You asked for my comments on boards like Ace’s (nice board by the way Ace) and the use of quads on guns.
I have been shaping a lot of quad guns lately and I have to agree that by going with a quad I have been able to put more curve in the tails and have also widened the boards to give them more paddle power. As part of all this I have also been pulling the wide points further back on the boards to enhance the curve through the cockpit area, this makes them lot easier to manage and minimizes the amount of moving around you need to adjust the board.
Because of the fin setup I have found that I have been able to put MORE rocker in the tail to help them turn even better especially given the positioning I use for the quads. I actually have two 10-3 guns that I have been working on that follow this line of reasoning, the first one has the following dimensions - 10’ 3" x 11 7/8" x 22 1/2" x 12 1/2"x 3 1/2" (this one is for use at Ocean Beach) and the other is 10’ 3" x 11 1/4" x 22 1/4" x 12 1/4" x 3 3/8" (this one is for Sunset Beach on the North Shore). Both of these boards have what would probably be considered very radical bottoms for a gun with a strong single concave running into very strong bowled double-barrel concaves in to a V through the tail. The double concaves have the deepest points pushed out closer to the rail and are positioned to coincide with the placement of the quads to help channel water onto the fins. Our experience has been that by using quads we can get away with more extreme boards than one would typically consider normal for a gun!
I have been building guns like this for the last few years and they have been working really well. All of these changes allow them to be a lot more versatile. I personally have a 9-7 like this and the board is fun to ride even in small surf as it is super responsive and is a paddling machine, super easy to catch waves. My wave count went up dramatically with this board, and the most amazing thing is that it surfs like it is a foot shorter than its length, unreal!
The fins on all of these boards are clustered close together (although further apart than my shorter boards) and are very close to the rail (1" in from the rail), the fins are a 4.75" in the front and a 4.00" in the back, with the front template one of my more normal looking templates and the back fin is my H2 design (looks like a hammer sort of). On the more recent guns all of the fins have been G10 fins that I have hand foiled myself, these do not get sprayed instead they are hand polished so that you can see the grain of the cloth, makes them look like some sort of exotic wood or bone. Lot of work but really fun to make. Once I get one of these boards back from the laminator I can post some pictures of the whole setup. I have attached a JPEG of the design drawing for the narrower version of these two 10-3 boards, hopefully people can see it.
The bigger ones all have bamboo deck patches to give them some extra strength and to keep the weight under control, but they still have a decent weight as my feeling is that light is not good in a gun especially when the wind gets up.
Nice reply Robin. I also felt that Quads allowed wider tails to be controlled better. Especially with how they have worked on my FAT STUBBIE boards. I have had excellent edge control on waves that should have sent me spinning. Wider tails will help catch waves easier. I have incorporated concave thru vee in this one also another break from “tradition”. I still tried to keep a “proven” rail shape thru out the outline I did not want to loose control or have a rail that was too fine in bumpy conditions. I have been trying to get the “kid” to realize that this type of board should work in smaller waves, not as a everyday board but to get used to it. Some of my best big wave boards, when I was into that stuff, would work pretty good in down the line smaller waves. I have had really good results with the fin clusters closer together. Really liked the “cockpit” description.
Hand Shaper, interesting response. A lot of good information and quite generous. Thanks Heaps!
ps. I’ve got a feeling Chrisp is a real up and comer in shaping. He’s got good insight and questions and is interested in design. Keep going and we’ll all be learning from him.
Some years back Jeff Grygera made me a couple of boards. he had also made a couple of guns. 9'6' and another 9'0" We took them out at Cardiff on a wind blown day of head high surf. It was simply an exercise to get a feel for the board.
That was excellent advice you gave Ace. Hope the young lad has the sense to listen to someone that has been there.
1979 I had returned to USA after rambling around So America. Longboards were dead and nobody was really into guns around here. I had the “good fortune” to start working for Mike Eaton. We were making longboards when hardly anyone else was and the other thing I wanted to learn was guns. Eaton made some pretty good ones. So many of the things that made a gun work are part of what makes an everyday board work. They, guns, are really just surfboards made to do the purist type of surfing. Take off, drop, turn and stay on, Not a lot of room for tricks. I have always liked the “lines” of a good clean gun. Flowing rocker outline rail shapes and elongated bottom contours. SEXY and pure function. There has been a renewed interest in big wave surfing and guns have been going thru transformation as guys are trying to push big wave limits. I was always told to test a design make it big and the flaws will show up big. Big guns on big waves are a true test of design theory and SKILL.
Ace all those attributes you named are evident in your shapes. When I said that you have the long templates down I really meant it. The Glider you made is about as good as I’ve seen. I hate parallel rails. Gotta have that continuous curve and yours are real beauts. Keep shaping.
ps. I want to duplicate your glider. I’ve always from the beginning been drawing outlines and staring at them from all angles. It aint easy what you do.
Howzit ace, I know both Dick and Rick, and Rick only put that sticker on the boards he shaped and he was one of Dick's ghosts. Rick used the outer island underground lam on boards he only glassed and it was around the leash plugs. The only reason he may have used that lam could be if Dick told him to or he was out of the under ground lams. Can we get a date on when the board was built because Rick lost his shop many years ago. I have known Rick since he moved to Kauai and worked for Jeff Walba who owned the shop then Rick took it over. Then he expanded and shaped and glassed for years til he lost it all or the Smith's kicked him out, can't remember which. Last thing I heard was he was helping John Delaney in his glass shop and John glasses some of Dick's boards. Rick taught John how to glass and now he has the Outer Island Underground lams on his boards. Dick has at least 3 ghost shapers on Kauai alone. Aloha,Kokua
NIce board by the way. What type of rails did you shape on that bad boy?
Reason I'm asking is Cause I have an old 70's Lance Collins Semi gun type board, its alot shorter, but in bigger waves it seems a little hard to get my rail to sit/bury to hold my line. The rails on mine are super hard down rails. If I make myself a bigger wave board this winter, I think I might go with the apex low, but a little softer and tucked under edge. Medium volume rails, flat deck for max. paddling power. Am i going down te right track here?
I have been told the story about the Brewer from the owner/user. He is one of my “special” friends. I have to be in the mood, the location has to be right , he has to be focused on the original question…You probably knew him…I will get to the bottom of it.
Rail shape. I like thicker boards. I do not like thick boxey flat deck hard edged rails. Some do some don’t. Out on the very edge of my rails they become “normal” and fit in your hand just right. I like it when I have the surfer in the room when I shape the board because I can have them try them on for fit. Especially where you would be holding on when going under a wave. The rail shape goes through a few transitions from nose to tail.
Here is one of MY shaping guidelines. I visualize a Football as I go from end to end on these types of shapes. Good luck welcome to my world.
3. Yes that is soundboard. I have been using it in all my rooms for years. It really deadens the echo and whine. I used to paint it but have just been using it au natural for awhile. I think the paint seals the sound deadening qualities. Plus I find the brown color quit soothing.
Thanks for the reply. Just wondered if the dust clings to it and is hard to control. It’s a great idea. Ever hear about resilient channel? Used in sound proofing and drywall. You make a good point about it fitting the hand. All my boards have what I call “corkscrew” rails a la S. Frye. They start out hard in the tail and gradually turn up as they get to the nose. I prefer a belly in the nose for easy entry.
"I've had a few Chapman guns, and I have taken the templates off of a few or them. Owl use a much fuller and thicker template than standard guns. He keeps his deck volume all the way out to the rails, then does a turn down rail. The deck volume will be 3 inches + all the way out to the break in the deck rail.........No deck dome on his boards. Also he makes a beak nose over the thin foiled modern guns. His Sunset guns have a slightly fuller outlike than a standard gun. 22.5 or 23 inch width is not uncommon, and you won't see many 18.5 0r 19 inch guns in his designs."
thanks for your time and input Ace, Robin, and others...
i stole the above quote from Resinhead from THIS thread but it seems to apply here... seems like there's more than one way to skin a cat regarding rails. the standard "tradeoffs" apply to guns too? ie. volume vs. control in the rails... seems like a fine line to walk. and, obviously, the better board designers are better at walking the tightrope. what you mention Ace about having the surfer in the room to help dial in the rails makes great sense. custom, custom, custom...
what about about tucked edge? sharp in the back to tucked in the middle to round in the front like the "standard" shortboard? tucked throughout? sharp in the back tucked to the front? ...
i'm inclined to think that: IF the shaper has nailed down the correct rail volume, a tucked/sharp rail, nose to tail, could work? too much volume and the board would be tough to hold over in a turn, too little and it would be "catchy"??? ha ha, am i close? or way off?
I'd thinks that "catchy" rails would be somewhat desired in bigger surf. If you have somewhat of a straight outline, and pretty straight rail line ( from the part in that water atleast), then i'd think that you could use this catchy factor to your advantage. Crazy good hold, but using the straightness to gain momentum if a fast section is aproaching. I know that back in the day, flat decks, and down hard rails were the "norm," along with beaked noses, and I totally get that. more volume gets you into bigger waves easier. I just feel that those flat decks with down rails are a bit difficult to surf in bigwaves, even if they have a substantial amount of Vee. It seems superhard to get on my rail and stay there. Beak nose are sick though, because I feel as if you have alot more foam under your chest making paddling easier.
Softer rails, i'd think would hold much better, maybe a little less volume to keep that rail sitting in the water on a super fast bottom turn. Am I mising something here? I mean its not like you need hard, full rails for "extra speed" on a 20+ ft wave.
Can someone explain how I could compensate for a fuller deck, down railed, 70's style gun in terms of rocker,foil, outline, and rail volume.
I think I'm gonna build a 7'6" semigun/ gun style build. not too long, but for some super juicy hollow reefs, because I want it to "fit" into the steepness of the wave. Deffinitly single fin, but i was gonna go with a full, slightly domed deck and meduim volume soft down rails. Any ideas
-Carl