Mind if I ask what line of business you are in?
Just thought I would bring this thread to the top of the list again. If you’ve ever thought of opening a surf shop I think you should read this thread first as I think some of the information in it is absolutely priceless.
http://www2.swaylocks.com/node/1026413
Here is another one I started that never went too far. You can buy one for less than a car and you can start one for the same from scratch you own way. If the one you want to buy doesn’t have major lines…why not start your own line and keep it original.
Tips For Inventors: Garagemanship by Tom Morey
Don't patent...
I believe it is usually better to give an idea to the public via an announcement, article or video uploaded to Youtube than to start dumping money into attorney’s fees. Patents are expensive to begin with, then suck you dry down line. Then there's this: in the District of Columbia, seat of the US Patent and Trademark Office, as of 20 years ago (which was the last time I probed the question) from the beginning of this governmental department, no patent action had EVER upheld the rights of the patenter.
Exception: If you develop something that you are sure can be sold to a manufacturer (at say a patent auction… and this is a growing trend), something that you’d never want to take to market yourself, then of course the potential manufacturer needs proof that the thing is yours. And by the way, it is possible to both obtain and sell a patent for which no working prototype was ever built. (Go online and Google patent auctions).
...Promote!
Better use of your money is to develop the doohickey until you have a working prototype. Then, announce it to the world via a trade journal. In my field of surfing this would be The Surfer’s Journal, Surfer Magazine, or online via Surfline.com. This way, you become known as the inventor. For free! Your idea starts to gain notoriety. The fact that a major trade journal published the article gives the gizmo credence.
Because you’ve given it to the public, the public then likes you. Remember, to make money on the doodad you have to make sales. Sales are not about holding a gun to someone’s head because you have the patent. Sales depend on goodwill, good feelings.
Publishing the idea puts it in the ‘public domain’; ends the possibility of anyone else ever preventing you from using it.
Regardless of how you tackle the protection issue, if it’s a good idea, it will in time be ‘knocked off’ by someone. However, as they say, “Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery”. So when copying does take place, the knock off popularizes your idea. You as the established inventor get a free ride not only on all of your imitator’s publicity but also on every one of his advertising dollars.
In fact it is usually not until there is competition that the public wakes up to real value of an invention. Study the sales history of Coca-Cola. You’ll find a tremendous boost in sales that is the direct result of Pepsi-Cola’s efforts.
Today the world market is so huge, no one supplier can satisfy it. The best anyone can do is get a good chunk of the business. Be content with that.
For the most part, the public is quite loyal; its sentiment lies with the ‘original’.
Because you gave this idea to the public, if someone improves upon it, you have every right in the world to incorporate said improvement into your next iteration.
Trademarks—yes!
The best use of your money for protection is a trademark. I trademarked the words ‘Morey Boogie’ back around 1975 for TEN DOLLARS. Best ten bucks I’ve ever spent. People want brand names. Once established, and if maintained, brands can go on for decades. But even better than a trademark is your own name. It is not something you trademark. It IS you. Your name on the product says, “I am the guy who gets the credit or blame for this thing, I’m behind this 100%.” When I was about 17 my dad told me to take the name ‘Morey’ and run with it. I have, and it’s worked out pretty well. There’s nothing better than to have your own name become well known for good works you’ve done. However it is chancy. Screw up and down goes not only your name but also the name of your future family.
If fact it can go down the toilet even if you do well with it. Consider Thomas Crapper, the man in recent generations who did most to create water closet flush toilets. His name and legacy turned to ‘crap’, through no fault of his own, simply because it became more polite to say ‘crap’ than ‘shit’.
One more point on this. Because your own name can become ever more or less valuable in time, you build more personal character—or else.
Publicity
The very best publicity is that your Thingamabob works. That means it: Does what it is supposed to do and does it reliably
Is either so cheap it needs no repairing, just toss and renew, OR is ease to repair.
If for your product, word of mouth promotion is not enough, in today’s world: magazines, news papers, radio stations, TV stations and numerous online services are ever crying for any real news about anything. Write up and or film the gizmo in use, and get it out there with your email address, website and phone number large and easy to find.
Then if and when they call, be sure there is a LIVE, INTELLIGENT and LOVING human answering the phone.
Good publicity is better than good advertisements.
Hire a good publicist. He is always more valuable than a good ad man, whatever (s)he costs is going to be far less than the cost of someone else creating an ad then also the cost of buying the space to run the ad.
Advertising
Study this field thoroughly. Read David Olgilvy’s master piece Confessions of an Advertising Man and make it your ad bible—even though it’s 50 years old.
Product development
As you are developing your idea, do not keep it to yourself. Rather, tell everybody.
By so doing you acquire a great deal of free feedback. Along with bringing forth your ‘great idea’ in conversation, solicit advice and pre-inform the giver that there will be no remuneration from you; that whatever they offer, they are so doing from the goodness of their heart. You’ll be surprised at the depth of improvement your product gains; and how many silly, thoughtless notions you’d held so dear are dispelled.
Two other big things happen when I openly discuss my invention. Often, I soon find my idea really isn’t too original or hot and save myself a lot of time and expense down line. The other thing is that the tendency for others to copy it is defused by the reality that if they were, they’d not only have to compete with you but also be in competition with who knows how many other people you’d been spilling your beans to.
The Seven Sisters of Invention
Name it, draw it, describe it, model it, price it, sleep on it, and discuss it. Repeat. Inventing is not a simple process. I don’t just think of an idea, and then model it. Let’s say I make a few drawings, but then get stuck. I’ll switch to working on the product’s name or a description of some of its features. Or I’ll look up what materials and processes could be used to build it… or just take a nap. Then later I’ll get back on it from some other tact.
When I can’t take an approach any further, I leave it be. Inventions are a little like cats. Walk away from one and it will come after you; pester you on its own.
Maybe a mental picture of something interesting pops into my mind. Or, it could be a clever word, or a pronounced need which I accidentally come across. So I start bringing it along.
Yes, if a prototype seems achievable, I start right on it as soon as possible, even if it’s just sticking together some marshmallows with tooth picks and drawing on them with a marking pen.
If not, I’ll make some sketches; discuss the concept with someone, even a cat or dog. I’ll imagine a price tag on it; then give that tag various prices. I’ll think of how to describe it, write down thoughts about its qualities or usage. I’ll imagine how it could be publicized and advertised, imagine it being used… expand or contract the image of the typical user to the opposite sex, children or the elderly or some special section of humanity, maybe a particular race, religion, sport, activity occupation, location, etc.
As a result of feeding the idea some of this kind of energy it takes on a life of its own. Or, after enough of this, the ‘great idea’ may instead make its way to the back burner; or maybe even the trash can.
Because in this age, there are many opportunities. And it is well to do as was advised in ancient days, supposedly by Jesus as told in a seldom read Gospel of Jesus by the disciple Thomas, “Be like the wise fisherman who cast his net into the sea, brought forth many fish but kept only the largest for himself and threw the rest back."
Environment
If, as you’re trying to come up with creative goods, you’re listening to puke music in the background, angry people shouting for attention, explicating the lowest forms of language and idiot drum beats, well, this is driving with your brakes on.
Listen to real creators, classical composers, jazz masters like John Coletrane, Miles Davis, Lee Morgan, Dizzy Gillespie, Elvin Jones, Charlie Parker, Stan Getz. Listen to music that gives you goose bumps.
Sell One
It’s one thing to dream up a doodad, another thing to turn it into something profitable.
So as you work on your creation, and before you think too much about price, sell one. Get the experience under your belt of making your first sale.
Pricing
If there’s no way you can make the thing for say $1, $10, $100, or $1000 labor and material and retail it to a stranger who will HAPPILY pay $4, $40, $400 or $4000 for it, forget about it as a product. Produce something whose direct cost is $1.00, then your company will have to sell it to the next guy in the market chain for about $2.00 so the company can pay overhead, taxes, returns, and make a little profit on it as well. Between your $2.00 and the final $4.00 sale price are all the cost and profits of middle men and retail outlets.
Yet, it might be that you can only make a decent profit if you both make it and sell it yourself. Ok, so be it. Be content with that. Cut your personal overhead so you can live in your van and travel the world. What could be better?
By the way, when I first started to sell boogieboards I found I had two kinds of friends; the ones who felt that because they were my friend, they were entitled to a special deal. Then there were my real friends, “Tom, I think that thing is terrific. I insist on paying full price in support of your efforts.”
Design
If there is any criterion for determining beauty, again IF, then it is function.
Colors
Take your camera to the local garbage dump, and shoot random pictures of its contents.
You’ll find many color combinations. Build a product colored like one of these schemes and someone will love it. But probably… more than likely, not many people. Color combinations that you, your friends for artists, come up with probably will not last. Instead, take your cues from nature
Nature’s favorite colors seem to be shades of blue. That’s what there are the most of; witness the colors of the sky and sea.
Greens and the various colors of bushes come next, or perhaps desert tans.
A favorite color scheme is the gradiation of a dark blue sky, down to lighter, then sun rise or sun set colors, then the sand of the beach.
Other great color schemes can be taken from the exact combinations on various birds and fish.
Materials
Material types, grades, fabrication techniques are not infinite and should be regularly studied by any serious innovator.
Scale, speed, hue, intensity.
These are a few of the variables which, when applied to music, make tremendous differences. So as well if/as applied to your product. For example, what fits pretty well, might, if redesigned to fit exceedingly well (the foot, the group, and the mood, whatever) make a considerable difference.
Fill needs yet so they’ll want it.
The needs and wants of humans seldom coincide. Clean air, we both want and need. However, we often want what is not best for us. Cater to needs, and over the long term you’ll greatly increase your market. Present what you create in such a way that they also want it but keep your focus on providing what you’d want for yourself, what is good for others.
Enough for now.
Don't patent...
I believe it is usually better to give an idea to the public via an announcement, article or video uploaded to Youtube than to start dumping money into attorney’s fees. Patents are expensive to begin with, then suck you dry down line. Then there's this: in the District of Columbia, seat of the US Patent and Trademark Office, as of 20 years ago (which was the last time I probed the question) from the beginning of this governmental department, no patent action had EVER upheld the rights of the patenter.
Exception: If you develop something that you are sure can be sold to a manufacturer (at say a patent auction… and this is a growing trend), something that you’d never want to take to market yourself, then of course the potential manufacturer needs proof that the thing is yours. And by the way, it is possible to both obtain and sell a patent for which no working prototype was ever built. (Go online and Google patent auctions).
...Promote!
Better use of your money is to develop the doohickey until you have a working prototype. Then, announce it to the world via a trade journal. In my field of surfing this would be The Surfer’s Journal, Surfer Magazine, or online via Surfline.com. This way, you become known as the inventor. For free! Your idea starts to gain notoriety. The fact that a major trade journal published the article gives the gizmo credence.
Because you’ve given it to the public, the public then likes you. Remember, to make money on the doodad you have to make sales. Sales are not about holding a gun to someone’s head because you have the patent. Sales depend on goodwill, good feelings.
Publishing the idea puts it in the ‘public domain’; ends the possibility of anyone else ever preventing you from using it.
Regardless of how you tackle the protection issue, if it’s a good idea, it will in time be ‘knocked off’ by someone. However, as they say, “Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery”. So when copying does take place, the knock off popularizes your idea. You as the established inventor get a free ride not only on all of your imitator’s publicity but also on every one of his advertising dollars.
In fact it is usually not until there is competition that the public wakes up to real value of an invention. Study the sales history of Coca-Cola. You’ll find a tremendous boost in sales that is the direct result of Pepsi-Cola’s efforts.
Today the world market is so huge, no one supplier can satisfy it. The best anyone can do is get a good chunk of the business. Be content with that.
For the most part, the public is quite loyal; its sentiment lies with the ‘original’.
Because you gave this idea to the public, if someone improves upon it, you have every right in the world to incorporate said improvement into your next iteration.
Trademarks—yes!
The best use of your money for protection is a trademark. I trademarked the words ‘Morey Boogie’ back around 1975 for TEN DOLLARS. Best ten bucks I’ve ever spent. People want brand names. Once established, and if maintained, brands can go on for decades. But even better than a trademark is your own name. It is not something you trademark. It IS you. Your name on the product says, “I am the guy who gets the credit or blame for this thing, I’m behind this 100%.” When I was about 17 my dad told me to take the name ‘Morey’ and run with it. I have, and it’s worked out pretty well. There’s nothing better than to have your own name become well known for good works you’ve done. However it is chancy. Screw up and down goes not only your name but also the name of your future family.
If fact it can go down the toilet even if you do well with it. Consider Thomas Crapper, the man in recent generations who did most to create water closet flush toilets. His name and legacy turned to ‘crap’, through no fault of his own, simply because it became more polite to say ‘crap’ than ‘shit’.
One more point on this. Because your own name can become ever more or less valuable in time, you build more personal character—or else.
Publicity
The very best publicity is that your Thingamabob works. That means it: Does what it is supposed to do and does it reliably
Is either so cheap it needs no repairing, just toss and renew, OR is ease to repair.
If for your product, word of mouth promotion is not enough, in today’s world: magazines, news papers, radio stations, TV stations and numerous online services are ever crying for any real news about anything. Write up and or film the gizmo in use, and get it out there with your email address, website and phone number large and easy to find.
Then if and when they call, be sure there is a LIVE, INTELLIGENT and LOVING human answering the phone.
Good publicity is better than good advertisements.
Hire a good publicist. He is always more valuable than a good ad man, whatever (s)he costs is going to be far less than the cost of someone else creating an ad then also the cost of buying the space to run the ad.
Advertising
Study this field thoroughly. Read David Olgilvy’s master piece Confessions of an Advertising Man and make it your ad bible—even though it’s 50 years old.
Product development
As you are developing your idea, do not keep it to yourself. Rather, tell everybody.
By so doing you acquire a great deal of free feedback. Along with bringing forth your ‘great idea’ in conversation, solicit advice and pre-inform the giver that there will be no remuneration from you; that whatever they offer, they are so doing from the goodness of their heart. You’ll be surprised at the depth of improvement your product gains; and how many silly, thoughtless notions you’d held so dear are dispelled.
Two other big things happen when I openly discuss my invention. Often, I soon find my idea really isn’t too original or hot and save myself a lot of time and expense down line. The other thing is that the tendency for others to copy it is defused by the reality that if they were, they’d not only have to compete with you but also be in competition with who knows how many other people you’d been spilling your beans to.
The Seven Sisters of Invention
Name it, draw it, describe it, model it, price it, sleep on it, and discuss it. Repeat. Inventing is not a simple process. I don’t just think of an idea, and then model it. Let’s say I make a few drawings, but then get stuck. I’ll switch to working on the product’s name or a description of some of its features. Or I’ll look up what materials and processes could be used to build it… or just take a nap. Then later I’ll get back on it from some other tact.
When I can’t take an approach any further, I leave it be. Inventions are a little like cats. Walk away from one and it will come after you; pester you on its own.
Maybe a mental picture of something interesting pops into my mind. Or, it could be a clever word, or a pronounced need which I accidentally come across. So I start bringing it along.
Yes, if a prototype seems achievable, I start right on it as soon as possible, even if it’s just sticking together some marshmallows with tooth picks and drawing on them with a marking pen.
If not, I’ll make some sketches; discuss the concept with someone, even a cat or dog. I’ll imagine a price tag on it; then give that tag various prices. I’ll think of how to describe it, write down thoughts about its qualities or usage. I’ll imagine how it could be publicized and advertised, imagine it being used… expand or contract the image of the typical user to the opposite sex, children or the elderly or some special section of humanity, maybe a particular race, religion, sport, activity occupation, location, etc.
As a result of feeding the idea some of this kind of energy it takes on a life of its own. Or, after enough of this, the ‘great idea’ may instead make its way to the back burner; or maybe even the trash can.
Because in this age, there are many opportunities. And it is well to do as was advised in ancient days, supposedly by Jesus as told in a seldom read Gospel of Jesus by the disciple Thomas, “Be like the wise fisherman who cast his net into the sea, brought forth many fish but kept only the largest for himself and threw the rest back."
Environment
If, as you’re trying to come up with creative goods, you’re listening to puke music in the background, angry people shouting for attention, explicating the lowest forms of language and idiot drum beats, well, this is driving with your brakes on.
Listen to real creators, classical composers, jazz masters like John Coletrane, Miles Davis, Lee Morgan, Dizzy Gillespie, Elvin Jones, Charlie Parker, Stan Getz. Listen to music that gives you goose bumps.
Sell One
It’s one thing to dream up a doodad, another thing to turn it into something profitable.
So as you work on your creation, and before you think too much about price, sell one. Get the experience under your belt of making your first sale.
Pricing
If there’s no way you can make the thing for say $1, $10, $100, or $1000 labor and material and retail it to a stranger who will HAPPILY pay $4, $40, $400 or $4000 for it, forget about it as a product. Produce something whose direct cost is $1.00, then your company will have to sell it to the next guy in the market chain for about $2.00 so the company can pay overhead, taxes, returns, and make a little profit on it as well. Between your $2.00 and the final $4.00 sale price are all the cost and profits of middle men and retail outlets.
Yet, it might be that you can only make a decent profit if you both make it and sell it yourself. Ok, so be it. Be content with that. Cut your personal overhead so you can live in your van and travel the world. What could be better?
By the way, when I first started to sell boogieboards I found I had two kinds of friends; the ones who felt that because they were my friend, they were entitled to a special deal. Then there were my real friends, “Tom, I think that thing is terrific. I insist on paying full price in support of your efforts.”
Design
If there is any criterion for determining beauty, again IF, then it is function.
Colors
Take your camera to the local garbage dump, and shoot random pictures of its contents.
You’ll find many color combinations. Build a product colored like one of these schemes and someone will love it. But probably… more than likely, not many people. Color combinations that you, your friends for artists, come up with probably will not last. Instead, take your cues from nature
Nature’s favorite colors seem to be shades of blue. That’s what there are the most of; witness the colors of the sky and sea.
Greens and the various colors of bushes come next, or perhaps desert tans.
A favorite color scheme is the gradiation of a dark blue sky, down to lighter, then sun rise or sun set colors, then the sand of the beach.
Other great color schemes can be taken from the exact combinations on various birds and fish.
Materials
Material types, grades, fabrication techniques are not infinite and should be regularly studied by any serious innovator.
Scale, speed, hue, intensity.
These are a few of the variables which, when applied to music, make tremendous differences. So as well if/as applied to your product. For example, what fits pretty well, might, if redesigned to fit exceedingly well (the foot, the group, and the mood, whatever) make a considerable difference.
Fill needs yet so they’ll want it.
The needs and wants of humans seldom coincide. Clean air, we both want and need. However, we often want what is not best for us. Cater to needs, and over the long term you’ll greatly increase your market. Present what you create in such a way that they also want it but keep your focus on providing what you’d want for yourself, what is good for others.
Enough for now.
Great addition Paul.
Agreed -
A few things, mebbe updates for 2010 and the biz being what it is -
As Morey said,
"Pricing
If there’s no way you can make the thing for say $1, $10, $100, or $1000 labor and material and retail it to a stranger who will HAPPILY pay $4, $40, $400 or $4000 for it, forget about it as a product. Produce something whose direct cost is $1.00, then your company will have to sell it to the next guy in the market chain for about $2.00 so the company can pay overhead, taxes, returns, and make a little profit on it as well. Between your $2.00 and the final $4.00 sale price are all the cost and profits of middle men and retail outlets."
Now, there's ways around that these days that were not available when Morey wrote that. We're using one now.
You can, if you're clever and you don't mind learning a little coding, get a website up and running for a couple of hundred bucks, right down to the mymarvellousgizmo.com domain. Sell it online, use Paypal or similar.
No bricks and mortar costs, you sell your marvellous thing for full retail plus shipping and handling. Or via eBay, which is a real good and cheap way to find out if your bright idea is as good and commercially viable as you think it is.
And put up a page someplace with the details of your wonder gizmo. That covers the 'Public Domain' thing Morey mentions. Yes, somebody will copy it. Good for them. But what you don't want to do is have Amalgamated Conglomerate Inc. coming in, manufacturing the thing and then suing your @ss when you make some of what you invented.
If I was starting a surf shop, now, I wouldn't have a retail store at all. It would all be online,
Rather than 10 hours a day tending the store, it's two hours a day printing out orders, packing and shipping. Instead of relatively big bucks for storefront rent and utilities, you can do it out of your garage or basement. Instead of spending lots of money on print and ( heaven help you) radio or other media ads, you spend an hour a week writing your 'weekly sale' web page and uploading it.
And you don't have to hire Dood McDude to rifle the register, give half the stock away to his idiot little buddies and walk off stoned as a rat around closing time and forget to shut off the lights and lock the door....
Don't laugh, that last happened when the boss and I both took an afternoon off once....and only once. People were walking over to the restaurant next door, carrying the merchandise and asking how they could pay for it. Young Dood got a bit of a talking to the next morning, I'll tell ya, starting with a two-man chorus of "You F**king Idiot..."
No sales display expenses and hassles, it'd all be industrial shelving and cheap lights. No business licenses if you're low-key and stay under the radar, no sales taxes to deal with if you sell mostly out of state, bookkeeping gets vastly simpler and cheaper, no payroll to worry about. And if you do get big enough to where you need to hire help, you can laugh all the way to the bank.
You don't have to worry about making enough to pay the shop rent and heat in winter. You don't have to give up the day job that got you this far. And if it all goes pear-shaped, sell off your stock ( and domain name) to the bricks-and-mortar surf shop up the road at cost and walk away at break-even. Instead of being thousands in debt, unemployed and probably divorced and paying alimony and child support.
Would it need careful stock selection? Yeah, you want to either have good prices on 'name' items ( select your vendors carefully, have a tax number and so on to crack the wholesale barrier) or unique items that only you have ( see the eBay thing above for testing the waters) .
Have your ducks lined up, nothing pisses off an online customer like finding out the item is 'out of stock' after they order. Which means you need to update the website regularly, Again, no heavy lifting there, providing you do it yourself instead of hiring Dood's brother Geek McDude to write and maintain your site for an obscene hourly rate. HTML isn't hard to learn, rather than the horrible cr@p that Dreamweaver and similar turn out, especially if you use CSS and other labor-savers.
And let it begin again....
doc...
Everyone is small business should read “The Four Hour Work Week” by Tim Ferris…A life changer…!!!..
An old mate of mine runs a successful surfshop in the UK. Successful coz its been running about 30 yrs and looks like its going to be passed on to the next generation - it keeps his son full time employed. Successful coz it sailed thru the financial crisis without any problems. I visited last year at the height of the GFC and he told me that not running on borrowed money was part of it. I remember him answering the phone - it was surftech trying to sell him discounted stock - he accepted a few and seemed to make the decision with no stress and was considering the colour of the longboards in the decision (he already stocked this brand).
Successful coz he has never let the business compromise his surfing. He is a former champion and surfs a lot. Most of his surfing is mid-week in winter when the shop is quiet - the best time to surf in the UK. He surfs summer too of course, but is sometimes rushed and has to keep his sessions short.
I have no business ability so I'm sure there is a lot more to his success than meets my eye, however here is why I think its worked.
1. Location. He became the first and only surf shop in the tiny village. This village right next to the most consistent beachbreak for miles. The surf is nothing special but its suitable for all.
2. Reputation. Former European champion, British champion etc meant he had a high profile and suppliers were prepared to give him stock on credit when he was first starting out with not much money.
3. Personality. He is very approachable and has time for anyone.
4. Surfboard hire - the beach is suitable for beginners and during summer holidays there are many tourists who pass his shop on the way to the beach and they want to try surfing. Apart from surfboard hire he doesn't do any other type of business.
5. He stocks what people want. Its not a big shop but he has good wetties eg xcel and rip-curl for winter and cheaper brands for the tourists. Heaps of different types of booties. Big label HP shortboards eg Channel Islands, JS. The longboards are built locally and from surftech - thats what the UK market is like. For the novices there are imported epoxy fun-boards
6. His shop is not big but there is a large storage in the rear where he keeps additional stock.
I can't actually remember what his clothes situation is. I'm not interested in surf clothing so didn't take any notice in my last visit. However he has always done T-shirts with his shop name on it and gives away T-shirts to friends. It took him a long time to get to where his is now. He started off small in tiny premises and moved twice more - but all in the same village. In the early eighties he did for a short while make boards, but obviously that activity wasn't profitable coz it didn't last. I think this was due to him being better at surfing than he was at surfboard building. I showed him how to get started with the glassing so this probably didn't help either!
You already mentioned his main attribute…longevity. People are creatures of habit. He ha earned it also. That’s what happens when you outlast your competition. Here is also a part of you likely don’t know about. If anyone in this town had an idea for a surf shop and decided to build a really nice shop that would compete with this guy…Nope. A few calls to those companies you mentioned and the new shop would be more than likely frozen out. Like calling Don Corleoni. Lot’s of dirty pool behind the scenes. I feel sorry for that country if top brands from the magazines are what most the market is craving. Sounds like my home town.
[quote="$1"]
An old mate of mine runs a successful surfshop in the UK. Successful coz its been running about 30 yrs and looks like its going to be passed on to the next generation - it keeps his son full time employed. Successful coz it sailed thru the financial crisis without any problems. I visited last year at the height of the GFC and he told me that not running on borrowed money was part of it. I remember him answering the phone - it was surftech trying to sell him discounted stock - he accepted a few and seemed to make the decision with no stress and was considering the colour of the longboards in the decision (he already stocked this brand).
[/quote]
Let's go through this and point out the stuff that really helps make things last.
First off, lasting a while has a momentum all its own. You become the go-to shop, for both manufacturers and customers. Word of mouth instead of money thrown away on advertising.
Employees, family, if it works then you have a major problem licked. 'Cos 'surfer labor' isn't. Your employees should be loyal to you, not their little stoner idiot buddies.
Running on your own money rather than easy credit terms, well, that knocks your costs way down. Along with (again) being the go-to guy for manufacturers, so you can get deals somebody new wouldn't. It's not so much jacking up your profits so much as keeping your costs down. If you're paying 18% interest on your stock, well, that's cut your profit margin big.
[quote="$1"]
Successful coz he has never let the business compromise his surfing. He is a former champion and surfs a lot. Most of his surfing is mid-week in winter when the shop is quiet - the best time to surf in the UK. He surfs summer too of course, but is sometimes rushed and has to keep his sessions short.
[/quote]
Heh- if you want to surf a lot, become a bartender. 'Cos when you have a surf shop, that 'gone surfing' sign on the closed door during business hours means you just gave your customer base to a competitor.
[quote="$1"]
I have no business ability so I'm sure there is a lot more to his success than meets my eye, however here is why I think its worked.
1. Location. He became the first and only surf shop in the tiny village. This village right next to the most consistent beachbreak for miles. The surf is nothing special but its suitable for all.
[/quote]
Serve your market, be a 'niche', and if that niche is big enough, you'll be good as long as it lasts.
[quote="$1"]
2. Reputation. Former European champion, British champion etc meant he had a high profile and suppliers were prepared to give him stock on credit when he was first starting out with not much money.
[/quote]
Plus a certain credibility with customers. They know you know something about it and can give 'em good advice.
[quote="$1"]
3. Personality. He is very approachable and has time for anyone.
[/quote]
Absolutely essential. It's a people business, not a surf business. The ones that don't know what they want need to be gently steered to what they need and the ones that do know what they want are often wrong, a fat guy with little real ability has to be steered away from that 5'10" thruster or else he'll be very unhappy with it and badmouth you forever, even if it was all his idea.
[quote="$1"]
4. Surfboard hire - the beach is suitable for beginners and during summer holidays there are many tourists who pass his shop on the way to the beach and they want to try surfing. Apart from surfboard hire he doesn't do any other type of business.
[/quote]
I can't stress too much how good rentals are. Rent somebody a board and wetsuit for a day and you make nearly as much as you would selling the same board new for retail price...which you never get anyhow. And then they bring it back and you can do it again the next day. And at the end of the season you sell the board 'used' for not a lot less than retail.
[quote="$1"]
5. He stocks what people want. Its not a big shop but he has good wetties eg xcel and rip-curl for winter and cheaper brands for the tourists. Heaps of different types of booties. Big label HP shortboards eg Channel Islands, JS. The longboards are built locally and from surftech - thats what the UK market is like. For the novices there are imported epoxy fun-boards
[/quote]
Very, very important. You make money on wetsuits and such that you don't make on surfboards. The profit on a $150 wetsuit may well be better than that on a $600 surfboard. Plus lower price stuff to beginners/novices. Without condescending to 'em.
Plus, 'what people want' - Gotta have it there, in stock, or the customer goes to somebody who does have it. Not necessarily what you like, but what the customers like.
[quote="$1"]
6. His shop is not big but there is a large storage in the rear where he keeps additional stock.
I can't actually remember what his clothes situation is. I'm not interested in surf clothing so didn't take any notice in my last visit. However he has always done T-shirts with his shop name on it and gives away T-shirts to friends. It took him a long time to get to where his is now. He started off small in tiny premises and moved twice more - but all in the same village. In the early eighties he did for a short while make boards, but obviously that activity wasn't profitable coz it didn't last. I think this was due to him being better at surfing than he was at surfboard building. I showed him how to get started with the glassing so this probably didn't help either!
[/quote]
A big shop costs big money in rent. And it's expensive to keep it from looking empty, you need to stock a lot of stuff. If it looks empty, people wonder why and wonder if you're gonna be around to honor your warranties and so on.
Better to have a small place well filled, with back stock out back and convenient so you can make the sale every time.
Landlords are a flaky lot. When they see you making money, they want to have it instead of you, so you have to move to someplace more reasonable. Or they decide they don't want a bunch of lowlife surfers around their property ( never mind that a lot of 'em show up in Beemers and Benzes and make more than the landlord could in his wildest dreams) .... so, you need to find a new home.
Surfing's popularity goes in cycles. We're on the downward side of one now. Going big when things are good, well, it bites you when you need to drop your costs later. Let somebody else be the big, flashy shop....for a while....
Making boards and having a surf shop, well, it's hard to do both well. One or the other has to come first and the other one suffers, winds up as the neglected stepchild dragging you down. Especially if you want to have a life too. You'll see some bigger boardmakers that have a 'factory shop', but it's a small auxiliary to the main business, selling a few boards and a lot of t-shirts.
Uhmmmm- making boards I'd avoid, I'd even have some second thoughts about doing ding repairs unless you're really, really good and fast. 'Cos they all want 'em better than new and done yesterday. And something always comes up. And you don't want to be selling stuff in the shop reeking of resin and covered with itchy dust, the merchandise or you. I used to do 'em on the side, as 'me' and not as the shop, after hours or at home. And even then, it was a hassle, my time off went away and the money wasn't that good.
doc...
I forgot to mention in my other post that when I said there is dirty dealing behind the scenes. Sometimes…it’s not dirty dealing, it’s because they earned it through paying on time and ordering enough to keep the suppliers happy.
I still think the companies should sell to any legitimate shop even if it’s cod, but seeing their side of it. It’s just easier to deal with someone that is proven over someone who more than likely is not even going to be around three years.
99% of the companies would do better if they fired their ridiculous sales representatives attempting to live surfer world life and hired an in house person who knows his job is dependent upon making the calls and servicing the customers and not giving off some cool image so he can keep traveling around surfing and slapping backs.
The skate industry has pretty much switched to this and it’s much better to work with. You go online, see what you want make an order. You don’t have to waste time with some sales rep taking up an hour of your time trying to sell you something that is trendyj rather than what will move out the door quickly and allow you to re order.
There are good reps…but they are very very rare. BTW: A fully stocked skateboard section is worth it’s weight in gold. It was in my store anyway. You can skate 365 days a year. If not for having to dumb yourself down to speak to half the customers, it was my favorite side of the business next to the surfboards themselves.
[quote="$1"]
I forgot to mention in my other post that when I said there is dirty dealing behind the scenes. Sometimes...it's not dirty dealing, it's because they earned it through paying on time and ordering enough to keep the suppliers happy.
[/quote]
Definitely. Though doesn't it tick you off when some supplier, who has been paid on time ( or up front) all along, they won't cut a better deal. Though sometimes that's a badly run supplier and sometimes it's the rep....
[quote="$1"]
I still think the companies should sell to any legitimate shop even if it's cod, but seeing their side of it. It's just easier to deal with someone that is proven over someone who more than likely is not even going to be around three years.
[/quote]
Yep- we always paid up front or COD, just so we wouldn't have bills hanging over us when the season was over. 'Cos it's kinda hard finding the money when things are slow, while on the other hand if your stock is paid for then it's okay to cut some off-season deals....or not. Your back isn't against the wall.
But...I sometimes think that was our problem with some suppliers. We didn't need to be coddled, didn't need to be kept sweet, lest we bag the idea of paying for something we already had.
[quote="$1"]
99% of the companies would do better if they fired their ridiculous sales representatives attempting to live surfer world life and hired an in house person who knows his job is dependent upon making the calls and servicing the customers and not giving off some cool image so he can keep traveling around surfing and slapping backs.
[/quote]
Absolutely once again. I remember one rep listening to his answering machine and saying 'F#k him, F#k him...' while I was standing in his kitchen. Same joker that would cut your competition a deal to get in the door while giving you the same old same old price and not servicing your order. When they went in-house it bothered me not at all. Seems he had been helping himself to his commission before sending on the money to his company.
[quote="$1"]
The skate industry has pretty much switched to this and it's much better to work with. You go online, see what you want make an order. You don't have to waste time with some sales rep taking up an hour of your time trying to sell you something that is trendy rather than what will move out the door quickly and allow you to re order.
[/quote]
Yep, trying to make believe they are channelled into what the 14 year old skate kids want, when they are my age and have even less idea than I do of what really goes in that market.
[quote="$1"]
There are good reps...but they are very very rare.
[/quote]
Those are the ones who will tell you what not to order, that is wrong for your market. And let you know about something coming along ( or about to be discontinued and thus going cheap) that you can do very well on.
Unfortunately, those guys tend to be replaced by an in-house slacker cousin of the factory owner. Which figures.
[quote="$1"]
BTW: A fully stocked skateboard section is worth it's weight in gold. It was in my store anyway. You can skate 365 days a year. If not for having to dumb yourself down to speak to half the customers, it was my favorite side of the business next to the surfboards themselves.
[/quote]
Well, yeah - that and you need to know the market. I know nothing about skate stuff, and haven't since I traded my G&S Fiberflex ( in...beautiful Beige) for a Schwinn Sting Ray bicycle. Which is why we have some very retro skate stuff back in the warehouse someplace, if the boss didn't give it away to his daughter's skate punk boyfriend.
SoloSurfer, the successful shop I was describing has never stocked skateboards. However the shop at the top of my street in urban Melbourne stocks just the cruiser type of skateboard. However you were in the popsicle business? Cruisers tend to be sold fully assembled as a package and tend to get treated as an alternative passtime or transport. But the popsicle riders are generally more young, serious and skilled and want various deck brands with different graphics, wheel and truck brands - you were able to manage this situation?
Everything,... and I mean EVERYTHING!!!! that Doc and Solo have said here is 100% true and,... just plain,... THE FACTS!! in owning a surfshop.
I met my wife when I came up to surf Manasquan Inlet over 5 years ago. We started a shop together shortley after. Three years in a crapy location,.... and now,... a full year in a high visible great location.
I am not even going to try and write how, whats, goods & or bads of how we are doing. Dont have to. Go back and read every single one of Doc and Solo threads!!!
I always skateboarded and surfed. I think the two used to be intertwined. Now they are pretty much separate and I would say to some degree skateboarding has been the tail that wagged the dog of surfing from where it came. I got into the popsicle by accident, but learned how lucrative it was. You talk about a business completely sold out to the power of branding it’s skateboarding. Like surfboards, I still do business with one of the last U.S. manufactures of skateboards. Same folks that make Vision. They do some Asian manufacture because price point now rules, but their U.S. made stuff has the best quality. The worst thing about that side of the industry is black market decks and even the companies themselves selling stuff on Ebay slightly over what it cost them to make it. Makes it really hard for a retailer today to make money on decks. I still sold quite a few of them, but the average profit per deck was probably like $10.00. You can build a loyal following with that crowd, but they are frustrating to work with because their lives exist completely on brand and cool, so you literally must carry all of the main brands or you are sunk. You will still sell more mini labels, but you have to have the brands in that business. That is not so if your smart and in the right location for the surf side of it. If you pay low enough rent and have a good deal worked out with your shaper you can exist selling just surfboards, Tees and related gear. If all the core shops would rid themselves of the ridiculous big name garbage in mass it would get back to where it should have stayed to begin with. The problem is they believed the companies when they promised to keep it out of department stores. Mistake. Now it’s all to the last rag just watered down garbage and a huge waste of time. It’s like tossing money in a fire pit and lighting the match.
The thing to keep in mind is you simply cannot be core and sell non core big name surf goods. I don’t care what anyone says. By core, I mean core as a shop. You are either a name chasing, trend following shop or you create your own path. You cannot create your own path when you are a slave to a bunch of scoundrels and their representatives who are constantly threatening you with opening new accounts if you don’t order more. Imagine if Quickbongcom had remained core and from their very beginning started their own stores dedicated to real surfers instead of spreading surfer avatar world to the masses in the central U.S. and the world? Imagine if they had from the beginning decided they wanted to provide the highest possible quality surfboards, and gave proper surfboard advice to those wanting to learn to surf. Imagine if they had attempted from the very beginning to have the clothing made at the highest level in the countries in which they operated and sold that lasting and truly functional quality and a true common sense and care for their customers that actually bought their product? Imagine their business model was not geared towards the sole goal of enriching the owners and creating their own little mini avatar kingdom of new followers but instead tried to cultivate the sport into a good direction rather than attempting to create some false identity for those with no identity of their own?
The surfing and skating world we now see would be a different place. Some of the big boys got part of it right in the beginning, but most have completely sold out to fashion over function years ago.
[quote="$1"]
I always skateboarded and surfed. I think the two used to be intertwined. Now they are pretty much separate and I would say to some degree skateboarding has been the tail that wagged the dog of surfing from where it came.
[/quote]
Me, I stopped with skateboards a long, long time ago, before urethane wheels came out. And... I guess I'm living proof of one cliche: never, ever get into a line you don't understand. As evidenced by the old-line, barely into Urethane Wheels stuff still in the boss' garage someplace.
[quote="$1"]
I got into the popsicle by accident, but learned how lucrative it was. You talk about a business completely sold out to the power of branding it's skateboarding.
[/quote]
Therin lies the fun of skateboards.... a lot of them (skateboarders) never saw the ocean, might take up surfing someday, but they all read the magazines ( simple words, lots of pictures) and can recite quotations from the videos. All they know is the branding and hype.
[quote="$1"]
Like surfboards, I still do business with one of the last U.S. manufactures of skateboards. Same folks that make Vision. They do some Asian manufacture because price point now rules, but their U.S. made stuff has the best quality. The worst thing about that side of the industry is black market decks and even the companies themselves selling stuff on Ebay slightly over what it cost them to make it. Makes it really hard for a retailer today to make money on decks. I still sold quite a few of them, but the average profit per deck was probably like $10.00. You can build a loyal following with that crowd, but they are frustrating to work with because their lives exist completely on brand and cool, so you literally must carry all of the main brands or you are sunk. You will still sell more mini labels, but you have to have the brands in that business. That is not so if your smart and in the right location for the surf side of it.
[/quote]
It's a lot like the bodyboard business. Accessories, good, a few low-end items for impulse buyers, fine. But online and department/discount stores will kill ya. Like Amazon, things you don't have to try on are things you don't need a storefront to sell.
[quote="$1"]
If you pay low enough rent and have a good deal worked out with your shaper you can exist selling just surfboards, Tees and related gear.
[/quote]
True, in fact I think that's the only way to make money with a surf store these days. You are either selling things that are yours alone ( the tees, hats and what have you), impulse buys ( stickers, etc, cheap but very good markup), stuff nobody wants to wait for ( wetsuit boots, for instance) or things that the customer needs to see and/or try on such as custom boards and wetsuits....though once somebody has tried on a wetsuit they may well wait and buy it online without a pretty good discount from keystone.
[quote="$1"]
If all the core shops would rid themselves of the ridiculous big name garbage in mass it would get back to where it should have stayed to begin with. The problem is they believed the companies when they promised to keep it out of department stores. Mistake. Now it's all to the last rag just watered down garbage and a huge waste of time. It's like tossing money in a fire pit and lighting the match.
[/quote]
Have a look at any discounter, like ( here) TJ Maax, or Sierra Trading Post, and you find 'em all.
[quote="$1"]
The thing to keep in mind is you simply cannot be core and sell non core big name surf goods. I don't care what anyone says. By core, I mean core as a shop. You are either a name chasing, trend following shop or you create your own path. You cannot create your own path when you are a slave to a bunch of scoundrels and their representatives who are constantly threatening you with opening new accounts if you don't order more.
[/quote]
And doing it anyways.
Look, you have to essentially bribe the name brand to keep exclusive to you, outbuy ( not outsell, necessarily) and you can't do more than a department store chain, especially if they are snapping up the end-of-season deals when the Big Name is looking for cash so they can do their deals with Hrundi V. Bakshi someplace on the pacific rim to make next year's goods.
[quote="$1"]
Imagine if Quickbongcom had remained core and from their very beginning started their own stores dedicated to real surfers instead of spreading surfer avatar world to the masses in the central U.S. and the world? Imagine if they had from the beginning decided they wanted to provide the highest possible quality surfboards, and gave proper surfboard advice to those wanting to learn to surf. Imagine if they had attempted from the very beginning to have the clothing made at the highest level in the countries in which they operated and sold that lasting and truly functional quality and a true common sense and care for their customers that actually bought their product?
[/quote]
Which, alas, is a lot less likely than winning the lottery. Why?
[quote="$1"]
Imagine their business model was not geared towards the sole goal of enriching the owners and creating their own little mini avatar kingdom of new followers but instead tried to cultivate the sport into a good direction rather than attempting to create some false identity for those with no identity of their own?
[/quote]
Heh- I kinda blame Frankie and Annette and all those damn Beach Blanket movies. You have it nailed there, "create(ing) some false identity for those with no identity of their own".... it's what the industry is all about.
[quote="$1"]
The surfing and skating world we now see would be a different place. Some of the big boys got part of it right in the beginning, but most have completely sold out to fashion over function years ago.
[/quote]
I look at, for instance, Patagonia, which used to make some very good stuff and has become a mail order high priced outfit selling to anybody who wants to look sorta crunchy green and sorta with it.
Oh, and.... blast from the past, so Solo and I don't have to write too much of this all over again: http://www2.swaylocks.com/node/1007999
doc...
cheers for your reply SoloSurfer.
what the modern expert skateboarder can do nowadays is absolutely incredible and far removed from the surf style roots. There is no reason why it should be related anymore than say snowboarding is to surfing.
thats what I was wondering, just out of curiosity. I am very impressed coz of this statement:
thats exactly what I was thinking. How could you possibly manage the popsicle brands without turning into a full-on skateshop. Silicon Valley is I think the skate capital of the world along with Sacramento aka Sactown. But I think the local skateshops had difficulty competing with big store Zumiez who could stock it all. There are so many brands and within one brand there are a number of signature models/graphics which individuals want to choose from. You mention Vision, but no-one wants Vision, I never saw one in a skatepark, the only person who wants Vision is some old guy who wants to reminisce on lost youth. The serious older skaters want popsicles like Black Label - that brand was popular with some of the older skaters I used to skate with in California. But as you said its all about branding and Black Label was functionally no different from what I ended up on - a Chocolate brand skateboard.
However I do take a much more forgiving attitude to it all than yourself and Doc! Yes I think there is more emphasis on branding in the skate world than the surf world - this is largely coz it is physically a homogenous product - there is no concept of some small-time local custom shaper. However I would say there is far less hype than with surfing due to the homogenous nature of the product. The hi-tech decks never got anywhere - they don’t help. I’ve never seen a Libtech in a skatepark and I’ve seen just one carbon Revdeck - belonged to some kid who probably didn’t know what carbon fibre was - I’ve no idea why he was on such an expensive thing. Some of the videos are crass, but some of them are really entertaining Spike Jonze - Wikipedia - “Yeah Right” is a must see. “Krooked Chronicles” great too.
So you profited from the mini-labels - you mean obscure labels? My second popscicle was a mini-label - Scum Skates. My first board was a shop board value package deal - fully assembled with the shop logo on a slightly spongy feeling deck - not that it made any difference to my crappy skateboard abilities. I’m curious which Vision related company you were you referring to? The 12 year old doesn’t care about politics, they want Birdhouse and Bam. The 20 something and older knows that much of the stuff comes out of NHS, but they don’t consider it an issue. Nevertheless some of the big labels are founded by contemporary superstar skateboarders.
this is an informative site - it even has a link to how to run a skateshop in there somewhere. I stumbled across it a few years ago in my desparate quest to learn how to ollie.
Mr. J,
I know skate really well and you speak the truth…though we slightly disagree on a few unimportant issues with it. One of my old shops was almost 5000 square feet. Half of it or more was dedicated to skateboarding. Kind of killed the surf part of my business, but I was getting good margins because I bought and sold lot’s of my own brand and non branded hard good. The decks…had to sell em all or get out. Element, Word industries, Zero, Chocolate, Foundation, and New deal along with the typical Birdhouse and Habitat were popular at that time. NHS. Good outfit. Been at it a long time. They do good with both Surf and skate.
The skate companies will sell you out just as quick as the surf companies and the fact that they are started by ex pros makes it worse sometimes as they stick by their " bros " at the expense of good business sometimes. It’s still a boy’s club like the surf industry…though way more honest about it.
Rodney Mullens to me is one of the greatest skaters that ever walked the planet. Would much rather watch him than Hawk.
This is all I do in the way of skate now and I don’t even mess with hardware. It’s more a benefit to my customers, many of which skate and surf.
http://revolutionsurfer.com/products.php?action=viewcat&catid=13
Had one local shop want to carry them because he liked the logo. Crap cost me a bit to get registered though.
Nice post Mr. J sounds like you know a bit about it also.
Opening a surf shop is nothing I have ever considered doing, but this thread really makes an interesting read for me, regardless. Thanks to all who have contributed.
SoloSurfer, yes I’ve seen many of the decks you mention in the parks and thats just some of them - there is also Plan B, Alien Workshop, Girl, Flip … and the list goes on. The popsicle world looks to me to be a harder market to navigate than the surfboard brands.
I just saw what was going on around me (circa 2005 - 2008), I had no inside knowledge of the cut-throat nature of business so when I saw that many of the labels were founded by a pro I thought well why shouldn’t a pro try and make a bit of money from their skills, I doubt if it turned him into a millionaire and with all popscicles being functionally alike the only way for them to present their product to the market was branding. From what you describe it sounds a rough world.
yes Mullen is incredible for longevity, he made the move from old school
freestyle to new school street and combines them. No one else has achieved that at his level.
My wife teaches marketing in a Thai university and she knows that marketing and branding is all about trying to present a product as having more value than it physically has. She says the cosmetic products are particularly bad, but she happily teaches it coz she wants Thai business to get ahead and thats what companies have to do to survive coz everyone else is doing it. Even though she knows its all crap that doesn’t stop her from wanting brand name products! This is the world we live in, may as well enjoy it. However she tells me marketing skills is not business skills and she doesn’t have any business skills. I have no business skills either so I just watch with interest. Business skills is the ability to take market risk?
I took a look at your product, you have it covered - the mini size for youngster, the narrower sizes for those who can flip and the wider sizes for older tastes. Some of those decks need different size trucks, and the trucks come in various brands, so I can see why managing the hardware can get hard too.
[img_assist|nid=1049933|title=Revolution Skates|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=640|height=149]