Ideal paddling and volume.

General Discussion
1

After reading the latest on the “your age, your board” thread. I’ve been compelled

to start this thread on some interesting findings about volume and paddling.

In the last season here there has been a trend with some of “the original” shortboarders

getting back into riding relatively short boards.

Most of these guys are in their 50’s to 60’s and basically, they are ripping and are stoked.

I know, this is crazy, but a while back we did some testing with volume/paddle.

One of the testers is a Rincon surfer (6’5" 235lb) who through middle-age started riding

progressively bigger boards. He’s a surf industry guy who is pretty fit and he told me

about his frustration with groms on wafer-chips out-paddling him on his 7’6" egg. I mentioned

how I was borrowing a grom’s board just for fun and it got me back out in the line up faster

than when I rode his board. He thought it was crazy, but then called back and ordered

a couple of 6’8"s.

A couple weeks later he called raving about, 1. the moves he was able to do again and

more importantly 2. the board paddled better! This made me think about all my aging friends

that I sent to their “surfing deaths” by making them what I’ll call “mid-flotation boards”.

Well, it turns out the Rincon surfer is longtime friends with Al Merrick, and Merrick mentioned

that he too was finding this out.

Basically, boards seem to paddle well when they are very floaty or, they are a bit sinky. Also, boards

with certain waterlines in the mid-float range paddle horribly, like they are taking weather to helm or

something. NOW, granted, this if for a FIT surfer, not the week-ender, injured or “softy”.

A couple of years ago, Velzyland was fun and everyone was ripping. Then Ben Aipa paddled out

on a 6’4" and started lighting the place up. It was like the whole line-up stopped surfing and watched

him send fire hose sprays everywhere. He said he was 60 years old.

Now I am wondering if this is partly why some of my older friends who are still fit are ripping again and are stoked?

2

Ive found also that thickness isnt everything.

My current board 6’3" 19.3 x 2.125 and really thin rails is thinner than anything ive ever ridden in my life and it paddles almost as good and catches waves better than my 7’0" and im 36 and 195lbs

Length width, entry and overall rocker play a role and seem to be just as important as thickness alone.

The only time I can feel the thickness or lack of is in the thick soup where the airated water magnifies the lack of float.

3

thanks very much for posting this thread George !

I look forward to hearing other’s findings on this .

And , thanks , J.Troy , for that comment about the soup , and lack of floatiness . I experienced this on 'popeye’s thin thruster today , and thought it was just me sucking as a thruster rider / paddler.

I would be interested to hear people’s take on nose and tail rockers in thin , smaller boards [thrusters] , and how they contribute to this whole sinking / floating / paddling thing [Pascal’s thruster has more nose rocker than ANY of my homemade shortboards , by the way]

cheers ,

ben

4

I suspect there is some kind of “moment arm” or lever-length consideration involved in addition to flotation and other mechanics. Perhaps putting the shoulder pivot even 1/4" further from the surface could have an effect? I suspect that as long as the board is minimally floating (neither nose nor tail submerged, and at the design attitude) template length, not additional floatation, is the deciding speed factor. By the displacement hull max speed formula (1.34 x square root of the waterline length), a 12’ board should have a hull speed limit of just over 4.6 mph, while a 6’ board would max out at just under 3.3 mph. That’s a significant difference, and my experience in paddling long distances over smooth water would tend to bear out that calculation. For a given speed that is less than hull maximum, it can take less power for a longer waterline length, all else equal (aspect ratio is one of the elements at play here). Paddling for a wave can be considerably different. I get the impression that in the early longboard era, most surfing was done at breaks where the sets were fairly predictable, uncrowded, and a surfer could easily anticipate the wave, position himself for it optimally, and paddle his board to a reasonably high speed to “match” the wave and take off early. The typical reality today is crowded conditions, and surfing in many venues (here on the right coast, for one) where a worthwhile wave is more likely to “pop up” suddenly. This put more of a premium on acceleration than maximum speed, and means that more often than not, the surfer needs to paddle over the lip in a late take off attempt, instead of matching the speed of the trough. It is also possible that short board riders might be able to get their boards up on plane in some circumstances when paddling for a wave, although I suspect that would be fairly rare. As another poster mentioned, rocker and other board characteristics are just as important as maximum speed, if not more so. I had a 9’6" once that had all-around down rails, medium-to-high tail rocker, and little nose rocker. I absolutely loved riding that board. It paddled pretty well in ideal conditions, too. However, it had the unfortunate habit of very easily catching a wave tail-first, if I tried to paddle out over the lip of a breaking wave and didn’t quite maintain the critical momentum (it was pretty nasty paddling into cold, wind blown chop, also). That has nothing directly to do with the ease of catching a wave, but it is an example of some of the other variables involved. Finally, there is the fatigue factor - the relative ease of duck diving a short board vs. paddling a long board through the soup and constantly accelerating it back to speed could easily make a big difference by the end of a long session, especially for an older surfer.

-Samiam

5

Hey George,

I had to read your post twice and I still think its crazy!

HA!

Seriously, maybe you can elaborate on this statement:

This made me think about all my aging friends

that I sent to their “surfing deaths” by making them what I’ll call “mid-flotation boards”.

What is a MFB?

As a reference point, my rule of thumb is a waterline just above (2-3 in) my bellybutton while sitting.

Another thing Ive noticed (quite dramatic) is how the final weight of the board affects float. A one pound diff makes a big diff.

Thoughts?

Cheers

6

i guess that’s why most “funboards” end up not really being all that fun in the long run.

The only one that seems to have mastered that range is Parmenter or maybe Riddle/Bojoquez(sp?) for a certain wave/style.

Like some said elsewhere… “death to funboards” the old mans demise

When you look at where “Y”, Dale S., and George G. ended up

you can see that only in surfing. size and stiffness really doesn’t matter at all.(like that one Chippy?)

Rocker, outline, foil (Concave/flat versus domed) and some tiimes air assisted are steering us to smaller pieces of foam under our feet. RPS Epoxy is helping to. But in the end like everyone is saying… IT’S ALL ABOUT THE SHAPE not the materials… I think we forget that sometimes out here especially swaylocksABP (After Bert’s Post versus pre Bert)

I think alot of guys here like Bert, Meecrafty, and others have tracked into the “thin is in” curve for sometime. But like the three sages above have added another component called flex into the equation…

Oh yea least we forget McCoy and Cheyne although young ones at the time were some of the first with the micro sized no-nose Zap.

gotta give props to them.

7

I’ve said for years that the worst-paddling boards are mid-size. You paddle a 10’ board with glide - momentum, smooth strokes, speed. You don’t paddle a sinker, you swim it. If you’re a competent swimmer, you’ll be able to really move a small board - its like swimming with a pfd on. But midsize? Too big to swim (and dive), too small to glide. No thanks.

8

There are aspects of surfcraft design which go beyond flex: hollow malleable shape, variable bouyancy distribution, high strength to weight ratio with weight measured in ounces rather than pounds.

The following is from an experienced surfer in the early stages of discovery (over 50 years young), learning there’s much more to wave riding than previously imagined:

"One cool thing I forgot to mention is that there were several guys out on 10+ foot boards, one 12’ at least and they were going so slow on the waves they caught it looked like slow motion. Really amazing.

I remember thinking while paddling out, “oh good, nice and slow. I’ll have lots of time to figure out position on the mat and when and where and how much to squeeze rail etc.”

Then when I took off on a wave, the same waves, I was immediately going so fast I was hanging on for dear life! Shocking speed. Mat was extracting juice from a different dimension I reckon…"

“The handling puts me in mind of what I’ve read about super sonic jet fighters-- the joy stick has only an inch or less of total movement in any direction. Less certainly is more!”

9

I know it is defying reason, but yesterday I was able to get waves easier on my

5’7" x 18-7/8" x 2-1/16" twin-keel fish than on some larger mid-range flotation

boards(I’m 168 lbs). Reading this thread I am realizing part of it is that I am able

to stay close to the energy and move freely through the line-up without getting

pounded. I am really relating to the “swimming the board” concept. I rely on this

fact in designing shortboards. Those surfers tend to be pretty fit/active in their

approach, using more of their body, maybe little kicks, pushing/pumping their chin

on the deck (I see quite a few pros do this when really trying hard to get a wave).

I have an 11’3" glider surf/paddle board that is unstoppable when it comes to paddle.

I am pretty ‘high and dry’ on that board. As Craftee is asking, so am I, "What is that

bad spot in volume?" I find it depends upon the individual. It seems to be a couple of

boards larger and larger than what is their “shortboard”. I have friends getting boards

at my age and they are figuring that more board will help their “wave count”. The next

board seems to be larger, for the same reason. I notice the complaint of not getting

waves still lingers, then the complacency sets in, and they seem to hit a rut.

With that said I make some “fun boards” that guys just rip on, and these boards tend

so be “souped-up” versions of the concept, lighter, less forgiving rails, maybe thinner, etc.

With my surf mat I also notice that getting out through heavier line-ups is much easier

when I let some of the air out of it. I plan to take my mat (along with my twin-keel)

on my trip in a couple of weeks with some testing in mind…

10
Quote:

Reading this thread I am realizing part of it is that I am able

to stay close to the energy and move freely through the line-up without getting

pounded. I am really relating to the “swimming the board” concept. I rely on this

fact in designing shortboards. Those surfers tend to be pretty fit/active in their

approach, using more of their body, maybe little kicks, pushing/pumping their chin

on the deck (I see quite a few pros do this when really trying hard to get a wave).

Trying to sneak a look here between phone calls and crap, read Benny’s swimming comment, came back and read this…gonna be for me another Swaylock’s Mind Expander…

I was/am a fairly early advocate of the mid-range fun board. There is huge common sense in the concept if you know what you are looking for and why. But as earlier posts in this thread illuminate, there are drawbacks. The paddling thing is a fairly big one. Part of that for me has turned out to be all the other people. You have a bunch of folks on longboards who can out paddle mid-range sizes, and shortboards who can duckdive anything…as a responsible person I make every effort not to blow the flow and sometimes this size board just winds up out “out of place” in contemporary lineups…too short to compete with longboard peaks and too long to safely bang rails in shorter environments. In the end I ride mine in the 3’-4’ foot surf range.

I never, never considered the short no-float boards in the context of “swimming them”…of being able to “move freely through the line-up without getting pounded.” My own conceptual blinders. I have gone to prone surfcraft or bodysurfing for that aspect. All the struggling to paddle them into waves, leg kicking…that wasn’t part of my earlier experiences and didn’t look graceful to me…in fact if anything , my brain processed that as “struggling” or “unnecessary expenditure of effort” which I put down to the equipment and as a drawback for my personal interests in waveriding.

Priceless consciousness expansion, eh? Contextual realignment. Everybody has earned their pay today.

11

I agree that certain small boards paddle a lot easier than mid size boards. I definitely noticed that last year when I bought a 6’4" for the first time after riding 7 footers (I’m 45) It paddled easier … But I didn’t catch as many waves. I think easier paddling is about the rails. Thin hard rails have much less drag than a thick round rail found on a mid range board.

12

I think bennys right on…I just noticed this too george…went smaller and thinner and ended up feeling like I catch more waves than ever and easier too. I luv the feel of my board acting as a hydrofoil underneath the water as I paddle. I find that I generate the most efficient paddling speed/effort ratio when my nose tip is just under the surface so as I stroke it creates steady air bubbles. Its kinda zen!!!

13

this is good stuff …

Ambrose , are you there ?

I would be very interested in reading your take on this ?

Also , Herb …

what are your thoughts on this , as a person who is I reckon a good paddler and positioner , reading between the lines on some of your earlier posts .

I guess for me the whole thing of switching to thruster , more modern , less floaty shapes, than the ‘boards’ I have made myself in the past , is

a challenge

curiousity

wanting to see how I REALLY paddle , and what my level of fitness is REALLY like , as my more floatier boards [eg: 9’ mal and 7’ single fin ] have become like ‘crutches’ to me , I was thinking recently .

I read your comment about “fit” not ‘injured’, George , and point taken …

the question is , as we get older , and perhaps our bodies stiffen up / spine compacts / shoulders weaken [?] …WILL consistently riding a less floaty / different paddling board cause me to get stronger [in my paddling / “swimming” technique of getting the board out to the lineup , and into waves] …or… will more damage / stress be done to my body because of the extra effort required .

And yes , I DO stretch every day , and try to cycle and paddle most every other day when there is not surf .

At the moment I feel like I am at a “design crossroads” …how much more fun / better will I surf if I persevere with less volume thrusters in my waves , versus will irreparable damage be slowly done to my body , shortening my surfing lifespan …

kokua / others in the 50 + age range who have shoulder / neck / back injuries [surfing related] …

I would be interested to hear your feedback on that , please ? [and I am not meaning it to be a “thread hijack” , by any means] …if anything , I see it as a feature / ? possible downside ? of less volume boards . I can relate to what Nels said , definately , about the “extra effort” / wrong equipment " mindset …but I can see , after your original ‘p.m’ to me , George [thanks mate] …that it may just be my mindset , and thinking needing to change …So , that is another reason why I want to experience riding a “modern” thruster again , for myself .

That said , part of me still thinks a mal would have been better in yesterday’s tiny , gutless , howling offshore waves . “Horses for courses” , still …ie : there WILL be days when a thin thruster won’t do it for me !

I’ll be keen to get either 'popeye’s board , my ‘banksy’ , or perhaps a thinner homemade thruster out into some chest to headhigh [hopefully, QUALITY !] surf this fast approaching winter so the ‘research’ can continue in better suited conditions…

…to be continued …

ben

14

My day to day board used to be a 6’6"x19x2 7/16. My surf buddy , about my size rides a 6’1x18 1/4x 2 1/4- he regularly could out-paddle me and catch more waves easily. I got a 6’2x 18 3/4 x 2 3/8 - now I can paddle and catch waves as well as my bud . I finish the session less tired. No bull. My thinking- less volume , less surface area, less weight possibly a bigger factor than flotation in paddling/wave catching in a short time period ? Lighter, less surface area = less resistance ? - not talking compared to high float gliders. These smaller boards allow for later take offs using the wave energy to throw me forward rather than trying to “catch” or “catch up with” the wave by hard paddling- my thinking out loud.

15
Quote:

“What is that bad spot in volume?”

There are lots of surfboard design myths around,usually old chestnuts which have been passed down through the years, but here we have a live one in the making ! To put it bluntly, there is no bad spot in volume. :slight_smile:

16

Interesting stuff here. I’m really wondering about the energy saved from duck diving vs. ease of paddling a board with more float.

Here’s my experience with two 7’ boards:

The first one is a 7’ pintail semigun: 7’ x 19 1/4 x 2 1/2. Single to double concave. It paddled great in really clean conditions and was fast. But I found that when fighting for waves in windblown slop I wouldn’t get a thing. It seemed to go nowhere, and never get up any speed paddling in the rough conditions. I don’t know the nose dimensions, but it is very pointy.

Second board is a 7’ funboard: 7’ x 20 1/4 x 2 5/8. Kind of a stretched egg profile, with the nose only a little narower than the wide point. Also single to double concave. I love this board on day’s when I don’t have to duck. It’s almost impossible for me to properly duck it, but my skills are seriously lacking. I’m sure someone could get it under a wave. But man, it catches waves like mad on choppy days and glassy days alike. As long as I’m at a point break, it’s the board I choose. I’ve decided to get rid of the other board.

In terms of fitness, I’m 29, 160 lbs and in decent shape. I surf about 3 to 4 times a week. Oh, and the rails on both boards are pretty similar in my eye, also with similar rocker. If anything, the stretched egg has a little more rocker to it.

So far what I’ve read in the thread seems to indicate that thinner rails make for better paddling. But with similar rails, it would seem that the board with more volume would be faster, if harder to duck.

Pat

17

Ive always givin up paddling speed for loosness and manueverability. I think we all gotta find our own balance. Usually when i order a board, the shaper looks at me skeptically when im ordering a 6’3"-18.25-2.25 because im 6’ about 200 lbs but thats what i like.

18

I agree completely. This oft-seen pic of my fav board is testament:

Key features: 5’8", Not much float but a bit of width (19") with a pretty wide tail (I think 15-something), and knife thin rails.

I am 6’0" and 180-185 lbs (ok, ok… I’m presently weighing in at 195 with a little “daddy belly”, but that is in the process of being omitted).

By sitting lower in the water, thin boards can “tap into” the wave’s energy better, but they do require the user to “swim” as much as “paddle”. The trick is to have enough width to maintain planing.

This is my knee-high to a few feet overhead board and never fails me.

19

I made two boards last year,both the same rocker and plan shape with very similar railshape

6’8 x 19 7/8 one is 1 7/8 the other is 2 3/16

The thiner is better in hollower surf

Im 50 and quite often I will ride the thinner board in the morning and then the thicker board later in the day when i have less energy

The two boards are very easy to swap between and there is not a lot of difference in the ride between the two

Both are compsands both are engineered to have similar flex

If it is really big and there is a lot of white water to get out through then the thicker is better as you dont get boged down in the white stuff so much

Mike

20

thanks hacky , for reminding me of that board of yours , and your comments .

And thanks Mike [‘sabs’]

I was wondering with the composite sandwich boards , the eps boards , the vacuum bagged boards , how the balance between what would seem ‘not enough volume’ to the casual observer [read : me , uninformed] and the apparent extra buoyancy [?] of eps , and the lighter weight , all works in to the equation of a good manouevrable light floaty [but not ‘too much’] , strong board that ‘feels’ right / surfs well for each individual . [A “juggling game” to some extent , till , like Bert I guess , you hit on some kind of theory / technique / formula which “works” consistently .

Bert , Greg , Speedneedle , DanB , Silly, Oneula , Yoshio , Benny1, ‘Sabs’ …and others …

I am interested to hear your experiences and findings with eps / ‘compsands’ / vac bagged epoxy resined boards … if there is indeed , as in the title of this thread , an ‘ideal paddling and volume’ in a board ? [and vice versa…]

cheers !

ben