no disrespect meant to anyone on this thread, as you guys have been around a lot longer than me…
but it sounds like you’re working way too hard for a simple step. I personally find that the best way to get a good gloss is to do it ASAp after sanding. No extra handling, no BS, just sand it with 60 grit, re-tape my racks with sticky side down, blow it off, tape laps, re-wash the brush in clean acetone, and dry it, then shoot the gloss, bottom 1st…
I rarely get zits this way, and they come out FLAT. I know that pinlines and all that can add time, but the sooner the board is glossed the less hassle I have…and my glossing room is my glassing room, and is not exactly dust free
Pretty much what I do also Royal. The more time they sit the more time for problems to arise. The only difference, if I understood your steps correctly, was that I tape my racks sticky side up to make sure the board won’t slide off them as I often use a lot of brush pressure to move the resin around and get it as thin as possible.
yes bill, i agree with everything you said before. And while I don’t want to sound superior to anyone, as I am just a young guy in terms of time. But, i don’t see any reason for extra steps. Cleanliness is the key, as you said. Less of everything!
Like you said, in a production environment, it goes straight from the sander to the glosser, no extra steps. One thing some guys do is never touch the board with bare hands after sanding(or even shaping it.) Use butchers paper, or clear plastic gloves, and you can prevent a lot of headaches down the line, very cheaply…
I used to tape my stands sticky side up, but figured out how to do that less, maybe only one “tab”. I use pretty heavy pressure at 1st, but somehow the board doesn’t move that much. Could be the 60 grit sanding… Once the gloss has cured, and I’m doing the other side, I reverse my tape since any glue residue will be sanded off.
Like has been said, we’re all going to do things a little differently, and if washing boards helps some guys, so be it. It seems like an unnecessary step, that may cause problems later, but that’s just me.
I have nothing but respect for you and Kokua, so hope it doesn’t come across that way…
another thing is that the finer the grade of sandpaper used to sand the hotcoat, the more the resin will move around while curing. Coarser is better IMHO…
I have never found there to be a significant difference in final sanding grit and the quality of the gloss coats or in particular, “the cling” of the resin to the board. I have heard endless theories about the size and direction of sanding scratches and how they lead to various flow patterns of the gloss resin. The surfboard building culture is just thick with these kinds of theories and speculations in all facets and stages of the construction processes. And pretty much the same thing exists regarding all the theories and formulas for how boards work in the water.
Probably upwards of 90% of this stuff is just fun or particularly comforting to the builders and makes us feel we are doing something significant or different. It is nice to know (or believe) that we have some special techniques or secret understandings of things, that then makes our processes or boards better. This is why it is often very difficult for backyard builders to go to work for high production facilities. The production manager of those facilities will have to strip off all these odd and unnecessary steps from the workers system (and mind) so he can be productive, but it is exactly all these quirky things that have made the guy “happy” to be making surfboards. He will quickly write off the manager as a supreme jerk and want to go back to his little back yard cave where he can be supreme ruler of all things.
Sanding only with 60 grit I suppose is fine. But… and I am sure you know this… when sanding with the goal of doing color work on the hotcoat, a much finer grit will be required. Remember that there are always a lot of new eyes on Swaylocks who without this clarification, would be asking in a few days after sanding with 60 grit, why their pinlines were coming out all fuzzy.
Personally I like to finish all boards to be glossed out to a minimum of 100 or 150 grit. It is much easier to see and feel the boards final shape and insure that the glass job conforms properly to the original intended shape. Not to mention catching any small divots or hacks from the edges of the sanding pad etc.
Areas where color work is needed, I prefer to sand down with 220 or 320 grit, depending on the color work material I am going to use.
Since you say you only sand with 60 grit. Then how do you sand your rails? By machine or by hand? I prefer to sand the whole board via machine which requires finer grits, softer pads and slower RPMs being used to do the rails. Of course a small amount of hand sanding on the rails it still required for a final tuning though when sanding in production, many boards can be done without any hand sanding, depending on their shape.
I presume you must be hand sanding the rails if your only using 60 grit?
…well BB, only to say that in the last 25 years several Hawaiian boards have been arrived to my wshop and Im not very impressed for the glass work quality (all PU/poly)…
included top names ( glassed in Hawaii)
none of your boards.
–also, many Hawaiian shapers and brands are, in my opinion, doing bad work for themselves left the machine and then crew in Bali built their boards
real bad quality (several appearing in my wshop in the last 3 years) but with the right sticker…not good for those shapers in the next years.
I know what you mean reverb. The surfboard industry in Hawaii is very transient and as such tons of guys flow in and out of here working short term at various locations, mostly all under the table in small backyard shops. While this can be pretty energetic, it doesn’t contribute to long term employment economics or the development of well funded and well managed glassing facilities. Consequentially, the quality of glassing coming out of the North Shore ranges wildly from absolutely flawless to total crap. And any of these boards can easily have been shaped by top name shapers, stickers included or more likely whacked out on a machine and finished by the cheapest ghost shaper to be found. In fact, the boards that are likely to have filtered back to various parts of the world, from the better surfers visiting here, are probably ones that are lower on the quality scale due to the customers desire for cheap team pricing and bro deal, rush to get it done. Very few boards are sold retail in surfshops here compared to how many come directly out of the factory into customers hands. And when it doesn’t have to pass the quality standards for showroom display, it only has to work good… and sometimes not even that, if it has a cool brand name and sticker! So don’t judge the quality here by the few boards that drift back there. They probably aren’t representative of the skill of the good craftsmen here. There just isn’t the same kind of formal industry here that exists elsewhere.
hey BB< and in a humble way thanks for being so engaging…
right, well, 60 grit is my sanding grit, period. If i need/want/ordered pinlines, then like you said, higher grit is needed. But, I will only sand the laps, or where the pins are going. There is no other way of getting the pinlines clean without a smooth surface. I don’t believe for a second that the grit makes that much difference in the actual gloss. I was only offering it up for debate. However, for the sake of the reader… if they can’t spend the time to figure that out on their own, no amount of cuddling will cure their ills…you wouldn’t varnish a boat sanded with 60 grit, right?
experience and common sense is getting lost in the sake of being PC
I always hand sand my rails. If for no other reason, it allows me to make sure they are the way I want them. I used to machine them with 180, but still found they had ridges. So, for me, hand sanding with 60 then maybe higher grits, depending on color, or other options. It may be old fashioned, and take longer, but I’m a hands on kinda guy. Ed Hagen used to make me hand sand rails after he machined them, with Randy Wong over my shoulder, so maybe it is engrained… who knows. It just seems right for me…
as you have said, it starts at the begining, and if you screwed it then, you’re always chasing yourself.
I understand your point and agree, but these virtual communities span a great spectrum of people, personalities and experience levels. I realize I sound like an “old guy” when I say that something has happened in America and people today just don’t have the same kinds of common sense that was, in times past, born from a lot of hands on experience doing things. Therefore, a lot more time has to be devoted to explaining and answering questions. Heck most kids don’t even fix their own flat tires on their bikes. And they don’t have to remember to turn of the lights or radio in the car so the battery won’t go dead. Much of the burdens in life that trained our brains to think sharp, are now removed through automation or wealth. And we have gotten a bit soft in the head because of it. Very few young people today have any experience at all with any kind of manufacturing. If they do it was because they saw it done on TV!
I don’t think it is a Politically Correct thing, just a Polite thing. I know well how exasperating it can be to have to explain what seems like it should be obvious, but the world has changed and hours of watching MTV instead of “How Things Are Made” means somewhere down the line the MTV watchers are going to be caught like a deer in the headlights, not knowing how things work or how they fit together. And they won’t be able to extrapolate out solutions to problems from a solid data base of experience and understanding of materials, tools, science and mechanics… Mostly cause their data base, will be filled with visions of Linsey Lohan and Paris Hilton’s titillating antics.
So Swaylocks is just a reflection of todays world and sometimes the questions will be silly or flat out stupid but if everyone in the virtual community is polite and helpful it grows from the bottom up. That is the value of a virtual community, the zillions of guys who don’t know stuff, can ask the few who do. Grass roots all the way! As long as this happens without drama or insult the community is a fun place where people can live and play without fear of harassment or embarrassment. And yes… some will try to varnish over 60 grit, and others will politely steer them toward a better way.
I agree. Even after machine sanding the rails I always hand sand them to “feel” they are right.
Howzit bill, As for the rust, all I can say is good luck since on Kauai it's called cancer and I have ground it off,used Ospho and every other chemical that swears will keep it from coming back with no luck. I can remember snading a small spot one time and as I got to the metal there were spider web rust lines runnng in every direction. And after that I wuld just let it do it's thng then fill the hole with spray foam and bondo over that. Anoher thing is I only bought 1 new truckin over 40 years in hi and when it rusted even though it was washed and waxed every month or 2 I just gave up and started buying prerusted cars for a lot less money and when then got to bad it was off the the junk yard. As for the glossing, it's up to the person doing the work to do it however they choose and I just feel that we should let builders know all their choices but not try to make them do it my way but let them know why we choose to do it the way we do so I have no problems with what ever choice you or any other builder decides to use. I do agree with you about the sandpaper grit and I have always sanded to be glossed boards with 100 grit and 220 where the pin lines go. Living in Az has been different for sure, but since I can't surf again yet and do not want to play with cancer causing chemicals again I have gotten into things I probably would never have if I stayed in Hawaii, my biggest concern is the cold winters but I can alway travel to a warm place if it gets that bad. There is always the possibility I can disolve my assets and return to Hawaii since I have businesses here that my brother has run for almost 20 years and just sent me a monthly check. I hope that you have a good year this year since I know that the last couple of years have not been the best in Hawaii and read just the other day that tourism in Hi had increased by about 12% over last summer and may the surfboard buyers buy many Barnfield boards this year. If you know my good friend Terry Thompson and his wife Sarah who own Kua Aina tell them Aloha from Mike Williams, we have been friends since before they came to Oahu and they were there for me when I was gong through my cancer and radiation thing on Oahu. They would come get me on the weekends and I would stay with them at their house on the hill. Aloha.Kokua
Kokua… Your gonna be fine in Arizona. My brother lives there up in Anthem. There is tons of things to do there. Enjoy the change. Get Greg Loehr to bring you along on some of his travels around the area.
Your doing the right thing staying away from the chemicals. There is a powerful seduction in surfboard making that is hard to step away from. Your on the right track. I will say hello to the Thompson’s for you, if I see them. Get well my friend.
Howzit bill, I lived here for a while back in 68 and know Az pretty good and it is a great state in a lot of ways and also has some very beautiful areas that will blow you away. Unfortuneatly Greg lives in Tucson which is over 300 miles away and am not sure when I will be in that part of he state but will get there one of these days. I know what you mean about the seduction of board building since I have been around resin for over 50 years. The smell of resin is like a drug addiction and I have already been approached about doing boat repairs and another person wanted me to make SUP boards since they are a big thing on the lake. One thing I really miss is the humidity and I feel like I am drying out, but I am going to buy humidifier and hope it helps. Take care and have a great year. Aloha,Kokua
Always want to learn more…what is SA? I have sytrene. If I was mixing a gloss coat with 16oz of resin…how much ( in cc’s) SA and Sytrene should I use to cut it?
Howzit gallagher,Think %'s and add about 10% styrene to your gloss resin andabout 5% Surfacing Agent, It wil thin out the resin quite a bit but it will make the resin flow out real smooth which makes for less sanding and starting with a higher grit like 320 on the bottom and 400 on the rails and deck and that is dry sanding. As for the catalyst amount, for 16oz I would say no morethan 2cc's and that is with reichold glossing resin which kicks faster than the other brand(brain dead on the name ) Hope this helps. Aloha,Kokua
So I need to sand down the line where the top and bottom gloss coat meet. If I sand them, do I need to polish it or will all of the colors pop and it will not look sanded? It’s my first board and I don’t know why to do. Thx
