, they need a shepherd. No rubber boot jokes, ok? The shepherd with a hundred sheep is the guy who will spend the time to find the one lost sheep and keep the wolves from it. The guy who doesn’t has three sheep in his flock. Think about it. Take care of your sheep, don’t shear 'em bloody, let 'em graze on decent fields and they ( and you) will thrive.

Your competition, who hired Dood McDude to watch the store…well, ol Dood is very impressed with himself, he hasn’t got time for beginners, he blows 'em off and shoots the breeze with his buds who hang out at the place. He may be the hottest kid on the coast, but he’s selling his employers down the river.

Cos you are downstream. Beginners, rookies, they come in, ok, educate 'em gently. Make them feel like they are not complete idiots. They are not, by the way. Think about it, before you became Mister Surf Shop Guy, you were a newbie too, starry eyed and dumb as a rock. Still are dumb as a rock, if you’re in the surf biz now. Somebody took the time with you and now its your turn. Do the right thing.

That, in fact, is a good rule in general. Do the Right Thing. Your customers are not the enemy. If they are not buying from ya, it’s not their fault, it’s yours, so fix it fer cryin’ out loud. Like the man said-

“Integrity is rare in the surf business and you will stand out”

So, stand out.

22

Ahmmm- lets see

Infinity in Dana Point and Wave Riding Vehicles in Outer Banks: manufacturers of boards who branched out some, went bigger. It can be a win if you’re smart about it. Both have been around a while and both have credibility from good ( if, in the case of the original Bob White WRVs, somewhat iconoclastic) boards back when. And if you had it then, means what you need to do is keep on keepin’ on without screwing up. The next step up is the Robert August mega-whatsit empire.

Longboard House in FL and I’ll throw in Longboard Grotto out on the other coast - specialists, niche merchants. They have done well, but if you bet your living on a niche it better be a good niche and you better be lucky. If the longboard thing had died after a couple years, you would never have heard of them.Remember that your taste, your niche, may or may not be enough to go on. Never confuse what you like with what sells. For instance, I’m a kneelo, but I’d be out of my mind to have a kneeboard-only shop. I’d be better off setting fire to my money.

I am not familiar with the Green Room, but lets toss in Frog House instead. I won’t say ‘age and treachery will always defeat youth and skill’, more like if you stick with the business, come up right and pay attention, you can survive, though maybe not get rich.

Ron Jons- look, I have nothing against Ron Jons. Quantity has a quality all its own. I suspect they were heading south late one fall and saw the South of the Border billboards and realised that if ya go big and make yourself a name and a destination, you can make it in good times and bad. In a lot of ways they are industry pioneers and innovators. Might not be on the high end qualitatively , but definitely they lead the way on making bucks. They are not afraid to take a shot at something and take their lumps.

You hear a lot of whining about Ron Jons, but you don’t hear them whining. They know who their customer base is, and it’s everybody. They have tailored their business to that, not to the self-anointed hard core. Which is not dumb, by any means.

that help any?

doc…

23

Doc,

What about the clothing market for the over 35’s. Do they still wear surf clothes? My wife buys all my clothes - she knows to get me comfortable stuff for the beach. I only go into surfshops to get wax or wetsuits or look at boards. As for the clothes, when I see the identically dressed teenagers hanging around, I always think to myself “Man that David Carson has a lot to answer for”, Most of the current stuff looks ridiculous on teenagers, let alone on someone my age. What’s your take on clothes for the over 35’s

24

Even better than a shop is a small showroom for boards and related goods and Ebay plus your own site. Ebay for advertisment to millions. Linked to your own site and a showroom for you local customers. If you don’t get your own boardshorts…go for birdwells and go fairly deep. They have been around awhile and you can be sure of what your getting. Your own tees and those of your board maker, unless thats you, then specialize the surfboard tee.

Never under any conditions get into surf fashion. It’s way to iffy and has zip to do with our sport. It has never been anything but something made by vampire clothing companies to feed off of dumb kids looking for an identity they themselves do not have. I will let you guess who the two worst are. I would not even carry Hawaiian print shirts.

Employees: Hire non surfers to watch counter when you are gone. Those with good grades work best. Especially ones that want the job because they need money, not because they dream about hanging in a surf shop. What many shops will call kuks, will be your best employees. Good surfers are the worst and young surfers in general. Your wife or kid is the best of all if they are into it.

Don’t waste your money on surfer or surfing magazines or any other magazine. They will look at them at your store and buy them from Barnes and Nobel. Do not carry girls clothing unless you are a girl and even then it’s not recommended. Girls are way smarter than guys. They will buy a name brand tee and then go to wet seal or old navy for fashion pieces or shop sales racks for Roxy. Girls taste changes like the tides. Girls are great surfboard customers if you treat them right. They will be more loyal than guys. Remember, the big shop down the street will have a hot surfer dude behind the counter who will hit on them or ignore them. A little time and patience will pay in this area.

25

Surf clothes for the over 35 market? Solo pretty much put it there - Birdwells, t-shirts, especially long sleeve t-shirts, maybe a sweatshirt or better yet fleece pullover with the shop logo, and that is pretty much it. Least, for what a surf shop is gonna sell to ‘em. Do Not go with lowball quality here. Heavy fleece and heavy sweatshirts will keep on selling forever. Crappe’ won’t. And when the wife or kid scores the well-loved heavy hooded SS, they come back for more. It’s a beautiful thing. Been the backbone of our clothing business for 20+ years. Our Xmas clothing biz is pretty good too - all mail order.

Past 35 ( an age which is just a distant memory for me ) people tend to buy Patagonia shorts or carhartts or something like that, cos the clam-digger ‘are these really shorts’ shorts look asinine on everybody. Or levis, or god help us dockers, they won’t be buying that from a surf shop.

dark colors are good, they show the increasing tum less.

Oh, and hats! Definitely a good-quality, upper-end Adams or equivalent billed fabric cap with your logo on it. Alas, they don’t seem to make a long-billed cap any more, which sold like a bandit. If you have a good quality hat and a non-idiotic logo you won’t be able to keep 'em on the shelves.

that help any?

doc…

26

SNAAAARSHHHHHH - ( the sound of coffee through my nose, over keyboard and screen ) - couldn’t be more right. Ohhh, maan, couldn’t be more right at all.

Described the clothing I carry exactly. And it sells, through thick and thin. Birdwells are simply the best. You can’t carry all their colors and sizes and patterns, but you sure can get deep in a couple of their styles and colors. And, a real rarity in this biz, they will never, ever piss on your leg and tell you it’s raining. Straight-up company.

Surf fashion:

Look, I am gonna be 51 this summer. The shop owner will be 64. While you couldn’t tell it by how we act sometimes, that does not equate to being 17 for the third time and 16 for the 4th time respectively. So, how in the blazes are we gonna guess in the late fall or early spring what some 14-year-old sheep kid is gonna want to wear to look like all his sheep buddies on the first day of the following August?

We can’t. It’s a loser from the get go. The 2 for 1 sales a lot of shops have around early Fall? That is to dump the surf clothes that didn’t sell and at least get something for them. You wanna ride something down , trailing smoke and fire to the crash, by all means get into surf fashion.

We still run across surf fashion leftovers from the late 60s and early 70s in the warehouse. We keep them, as reminders of our own idiocy and reminders to Never Do That Again.

Hawaiian print shirts- they are comfortable, great in hot weather, kinda neat to wear. I bought mine from Old Navy when they were getting out of 'em and selling the things dirt cheap, wouldn’t carry 'em on a bet. Though I prolly have a few smalls in the warehouse…

Swiping something from the upcoming waterrat web services site, a website and hosting company specialising in surf-related and art-related websites, low prices and fast delivery - ( he wrote, in full merchandising/pimping mode … and setting up eBay stores is one of our specialties) .

Quote:

The great thing about Amazon was they discovered there were things that were ideal for net sales. Books, for instance. Nobody has to try those on.Stuff you can see and feel in a local shop- sell those cheaper, with good shipping.

You might have trouble selling boards over the net. I haven’t tried it. Lots seem to be trying it, though. T-shirts and such, though, or adjustable caps, wax, stuff that people know about already, you can and should do.

If you are not getting ripped off by whoever is putting together your site, or loading it with Flash and equivalent hype-driven nonsense that gets in the way of your sales and your message, it is amazingly cheap to do. Less than running small ads in the local fishwrapper tabloid-format paper for a year. Like I mentioned earlier, that is one of the businesses I am in. Which may also give you an idea of how much money there isn’t in the surf shop biz.

Unless you can offer truly lower prices than anybody else, stay to your own, proprietary lines for web sales. Your logo stuff. 'Cos otherwise the company you buy from will cut you off at the knees in several ways. Like not selling to you any more, or going online themselves and undercutting you.

Oh, when you order from XYZ Surf Co - order relatively small. Low quantities. You pay more, but you are stuck with little or nothing if it doesn’t move. 2nd day air freight and a re-order is cheaper than sitting on , say, a gross of 6’ leashes that didn’t sell. On XYZ Surf Co’s easy credit terms which border on highway robbery.

Wax is a pain. Freight charges will kill ya. If there is another shop that you get along with, order wax with them, split an order, save on shipment. The good thing about wax is it’s a great ‘gimme’ - toss a free bar of wax to a fair customer who is headed out the door and for 50 cents you have made a friend for life and an enthusiastic customer who will send all his friends to ya.

Magazines- no way do ya want 'em. Even the freebies - they are chock full of your competition’s ads. Think about it.

Girls are among your most loyal customers…if you treat them like your favorite smart niece. Be kindly, be helpful, don’t even come close to condescending. Give more respect and less BS than you would with a ‘young man’ of that age. Don’t even THINK about hitting on them. Hit on their mothers instead. Better odds there anyhow.

If you think you are useless at picking what clothing will sell to guys that age, well, imagine how far off-base you will be with chicks clothes. Ah huh. Let the bigger outfits go down with that ship.

I sell women’s suits, yes. Women’s lifeguard suits. Styles/models/colors as mandated by the town or state or whoever is paying them. My main problem is keeping sizes in stock, and it is still the biggest pain in my whole clothing line. There is no womens swimsuit that everybody likes or looks good in. It’s a matter of finding one they don’t hate all that much that won’t fall apart in 27 1/2 minutes of actual use. Which is difficult - you think surf fashion items are badly made? Womens stuff is total crappe’. Stay clear.

Let me add something about employees. Find some who know what they know…and know what they don’t know. What their limits are, when to do the deal and when to stall until you get back. Very important.

Family can be good employees, except that when you have to treat them like an employee who screwed up rather than family - you will get misery from all sides for a while. Tradeoff is they understand what you do to make a buck and they may have a little sympathy for you after a bad day or a bad week.

While it wasn’t in the surf biz, still, The Old Man always treated me like the dumbest deckhand he ever saw during working hours and then after hours he and I would sit with a few beers and he’d sketch on bar napkins and I learned the businesses we were in inside and out. But that’s uncommon, I wouldn’t expect I could get away with that now.

Ask questions - please ask questions. Gets us going and thinking…

doc…

27

Thought Doc and I could give this thread life again.

Carrying on with creating your own shop creativity. Doc, pretty much nailed it. One of the absolute coolest things about the shop end of surfing is some of the great names and logos that have been created and become part of the history. A surf shop first and foremost is a destination. Business majors will go on about the power of the brand or branding 101, but if you don’t surf and if you surf but have no soul, surfers will know it and avoid it like the plague. What is soul? It can have many definitions, but more than anything else, I think it is simplicity. A shop that deals with the sport of surfing, run by someone who loves surfing and the host of characters it produces. The only right way to brand a surf shop is by being a authentic surf shop.

You have many micro department stores and larger that call themeselves surf shops and claim to have the most surfboards by the most name brands and all the clothing lines. These shops make money and many of them stay around, but few of them are memorable.

If you are to compete with larger stores, you will have to be different, unique and consistent.

Don’t take advice from surf Reps, don’t make decisions from surf magazines, and don’t be afraid of the big shop up the street. Keep your rent low and don’t think you have to have a prime location. Frankly, I think a more off location works best for shops many times.

Listen to this if you hear nothing else: If they give you rent for free, stay clear of malls and strip centers. Trust me.

28
Quote:

Thought Doc and I could give this thread life again.

As it’s Fall in the northern hemisphere, and magic hat (www.magichat.net ) is making Jinx again, seems like a good idea.

‘Branding’ is meaningless, these days. Customers know what is genuine and what is made in ( asian republic of your choice) or they are dumb enough - or smart enough- to be getting it ( insert surf clothes name here) from a remainder company like TJ Maxx.

Soul…is in the eye of the beholder. The real deal has no glitz, the shop is kinda scruffy, they have been there a while. The ‘brand’ stuff they have is their own. Their, admittedly cheezy, logo on stuff.

Reps - I am sure they mean well, but lets not forget that they bought into the idea that mainstream, highly hyped surf biz is the real deal. Or else they wouldn’t be reps. They mean well, but ya gotta see past that.

Surf magazines - look, what is 75% or more of those magazines? Right, ads. So who do the mags hype, suck up to, etc? Right again.

Strip malls and most especially malls - your credibility just died. You will pick up the dweebs who want to buy a shirt or a badly made pair of past-the-ankle ‘surf shorts’ , and there is money in that, but who do you want to be?

doc…

29

OK, here’s a real world scenario that maybe you can shed some light on for me. You’re a local shaper with a loyal following and many repeat customers. You’ve managed to penetrate some of the local Surf Shops varying in size from the “Interstate Billboard campaign size”, to the “been here for 20 years not going anywhere” to the “Brand new, core, mostly hardgoods, all local shapers boards”. Some paid cash up front, some are consignment, some are net 30, etc. with varying results. Some move boards, some don’t but it’s mainly for credibility of being in the shops, although with 30,000+ boards its not really a factor.

Should you be trying to push softgoods in these shops along with the boards, branded hats, shirts, rashgaurds, etc. to fatten your board margin? As a shop owner would you carry softgoods from the shapers you carry?

Or as the shaper are you shooting yourself in the foot by having your dealers listed on your website and sending potential customers there and possibly having the shops pull the old bait-and-switch to boards with fatter margins?

Would you be better off just having them fill out the online order form and sealing the deal right there with a credit card deposit.

As a shop owner should you be deep in your own branded t’s, hoodies, hats, rashguards, etc. over the latest Reps gear?

If as you say “‘Branding’ is meaningless” and all you had was blank white boards with no lams, how would the customer know which boards were the chinese imports and which were handshaped locally by a 30K+ board craftsman. That’s the importance of the brand. The quality and craftsmanship which it stands for. That’s where the importance of “branding” comes in, although you need to have a solid reputation in the first place for it to matter much. That’s why it’s so hard to break into a market. You’ve got to build your brand before it means anything.

Got some more questions and comments but this post is already way to verbose so I’ll leave it at that. Interesting topic.

30
Quote:

OK, here’s a real world scenario that maybe you can shed some light on for me. You’re a local shaper with a loyal following and many repeat customers. You’ve managed to penetrate some of the local Surf Shops varying in size from the “Interstate Billboard campaign size”, to the “been here for 20 years not going anywhere” to the “Brand new, core, mostly hardgoods, all local shapers boards”. Some paid cash up front, some are consignment, some are net 30, etc. with varying results. Some move boards, some don’t but it’s mainly for credibility of being in the shops, although with 30,000+ boards its not really a factor.

All right, first, lets make a distinction here between a ‘shaper’ who maybe makes a few hundred boards a year and a ‘surf company’ who makes thousands and sells them and all sorts of other stuff.

And your three types of shops:

“Interstate Billboard campaign size”, who tend to be weasels, but they are gonna be around until they implode. And they do implode.

“been here for 20 years not going anywhere” who will be around as long as they want to be, though not getting rich at it. They buy smart.

“Brand new, core, mostly hardgoods, all local shapers boards” who will be around for about as long as a mayfly unless they transition to the ‘been here 20 years’ type.

Now, if you are selling boards, the first type will take 'em, prolly at 30 days, the second type will take 'em on any one of several sets of terms, and as for the self-proclaimed ‘core’ types, you better get cash from them.

Should the little guy shaper (as opposed to a larger surf company) be trying to sell softgoods? Hell yes, that’s where the money is. Should I, as ‘been there forever’ surf shop owner, carry them with somebody else’s logo? Not unless I am getting one hell of a deal on 'em, as good or better than I can get 'em elsewhere, maybe with my name on 'em and of at least equal quality.

Plus, couple other questions- is the small shaper backdooring me, selling his boards and other stuff out of his factory at wholesale? If he is, his stuff is out of my shop in a heartbeat. That’s stabbing me in the back, and all the little shapers do it.

Should the small shaper have dealers/shops listed on the website? Yeah, probably. Surfboards are like shoes- if ya can’t handle 'em, feel 'em, they are kinda hard to sell. More profit margin on another board? Well, hey, that’s not my problem, that’s yours. Bear in mind that I am not in the surf biz to make you money, I am in the biz to make me money. If your website has boards cheaper than I can retail 'em for ( see ‘backdooring’ above) , well, you’re gone, I don’t need ya.

Should I be heavy into my own stuff? Hell yes again. Why? Several reasons -

I have more control over quality. You, as Smallsurf Company, you may cheeze out on the quality of your hoodies or rashguards on the next shipment, to jack up your margin and charge me the same. I am stuck with crap with Smallsurf Co printed on it that I have to dump at cost or less.

I don’t need to do your advertising for you. Good, bad or indifferent, why should I be selling stuff under your name when I can have it there under my name, advertising for me? Another thing, if I bag print ads and radio ads and such, I can maybe spend another buck per item, rashguards for instance, and that lasts twice as long and gives me a good reputation. And that’s under my control, as it should be.

The Rep-brand Big Name Surf Clothes-will be selling in Kmart too, for less than I pay, wholesale. Why do I want them at all?

Lastly, least for the moment, remember above, I am not in the surf biz to make you money, I am in the biz to make me money . Why do I want to pay your profit margin plus your costs when I can be buying the same stuff for the same costs as you do? That is, lets say I can either buy rashguards for ten bucks each and have my name put on 'em for another buck from the same jobbers/distributors you deal with. Or, I can buy them from you for fifteen with your name on 'em. They sell for $19.95 either way. This is not a tough choice…

Quote:

If as you say “‘Branding’ is meaningless” and all you had was blank white boards with no lams, how would the customer know which boards were the chinese imports and which were handshaped locally by a 30K+ board craftsman. That’s the importance of the brand. The quality and craftsmanship which it stands for. That’s where the importance of “branding” comes in, although you need to have a solid reputation in the first place for it to matter much. That’s why it’s so hard to break into a market. You’ve got to build your brand before it means anything.

Awright, there’s a flaw or two in that argument -

The brand is meaningless- if the differences between the chinese-made board and the locally made board are not readily apparent without any sticker, lam or anything else. If and only if the quality is much better does the brand make any difference whatsoever.

If somebody has shaped…or at least sold…30K boards, like you said, branding ceased to be an issue a long time ago. In fact, Mister 30K Shaper is probably sitting back in Costa Rica while boards with his name on 'em are coming out of the factory machine roughed and then finished by $15/hour apprentice-level people. You mention the quality the brand ‘stands for’ …but that’s old news. What kind of quality is coming out the door now? 'Cos that’s what I have to sell, every day.

It is hard to break into the market, yes. And lots don’t make it. As a guy running a surf shop, hey, unless you are married to my daughter or something, why should I subsidise your learning curve, take grief from my customers it took me years and years to get for substandard boards and make diddly-squat per board? And every customer I lose, they never, ever come back. I am in business for me, not for some shaper starting out. By the way, lots of surf shops go belly up too - they made wrong decisions, carried stuff that didn’t sell or pissed off too many customers.

If I want a mediocre or worse surfboard to carry ( and bear in mind that I make less profit on boards than on anything else in my whole line) then there’s a whole container load of boards on a ship right now, coming over from China. And they cost a helluva lot less, I can make money on them, unlike standard surfboards.

If, and that ‘if’ is only in there for giggles on account of you are doing it, you are selling your boards via your website, type-in-the-specs-and-credit-card-number, you are selling your boards around me. Instead of the red 7’8" I have in stock, Dimbo D. Boardbuyer wants a green 7’9". I am stuck with the red 7’8" 'cos he bought it in green from you. That’s not doing me any favors. I have to sell your boards as loss leaders to get them out the door at all.

The guy who is buying off the rack - well, hey, he is shopping price and prolly hasn’t got a lot of sophistication with regard to shape and so forth. He is gonna buy something today, price is his first consideration and selling him your $600 board vs a $300 Chinese board, whaddya think he’s going to do?

Now - a possibility: Set your ordering so it’s done through surf shops only. Sam Surfboard Buyer comes in, looks at a display item or two and decides he wants a Your Brand board. But not the display model, a custom. He gets some advice from me at the shop, we punch in the order and when it is delivered to my shop he pays for it ( same as he would ordering direct from you ) and I get a percentage. You make less, but I have an incentive to have your stuff in my shop at all. Bear in mind that I don’t have many reasons to do that just now.

This is pretty much the same sort of deal that existed a while ago, when it was either garage shapers, off the rack or custom through a surf shop. The surf shop has to make money or why bother with your boards?

Okay, that’s a start.

Bear in mind, always, that while for the shaper and surfboard company it’s about making money to stay afloat, the surf shop doesn’t have you as their number one priority. You have to give them good, solid reasons for keeping you in their shops. 'Cos we have to make money and stay in business and avoid starvation, that sort of thing. You can say all you want about soul, about craftsmanship, but I have to try to sell your boards against lots of competition, maybe even including you via website and backdoor. You need us, but as the industry stands right now, we don’t need you.

doc… what, me, cynical???..

31

If your a shop owner and can get a master shaper who will not sell to your competition in your board racks get one and support him. All other boards should be labels you own. When the shaper or your label boards decides he is too big for your shop which helped put him on the map and leaves for other shops or opens up on his own down the street, you still have your own logo. Your master shaper if he is good will not make you look bad, because his product will speak for itself. However, human nature being how it is, these relationships can go south and then your stuck with customers still wanting his boards. Doc will tell you used boards sell better and make you more money unless your really good at selling alot of new ones.

If your a shaper starting out and really want to see if you boards and logo can hang, start your own shop with your own logo. Keep in mind, if you have not been at it awhile, few are going to take you serious. You will be stuck giving boards aways for small or no profit to pukey young surfers who want to brag about being sponored, but talk behind your back anyway. Better to learn your craft for awhile, before trying to be in shops at all.

Start your own newsletter or even small paper. Get it up and going and sell ads to pay for it. People believe almost anything they read, so if your giving good advice, free from hype, you can help to turn the tide in your own area.

32

Oh yeah - lets not forget sponsoring… or to be more exact, let’s forget sponsoring entirely.

Say you sponsored Dood McDude. He’s 17, does a few flashy moves, has the personality of a vaccum cleaner. He wins a few local contests…

Okay, what happened?

Dood is a total dirtbag in the water, dropin king and no manners. He just ticked off half the 30+ guys in the water.

They will never, ever cross your threshold. And they are the ones with the money.

Dood won a contest - big whoopie - but 29 other guys didn’t win. Contests have one winner and lots of guys who lost and don’t like it.

They are not gonna cross your threshold either.

Dood got his board for cost ( so you made zero) or free. You either didn’t make any money or lost big. And yes, he has a few buddies who will want stuff from you…but only for the same kind of deal he got. You make zero or lose big on each one.

Don’t sponsor anybody. Better off buying a few beers for random street people, it’s cheaper and does as much good. And I mean the ones with shopping bags full of old newspapers and a subtle smell of incontinence about them.

Really good shapers…are hard to find. You don’t want some kid starting out, who can maybe surf and is learning to shape, you want Jim Phillips or Phil Becker; somebody who can do a good, consistent and workmanlike job on every board. Who will deliver on time or ahead of time.

The problem, for those who are not located in a very few spots ( southern Cal, etc) , is that those guys don’t grow on trees. Good local shapers in most places already have their setup, their customer base, and asking them to give it up for you? Not easy, not really realistic if you’re out in the sticks.

For instance - the idea of somebody who had shaped 30,000 boards was brought up. Okay, doing the numbers on that, that is ( call 12 boards a day a reasonable workday over time - that’s way high but lets go with it ) 2500 days of shaping. Five day week, he has been around 500 weeks, ten years. He has sold ( at $300 a board wholesale, average - again, that’s a reasonable number if maybe kinda low ) nine million dollars worth of boards over ten years. That’s a lot of boards

He isn’t gonna give up his business for you. Instead, he has managed to unload all those boards somehow, you’d have to go to him with your hat in your hand to get some of his boards. He is good, or else he would have gone to another line of work years ago.

Lets say somebody has done a fraction of that. Call it 2000-5000 boards, which is about minimum for a good, reliable, professional shaper. Lets say he has done that over 10 years, learning his craft. If he has the skills, he can turn out what you need, whatever it is, and do a good board. Not flashy, not trendsetting, good. He has been ghost shaping a lot, he will put your name on a board he built, just his pencilled name on the stringer. He has access to shaping rooms, glassers of proven ability, sanders, glossers, polishers, etc. He is the one ya want.

But, there is still the no-fun-deluxe of selling new boards. You make damn little, you pay out big. If your shaper or glasser or sander, etc, goes on a bender or gets busted or just wanders off for a few months ( and, after all, how come your shaper isn’t working in mainstream industry? What’s his problem? ) you have to scramble to stay alive. Loyalty to you? hah! Ya want loyalty, get a labrador retriever.

You have to compete with the other new name boards, the no-name boards and the imports. And the dingdong down the street with the other surf shop who will sell at cost to break you and then he’s the only game in town. Or he is dumb enough to sponsor everybody, and you won’t be selling boards until he goes under.

Used boards are a beautiful thing. You can sell them and make more than ya would on a new board. Really. Your new board buyer will buy a good used board if it’s good and the price is right, your beginners/newbies are all over’ em like white on rice. Competition ain’t so cutthroat. Used boards are the nutz…

doc…

33

I started surfing in the very early 60’s—at that time i REALLY wanted to open a surf shop----but NOOOOO, went to college, played army, came home started teaching----kept surfing–dabbled in the business, shaper, glasser, ding repair, ran contests, shop semi-manager—kept surfing-----learned one major concept and one minor concept----to wit: Surfing is supposed to be FUN, if you ain’t havin’ fun do something else! AND running a surf shop is a good way to take a lot of money and turn it into a little bit of money!

34

doc, thanks for the point-by-point rundown. Basically, it’s look out for your best interest as the shop owner. Understandable.

I’m doing some marketing/design/web work for a guy that I described, although spread the board count over 30 years. Trying to figure out the whole surfshop/board market is a nightmare. We’re just trying to figure out how to fatten the margin a bit and it looks like softgoods is the way to go. He’s been giving a free t-shirt with each board, and just eats it as advertising cost. It’s $8 well spent though, cause everyone is stoked to get a free shirt tossed in and keeps the name fresh in their mind everytime they wear it. Embroided hats would be pretty nice and he’s had some hoodies printed but we’re in Florida so you really only have a couple months where you can even wear them. Rash guards are something that came up that seemed like a good idea too. Anyway, thanks for the rundown. Good to get the shopowners perspective on it.

Something else to think about as a shopowner is surf DVDs. There is a really small local shop that does really well with mail order surf DVDs and local rentals, but he says they definately add alot to the margin he makes. He sells a couple DVDs and makes the margin he would on a board. Much easier to stock, no haggle, buyers usually know what they want and he’s got a good connection with the distributor where he can usually get stuff he doesn’t have in stock the same week. He started doing DVD rentals and said that’s working out really good. He’s got a HUGE selection and it’s only $5 for 3 days and if you buy it he takes the $5 rental charge off the price. Kinda like rental boards, you keep making money on the same investment but you don’t have to worry about ding repair or shop space. Another thing he mentioned was that DVD rentals and sales actually went up when it was flat or the waves sucked, so you’re getting some sales when usually no one is coming in the door. Plus they gotta return it so you get them back in the shop again.

35

I nearly did the ‘snaaaarsh’ noise myself , the day a 20yo mate said to me …

“mate , how good would it be working in a surf shop …half price boards , surf before during and after work , free clothes …”

My brother works in one on Phillip Island . He said when tourists and surfers come in and ask him how the surf is , he tells them , "I don’t know , I 've been in here all day "

… do you want lots of time in the water ?

versus standing behind a counter listening to 14 yo kids telling you how much they rip, and how empty the surf was that morning at your local break [while you were behind the counter] ?? …

This is a good reality check thread , guys …I think there are still one or two deluded youth out there who may think a job in the surf retail industry is their ticket to a free Mentawaiis boat trip and cover photo in [insert name of surf mag here] . Dream on .

36

Nothing wrong with owning a surf shop. I loved it in many ways, but it’s better to have anothe way to make a living so you don’t lose everything. There can be a living in it, but unless your 1% of 1% your never going to be rich and very likely will live week to week.

Unless your really creative or live in a town where there is a need and no competition your going to have to sell out to make the bucks. If thats the case, why a surf shop? Why not something with better odds.

the main reason is ego. Being seen, everyone at the beach knowing your name, knowing all the good surfers, knowing all the industry people, hanging at surf expos. This is why many times those that make it in the industry are those surfers who never really fit into the line up and were even seen as kuks. They are desperate to have a non job, job. Owning a surf shop takes more cash, more time and with less time in the water than almost any other business and the pay off more than likely will be Reps being nice to your face and talking behind your back as they spend your dough or the IRS, Department of revenue, your vendors and others sicking collectors on you because you were 10 days late on your bill. A bill you earned from vendors because they hooked you up with terms to make sure you are always on the hook to them.

If you don’t have enough money to pay all your bills for at leat two years, don’t waste your time. It’s too big of a risk. Keep your day job or night job and build it slowly and stay small. never ever add another location. Regardless of all those that seem to be doing well at theirs.

You never need it.

37

why indeed …

I’d rather be surfing …most guys I know who work in / own surf shops are , like a lot of shapers I’ve met […pardon the french …] pricks .

One “surf industry guy” guy asked me [out in the water , after he’d dropped in on me twice ]…“mate , do you know who I AM ??”

[I think he must have thought he was Nat Young , by the way he was carrying on ! ] .

I said , "nup ... someone with a drop in and an ego trip problem , by the looks of it "

ben

needless to say , I don’t shop there any more … even my wax I buy at my surf supplier . [ie : board making gear supplier]

38

If you gents don’t mind, I am gonna bundle three replies here:

Running a shop can be fun. Stoked beginners that you showed a few things to, that can’t wait to get back in the water. But being stuck at the shop when it’s going off can make you crazy, cynical and whatever else you want to throw in.

In this biz, you have to fatten the margin. Indeed, selling anything but surfboards is where you make your money. Even something as stoopid as stickers - you pay a quarter apiece for 'em, sell 'em for a buck and give away a few - there’s a couple week’s pay in a thousand of 'em for a lousy $250 spent. And everybody wants a sticker.

Quick, cute trick - Avery sells clear mailing labels, inkjet printable or laser printable. Test your designs with a few dozen printed out. Go with a minimum of colors in any design, it’s cheaper and besides which if you want to take that design to silkscreen or something it’ll be vastly cheaper too.

Throwing in a t shirt isn’t a bad idea with a new board, if you don’t have the overhead of a whole surf shop to pay for too, if you are selling direct. The thing is, that’s a whole other level of markup/profits ya don’t need to deal with. But don’t cheeze out on the quality of the shirt.

Solo mentioned something that I should add to: an established surf shop is a destination . People will buy a t-shirt or a hat to kinda prove they were there. Stickers, of course, but keep those simple and cheap enough that they won’t stop with just a sticker.

Mail order or internet ordering is a truly beautiful thing. No storefront to speak of, you can keep your time in to a few evening hours, , maybe even a few hours a week. Surf dvds, yeah, especially if you can order 'em and have 'em delivered fast so you don’t get stuck with a shelf full of stuff that doesn’t move.

T’s, etc- you can’t order those and have 'em in three days without paying way too much. And screeners hate doing small lots, especially on somebody else’s stuff. Let them make a little on the t’s - that way, among other things they should eat any that didn’t come out right, you shouldn’t have to pay for their mistakes on their shirts. Besides which, chances are they buy enough from their jobbers/distributors so they can offer you a price better than you can get yourself.

Embroidered items- yeah, they look classy and hats sell very well. Thing is that most embroiderers are the black hole of Calcutta - things go in and never come out. Their machines are always breaking down or being replaced and nobody knows , really, how to run the new ones. I do some embroidered stuff, but I piggyback my stuff on another, much larger customer’s orders, so that I don’t get my hats delivered four months after my season is over. I get 'em two months after my season is over. If you can find a good, relatively local embroiderer who will actually deliver on time and do it for a reasonable price, cultivate 'em.

Same goes for silkscreeners. Besides which, if you do cultivate 'em then you get a few hints on what is selling well this season, what the new colors are in T’s, etc. That can save your butt, but remember that this year’s hot color may be next year’s ‘we still have that??’.

Rash guards- two things about rash guards; they can be tough to get, unprinted and good quality. The other thing is printing your logo on 'em - they are nylon/lycra, and if your silkscreener isn’t very familiar with printing on that stuff you will either get peel-away prints or else ( with the wrong inks and dryer temps) kill a lot of rashguards. If your distributor can print 'em for ya, good- it is then their problem, not yours, and any that are F#*ked up when delivered can go back.

Something I may not have covered enough is inventory budget. See, you don’t have an infinite amount of dough to spend on inventory. And those ‘easy credit terms’ will soon be not so easy, they want their money right now or you will be shut down on any other orders from anybody else, not just them.

So, you need to think about what will sell and make you money. Like the man said, look out for your best interests as a shop owner, not what will make you feel good or what will just sell and not make money.

And… a job in the biz isn’t bad, all in all. The pay sucks, 'cos every other little grommet wants in on it too, but it can be fun. Sometimes. Just did the numbers and it occurred to me that I am fast coming up on 40 years at it, involved with one shop… and sometimes it seems like I am still that grommet kid, psyched to be involved in it all.

doc…

39

A very cool thread this is… I have a friend that very badly wants to open a surf shop. He asked me if I want to go in with him. I told him the farthest I’d go is put a board or 2 on consignment in his shop and I’d support him by buying wax, shirts etc…

The ONLY way to look at a surf shop is as a business and to me, being here in Hawaii with a hundred other sources for surf stuff including Cosco and Wal-Mart etc, its just way to competitive. The pie is sliced so thin, FORGET IT HERE ON OAHU!!! Opening a Surf Shop here on Oahu would be a horrible business decision at this time, in this market. Oh yeah, did I mention the internet as another competitor??? No F’n WAY!!! Hahahahahaha!!!

I’ve been very fortunate to become very successful in business here in Hawaii the old fashion way… Lost everything I owned by making BAD business decisions trying to do things I loved. Even had to live in my van for awhile on the side of the street. Finally woke up and emersed myself into business where money is plentiful. Now I can surf whenever the heck I want feed my family and afford to have the creature comforts of America. Isn’t that the goal in life? Not a dime I make is from the surf industry and thats just the way I like it. I have zero stress related to the surfing industry.

Now, outside of Hawaii I couldn’t give you any insight on where a good shop would be but I know for sure there is a lot more money to be made outside of the industry. Keen business sense will allow you to get plenty money and surf all you want… Good luck boyz and goilz…

Aloha

40

I’ve dreamed of a surf shop, coffee bar, bar restaurant, named “TALK STORY.” A place where you could kick it with like minded people, sipping coffee (after the dawn patrol) or beers (after the evening glass off), and talk about the waves, boards, watch videos, eat fish tacos and BBQ shishkebobs…hey, sounds almost like this site…