Ideal paddling and volume.

General Discussion
21

Hi Ben

I guess that any thickness works its just that with compsands you will find with experience that there is a flex amount that is just right for what you want the board to do.

You then combine that experiance with compsand construction experience so that you can get the desired flex out of any given thickness.

The only way to learn how to get that is to build lots of boards and learn how different things affect the finished product

I sorry if that sounds like a smoke screen! but really there are many many things that affect the flex on these boards even down to glassing systems ie pre, post,infuse baging, rails laps shape,skin density,skin thickness the list goes on and on

The good thing is once you comitt and start going down the road it gets more and more like steps laid out in front of you are all ready leading the way

and as you say eventually you “hit on some kind of theory / technique / formula which “works” consistently .”

I think that because there are so many variables each of us can use differing techniques and achieve results that work

Mike

Ps just dive in head first its a hell of a lot harder thinking about it then it is doing it!!

22

I don’t know…

I don’t like “squishy” boards that feel like they are going to break.

my 7’4" x 1.75" x 22" stubbvector sando with wood rails and a concave deck feels exactly like that.

I still need to test my 6’2" x 23.5" x 1.75" quad fish with corecel rails and flat deck to compare

but I don’t need to feel the water rushing under my feet under my ultra thin board.

Thinness thickness what ever…

I think paddling and turning has more to do with entry and exit rocker combined with outline than anything else like thickness. All my floaty EPS boards ride like cr*p depending on where the float is and don’t necessarily paddle better than my thin poly’s.

The ideal scenerio which I believe Sabs,Silly, Meec and other are achieving is to get the same punch and spring off the secondary turns on the shoulder or in the hook as you do off the big bottom turn. To be able to maintain the same amount of speed you get of the bottom turn on any of the subsequent turns is where the built in flex enters the equation.

In my simpleton interpretation of this whole flex business is that it’s primamry benefit is to smooth out the relationship between turns no matter when and where they are being made so theres no loss in velocity as you come out of one turn and go into another. No stalling, no sliding, no squirrelliness, just pure controlled speed kind of like pulling figure eights in deep powder.

The over all result I believe is achieving smoothness.

The same effect can be achieved with normal equipment but through unbelievable timing and feel for ones equipment. Look at a guy like Parko and he looks slow even lazy. But he’s so smooth and on top of whats happening with his board it doesn’t look like he’s expending any effort like you see in how a curren or slater style which is more aggressive in directional changes. Even Bruce has some of this especially on his backside. The board actually looks like it’s drawing really long lines staying in the predetermined power stream in the wave. As you progress away from the staggered and staged big moves into an interconnected series of unending moves then you start appearing to be obtaining the “dance” allusion that guys like Phil, Curren, Greenough, Lynch and others seemed to have achieved.

I think that’s what all this new sando construction is leading to and not neccessarily an easier paddling floatier or longer lasting board. But something that makes you surf smoother as you go faster and engage in more complex maneuvers.

But I haven’t got there yet with one of my sandos so it’s hard for me to verify this. Maybe one of the guys who’s felt this can concur. And size has no impact to how this happens either but the smaller the better. Everyone who doesn’t want to move their feet seems to be discovering this just like the tow guys did.

23

Great post. Useful info.

Awhile back I did a long stint in Italy and figured I needed more float when I came back to make up for being out of shape. I bought a 7’2" x 2 5/8" thick ( I don’t remember the width). Definitely not a fun board, more like a big guy tri (I’m only 155 pounds). It was the biggest mistake I ever made. I think struggling to duck dive that board wore me out way more than paddling a smaller board would have. Ease of diving means alot as far as how fatigued you will get.

I now have 2 small wave boards one 6’-4" x 19 1/2" x 2 1/2" very floaty, the other 6’-3" x 18 3/4" x 2 1/4". I rode the fatter board this weekend and felt I could move up and down the beach much faster to get to peaks popping up here and there, but not necessarily get into a wave any earlier. On the thin chip the wave has to basically come to me. But I like being able to do cutbacks on waist high waves.

I’ve been ruminating alot on this issue (paddle speed and power), but more with regards to the merits of a gun or fun gun versus a longboard in getting into large but not necessarily hollow waves. Which is better?

24

what a great post Bernie !

wish I had a printer , I would stick that on the wall .

[what you’ve written , not the printer …]

cheers !

ben

…I’m loving this discussion …this is more like the surfboard design stuff that got me to swaylocks in the first place . Cheers !

25

Has any one tried an Alexsander SK8-deck design?

Gemini or conventional

The thickness is 2 7/8",but the rail foil comes off a 2 1/4" board. A thicker board( with a slightly concave deck) for flotation and paddling, yet a thinner,responsive rail with almost symmetrical thickness and foil for enhanced performance.

This is from ww.alexandersurfboards.com

Silver bullet or none of the above?

Take care Ian

26

I think the shape of the nose and the nose rocker have a lot to do with the way a board paddles. Too much and the board pushes water. I also think having some concave up in the front helps. I can paddle a bigger board faster than a smaller one if it has the right rocker for its shape. If smaller boards paddled better than bigger boards, there wouldn’t be 100 guys out at town with longboards.

I love the way smaller boards handle. Thinner narrower boards will always surf better in good waves. You can go wider if the surf is less powerful. But in those nice round waves, shorter and narrower seems to have more control. I’m enjoying smaller flatter boards right now, but when it’s crowded, I take out my 8’0" 2 3/4" thick egg. The smaller board forces me to be right in the sweet spot to take off. With the 8’0", I can compete with the longboarders, and get into the wave early. On a 6’0", I feel that I can ride anywhere on the wave and be in control. Plus, these little boards will turn on a dime, so all you have to do is think about turning and it just goes. Just like riding a skateboard.

27

Damnit, you all got me thinking now…

I totally fell in love with the last compsand I shaped, based solely upon aesthetic appeal, but I never rode it because at 6’6" 19.25 and 2.25 it is “too little volume” for my 205# ass, and I wanted it to be pristine to sell…

Now I’m seriously wondering if I might need to paddle it out just one time, “brand new” status be damned.

28

silver bullet at least for me.

in 1995-1996 or some 10 years ago I was like 160-165lbs riding a 6’2"-19.5"-2.5" Jeff Bushman copy of Curren’s famous fireball. The board smoked still does although squirrely it was by far one of the fastest boards I’ve ridden. Mr. Shark Country took it out in hurricane sized 10’ hawaiian southshore I believe and he says the little 6’2" fish flew although somewhat out of control but just like curren I presume. i’m sure he’ll vouch for what ever lie he told me about the experience… That one board taught me alot about small boards and Bushman’s shaping talent. Just like my Linden recycler taught me about epoxy and Linden’s shaping talents several years earlier. Again another simply amazing board till it delammed after I left it in the sun.

Some ten years later and now 190-195lbs due to the excesses of a white collar life, I had another Jeff, Jeff Alexander make me another rocket but this time a 6’6"-19.5"-3" Gemini with SK8 rails. 3" sounds thick and bouncy but the SK8 rails are equivalent to the rails of a 2.25" or 2" thick board and the deck ends up concaved a bit for better heel-toe weighting. Again this board flies much faster than the Bushman but also much more in control with it’s weird bottom, outline and quad fins. Basically a stretch quad before there was a stretch quad. Fugly board just like those jet bottoms or even those foil boards, but who cares as long as it works. No flex tech here but it’ll do till I can figure the sando thing out. Anyway CMP’s sando technique was primarily designed to create a little heavy and stiff indestructable PU core boards so we definitely have a learning curve to battle. But there’s not many people who can wrap balsa around a rail seemlessly like CMP can. And those that have tried know what a difficult task that is. Now if we can only wrap 1/16" balsa around a winged SK8 rail…

So in my opinion the SK8 rail has some merit…

but like I always say…why don;t you find out for your self like I did…

what I like you may not…

Hey J

don’t worry the way these things hold up they’ll never know

We once saw JJ polish off a year old 6’2" AVISO to sell as “new” $1200

29

" I find that I generate the most efficient paddling speed/effort ratio when my nose tip is just under the surface …"

can you please explain this further , Jesh ?

I don’t think I quite get it [ you WERE being serious , yes ?]

cheers !

ben

30

I found that true with the flatter rocker fish style boards. A little bubble will ride just above the nose.

As long as you maintain paddle speed the bubble stays there.

The nose runs about 1/2 inch below the surface…

31

Been ruminating a while on this one…

Plus one… were the mid range boards thick? If so, would thinning them out dramatically improve the way they surf…so they still maintain a planing/wave catching advantage yet don’t feel like a boat?

Your story seems very counter intuitive…interesting stuff

32

Not sure I’ve got the answer for sure. I’m still trippin on it.

Seems to depend on the float and the surfer’s paddle style/effort.

I went bigger about 8 years ago after breaking my back trying

to duckdive a wave and spent 2+ years recovering, (44y.o. now) with

all sorts of “re-hab” boards, it was TOUGH.

It hurt after every session. My surfing was pathetic, I knew I surfed

better than that. Even injured, I still enjoyed surfing; I have full respect

for my friends who have blown a knee, shoulder, back etc but still are

humble enough to get out there; that’s HUGE.

As my back got better, I found going smaller in board volume just kept

my push going after I got better.

Seemed like the smaller boards were making me more active which in

turn made me get more fit. (for me personally it was not insantly easy)

But somehow it was getting easier. There were those days where

I hadn’t surfed and felt like “a fat tub of s#@t” and it was too crowded.

I was definitely selective of the days I used my shortboard. Then other times

I’d get 2 weeks straight of small board time, then go on a surf trip.

It seemed to pay off. Now I can go into just about any situation with

a shortboard, it’s a viable option.

So, in general, the mid-range boards were thick BUT not always, some

were rockered and thin and did not work for a particular individual. The

mid part of the board was doing a lot of the floating “effort”, so you can

see that thick could be a good thing in that case.

Thinning helps sensitivity, BUT some surfers are not into this, they have

a specific style and that is to be respected. Not sure if this mid-range

volume happens to every surfer.

Maybe you could try thinner and find out…?

It goes against intuition, I’ve been using myself in the testing and only want

to find the stuff that works. I’ve also been finding stuff that doesn’t.

33

" I’ve also been finding stuff that doesn’t."

…can you type about some of those , please ? And WHY you felt they didn’t work [design features , perhaps ? …cheers George !]

(for me , in my shifty beachbreak , I’m still trying daily to figure it , even after all these years here … That sucks , eh ?)

ben

34

Im with Chip…what a crazy thought provoking thread!

Thx George.

It seems to me that its condition specific…some breaks might require more glide, while some might require more penetration.

I think I could pull this off IF I was swim fit…which is rare these days. I used to be an avid swimmer (pretty fast too) and I clearly remember my higher ability to paddle a surfboard then. Oneula can relate…all this time consuming board building negatively impacts fitness! But me the useless junkie/addict, will be building a Hein special…Ive actually had this project on the backburner for 6 months or so (I guess Ive become more ‘responsible’…priorities)

off topic for a moment:

I went bigger about 8 years ago after breaking my back trying

to duckdive a wave and spent 2+ years recovering…

Have you learned the ‘squat’ duckdive yet?

How’bout the ‘cannonball’ duckdive?

35

This really is a great thread and I’m glad to see that others have found that a low volume “swimmer” board is a real alternative to a glider. I currently have three boards in my usual rotation - two fish that, while they are pretty small boards (5’10 and 6’0), they both have a fair amount of width and volume and are definitely gliders. I can catch just about anything on these boards and since picking up the 6’0 my longboard has been gathering dust. The other is a 6’8 pintail that belonged to a local “pro” of about half my age. The board has so little volume that it is practically under water when I paddle it. But I can catch tons of waves with that board too - I’m not going to take it out on a one foot day but I’ve often wondered what is it about that board that works so well for me. When I read the earlier post above where someone mentioned swimming the board for the first time a light went off in my head - that is what works about that board - I think I am low enough to the water that I can more effectively engage more swimming muscles (I am a regular swimmer) to propel myself forward.

As a contrasting example, this weekend I briefly took out another board of mine that was made for me a while back as a higher volume verson of a beloved board that I’d ridden into the ground. Looking back, I realize that the original was a “swimmer” and felt alot like the 6’8 I ride now. But the bigger version of the same board (same template, same rocker, just stretched and thickened a bit) just never worked. It was fine once I was up and going but it paddled so poorly that it seemed like 9 times out of 10 I was behind the wave from the get go. This weekend’s experience was no different and I think it is because this board lies in that inefficient area between swimmer and glider. It has now been permanently assigned to the rafters of my garage.

36

Condition specific for wave, rider, and board combination. I think sometimes the problem with a fuller volume board is that even tho you have what seems to be enough speed you are floating on top of the wave instead of being caught in the wave and carried forward with it.

37

what is it about that board that works so well for me.

Howdy Jeff,

Strange, but I was thinking about you on that board while reading this thread. I clearly remember your quote above when we spoke. I also remember how thin the tail was (like 0.25 thick rails)…I’d like to take a closer look at it again if its ok with you. Maybe make some replicas? Fun fun…

I also remember a few years ago reading a surfing mag…when tour pros really started chargin big chopoo…I think it was C Lopez talkin about busting his 6’10 and then having no choice but to ride his 6’3…and realizing how much better the 6’3 worked cuz the board ‘fit’ the wave face better…maybe it also allows a more ‘inside’ (as opposed to ‘on top’) the wave fit and thus providing better control on the drops.

This thread is very refreshing.

38
Quote:

Condition specific for wave, rider, and board combination. I think sometimes the problem with a fuller volume board is that even tho you have what seems to be enough speed you are floating on top of the wave instead of being caught in the wave and carried forward with it.

BINGO !!

A light just came on for me !

my 7’ single fin does that …

cheers ,

ben

39

Sounds good to me Dave. We’ll just have to wait until after the baby - he’ll be here any day. I’m really stoked to get some clarity in my mind about this swimming the board idea. As you know, I’ve been wrestling with it for a while. Funny how one word can turn the light on.

40
Quote:
Quote:

Condition specific for wave, rider, and board combination. I think sometimes the problem with a fuller volume board is that even tho you have what seems to be enough speed you are floating on top of the wave instead of being caught in the wave and carried forward with it.

BINGO !!

A light just came on for me !

my 7’ single fin does that …

cheers ,

ben

I just saw that same light, and after watching a kid jump every wave he wanted yesterday in 2 foot flat faced Gulf Coast mush on a chip (Flyer 2), I’m wondering what I should do with myself. I mean it didn’t even look like he was TRYING very hard–a couple paddles, three kicks, up before the thing was fully planing–I was thinking what the hell…meanwhile I’m on this boaty 7’6" with a pulled tail, thinking what an idiot am I–and that’s the diff: I was paddling like mad, trying to get match the wave’s speed to get planing on my floatyboard, and he was down in the wave, getting the push from underneath. I think I can imagine how that would feel. He kicked out pretty quick though on most of them, and I would never want to kick out after a 20 yard ride because I was sinking--------so could I just hang a bit off the back of the bigger board???

Considering my weight (210# w/o wetsuit), and the fact that I’m definitely a front footed surfer, I’ve been thinking a widepoint-forward shwuz (his last MR sando) in the 6’8" range, in the 3’’ thick range. Maybe as a 2+1, maybe a quad–

Good thread.