I herd a rumor that Ice Nine bought Walkers formula, this really seems weird since they have been labeled a Bio Foam manufacturer. Why would you start making TDI based blanks when you claim this on your website? ( MDI foams are much more environmentally favorable than traditional TDI-based foam. Ice-Nine presents two MDI-based polyurethane foams, CANE and ABLE) I mean didn’t someone just post a thread about how dangerous and poisonous TDI foams are. There is no way they would make TDI foam It has to be a rumor.
Think about it you have to make money as a business to keep the lights on. Ice Nine has the most modern foam factory in the world. They make MDI based blanks. More than 90% of the market wants TDI Foam. They tried to start out with good intentions however the main stream board builders haven’t supported it because their customers haven’t. So let’s not beat up Ice Nine. They will offer both MDI and TDI. We all have a choice which foam to use. They need to recover their cost. Believe me, they haven’t made a penny yet. On the other hand when California Enviromental Laws shut down the use of TDI they will already have a formula for MDI in place while the other companies scramble to develope a new MDI formula. None of this will matter as blanks produced with TDI will continue to be imported from Mexico, Argentina, Australia and China. Retailers want boards in the shop that stay white. It’s a hard sell when they turn yellow in the store. TDI is not going away anytime soon. The market demand is the indicator which foam is accepted. Besides MDI is not as friendly as you may think. Wear protection regardless of the type of material you use to make a surfboard.
We will have a formal announcement soon but I might as well address the rumors for the benefit of the Swaylocks’ community.
We are still steadfast in our belief that MDI is a more environmentally friendly choice of isocyanate for manufacturing foam (however in a fully cured blank there would be no isocyanate present whether MDI or TDI as it all would be reacted out and the end user would have a fully reacted polymer). The exposure issue is one that effects us here in the factory and we have been reluctant to deal with the increased safety requirements necessary to work safely with TDI. We also believe that MDI presents more performance potential, particularly in the area of flex and dent resistance, and believe it to be the future of polyurethane surfblanks.
Acceptance of our CANE foam is been strong with those shapers focused on the benefits of the ride or the dent resistence. The trade-off with our Cane formula is that more care needs to be taken in glassing. Many of the high-production board builders are less eager to switch from the tried and true traditional TDI formulations which they are confident in when producing in large volumes. Many of these customers have asked us to come up with a TDI variant and we had resisted this suggestion until recently.
A unique opportunity came up with the closing of Walker Foam. Harold came over to talk and we’re looking at his formula books and he’s looking at our state-of-the-art machinery and the rest is history. It has been a pleasure to work with Harold and to have the opportunity to tap his many years of experience in producing surfblanks (as well as just listen to him talk story).
The purpose of this experimental program is to make a foam specifically designed for a high production environment and for ease of shaping and glassing with the trade-off being there is lowered resistance to denting and/or less flex then with our MDI formulas. The purpose of our Cane formula was to make a shaper-friendly foam that incorporated the greater dent resistance and flex of MDI. Our Able formula was designed to show the potential for extreme flex in MDI with the trade-off being that it is not as shaper-friendly.
In each case our goal is a specific performance niche and to achieve that goal we work in as environmentally responsible a fashion as possible. In the case of Cane we could use a bio-polyol and MDI to achieve our goal, however, in the case of Able we had to use a traditional oil-based polyol and MDI. In the case of the new experimental foam we must use TDI as that is specifically what is being requested. In each case material handling will be done responsibly. As usual, all blanks will go through a post-curing oven cycle to eliminate any hazard of unreacted isocyanates in the finished blanks. We will continue to use machinery that limits waste and exposure in the factory.
It has always been our philosophy that there is no one foam that will be right for all purposes. The background of my team is in aerospace and medical plastics and manufacturing and our hope is that we can transfer some of what we learned in these fields into surfing in the form of a variety of foam cores with noticeably differing performance. We had hoped to do that without having to get into the TDI world but the market forces dictate otherwise and the providence of having Harold pay us a visit provided the solution.
One of the amazing things we are seeing is how similar so many of the industries formulas are. We had been able to piece together the Clark formula from the computer system we obtained from Gordon, and Harold not only had his original formulas but also his new one that had come from a well-known overseas supplier. They are all nearly identical. Funny to see how little the options have changed over the years. Most of the difference is in the processing so after coming to grips with the need to put out a TDI formulation we became excited to see what we could do to “supercharge” the old formulations by running them through our plant.
So after all that info, what you were saying is that you didn't have luck with the MDI so you are going to try TDI, that is all I needed to know.
thank you natas
no one did well with MDI, cause its not a good alternative (in my opinion)…also, did lonley tyrant ask anyone about walkers formula before buying it? it was the lowest quality foam on the market according to most people
what do other swaylockers think of harolds formula?
Lowest quality? No way. Jim and I thought it was the best and so did a lot of other shapers that I can’t speak for. The reason we like/ed the foam, before and after Clark closed, is the crispness of the foam, strength, resin bond, the way it took color, the way it looked without color, uniform density, shapability, and while some folks think it was heavy that’s why we used it for longboards and some midlengths. EPS for hp performance shapes Walker for the classics.
oh thankyou! A true longboard foam lives … love walkers sparckle like a sugarcube…sure its not a very good for shortboards even harold new that and he was working on that by producing a performance foam but time ran out!I would love to try walkers formula poured in a good mold and glued up a little straiter …will always be my favorite longboard foam where weight and flex dont play a major performance …not to mention the history none of you here would be where you are without harold and grubby…I hope it happens and im sure others do to its like loosing your favorite ice cream…what do you mean no more chocolate chip…gottogo good luck
Hopefully you can make the cell size smaller. Walker foams large cells may sand easy (which piecework shapers love), but it sucks resin and it’s a lousy substrate to paint.
At one point when Walker started testing new formulas for shortboards ater the Clark closer they made some good foam that was unreal. I made a few boards with it and yeilded the lightest shortboards after glassing. It shaped so smooth with no pukas or veins. However they did not maintain their new found success. They changed suppliers of the chemicals and the new found formula slipped through the cracks. With Ice Nine involed I’m sure they will figure it all out and get it dialed in.
…I had used MDI Elova foam extensively in longboards and some shortboards
definetively not so good and tight cell structure, weight like a TDI
but I found that that kind of “rubbery” thing the foam provides
is specially good for longboards
very lively rides
very nice
I did some called “small wave warrior” (9 - 9 2 egg and semieggs rails, slightly convex bottom, 1 fin–not so raked, thin tip, tapered to the tip, 60/40 foiled–, flat deck, very subtle hip, medium rocker all the way, 3x 4oz top, 1 4oz bottom,etc)thats perform superb
I second and third what natas and Atomized are saying. Walker sucked resin like eps and doesn’t paint much better. Another thing was the crooked stringers. Only shaped a couple and they all had problems. They did sand well though.
isnt it funny to watch the prejudgement…has anyone seen the foam yet, planed , sanded, painted, surfed it yet? or just blah blah based on what angry competitors say…natas…foamhawaii…who’s foam do you represent?
I have seen it stu brought by a few samples and the blanks were the lightest foam I have seen, nice tight cells . All you so called experts put shit down before you even see anything. Walker foam required a change in glassing technique to achieve a light finish weight and was achieved by the guys who took the time to listen . go back to using the sponge foam now thats good stuff.
All you so called experts put shit down before you even see anything. Walker foam required a change in glassing technique to achieve a light finish weight and was achieved by the guys who took the time to listen
A long time ago, probably 5 or six years before Grubby pulled the plug, when I was then working Channins. Harold Walker had stopped by to talk to Tony and I was introduced to him. The Walker blanks that I so far had painted where a pretty inferior surface to paint. I brought this up to Harold and his reply was “Don’t paint them.”
I know the folks at Ice9 don’t have that kind of attitude towards their customers. They’ve gone out of their way to get feedback on their foam, not only just from shapers, but from the rest of us in the manufacturing process.
I’m not in the business of retailing blanks to others, I just want quality foam to do my work on.
i “represented” walker foam for two years (and used it exclusivly for that period too)…i dont hate it, just think it was poorly made and whether it is poured in a good mold or not, the foam is still walker foam and has the issues stated above.