Ideal paddling and volume.

General Discussion
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then having no choice but to ride his 6’3…and realizing how much better the 6’3 worked cuz the board ‘fit’ the wave face better

That’s an intersting comment because I’ve heard it before. Matching the boards curves to the waves to fit it instead of fighting it. Granted I surf in Florida not Chopes, but I’ve found that I’ve been much happier going with a smaller board for smaller waves. I’ve got a 6’4" for when it’s good (rarely, here) and a 6’0 that is pretty much my standard these days, and a 5’10 for weak grovelly surf. As they get shorter they get wider and fuller noses to help plane earlier.

I’ve keep dropping size off the smallest board, it went from a pretty full-railed 6’2" x 2.5" thick, to more foiled rail 5’10" x 2.25" thick. I’m thinking the next one either going 5’8 and even thinner rails or getting it in EPS and do a 5’10" with a nicely concaved deck.

I’ve definately found a correlation to increased width compensating for decreased volume. The whole idea seems counter-intuitive but it seems to work. As is mentioned you’re not so much “catching” the wave as you are being picked up by it.

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Hey Ben,

I usually ride a 6’2" with a slight flip in the tip of the nose. I find that it paddles better when the nose skims the surface but predominately from underneath it. It creates these streams of airbubbles everytime it kisses the surface. I find that if I keep the nose from coming up out of the water, and I keep a consistent stream of airbubbles streaming back at me I get into a nice little rythm and before you know it I’m back at the peak ready for another. I’m not sure why… I think it has to do with my positioning on the board mostly, when my nose does that I seem to be in the most efficient planing position on my board. If the tip of my nose is above the water I feel like I’m pushing water and exerting more energy. I think the board overall acts differently when submerged because it’s not fighting against the surface of the water and instead acts more like a foil with water flowing completely around it…maybe it’s acting like a upside down airplane wing…the water flowing into the nose and releasing over it into the deck creates a bit of lift?? Shoot I have no clue about that stuff…

I just watched my 53 year old pop surfing a 5’11 fish not thick and wide either, one shaped for a young guy probably 2.3 thick and 19 wide…he was ripping it and catching waves fine…he was stoked. He’s a world class surfer mind you but still the biggest problem it would seem would just be gettin into waves and he had no problem there whatsoever.

Go smaller…

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I’m not sure i’m qualified to chime in here, as i’m recovering from a back injury and subsequent weight gain, but…

Here are my humble comparisons of a few boards.

8 months after my car accident i felt strong enough to put on swimfins and ride a bodyboard. i was way overweight and paddling/kicking/swimming this little board was a ton of effort. I stuck with the bodyboard for a few months of surfing/swimming every day(the weightlessness of being in water seems to help my back heaps) i had lost a good bit of the excess weight, and was catching waves and moving about the lineup with relative ease.

then i decided to jump back on my 9’6 Harbour to see how my popup and balance faired(both were nonexistant). The glide from paddling this board (22.5widex3"thick) was a great feeling. I could really get around the lineup, but would miss waves often (the being on top of the wave, not in it, as referenced earlier in this thread). I started riding the longboard on my knees and that’s when the light clicked. Being in a crouched position helped my issues with my back, also helped to fit better inside small tubes, and i had better balance.

The first board i started riding as a kneeboard was a Caster 6’2x21x3+" thick.

http://forum.surfermag.com/photopost/showgallery.php?si=Caster&limit=&thumbsonly=0&perpage=12&cat=501&ppuser=0&thumbcheck=0&page=1&sortby=&sorttime=0&way=&cat=501&x=7&y=13

i found it was too thick and floaty to swim with it the way i could with the bodyboard, but it caught waves easily in clean conditions because of the thickness and low rocker.

More recently I acquired a 4’10 x 23 x 2 5/8 quad fish kneeboard.

http://www.swaylocks.com/forum/gforum.cgi?post=253187;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

it is considerably thinner and wider than the caster. much shorter, but with a rounded nose. This board does not plane on top of the water like the Caster. It has to be used with swimfins(i tried both with UDT’s and without. without was a humbling experience). Though i have only had it out for two sessions, it feels like it has the best characteristics of both the bodyboard and the Caster. Very easy to duck, moves pretty swiftly through the shifty beachbreak lineup, and catches waves well. It will take many more sessions before i can further elaborate on this board as compares to the others, as the few hours i’ve had on it were just a tease.

This is a great thread, and coincidentally great timing as I was trying to figure out the differences in these boards.

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My 2 cents…

A Low volume small board sinks and allows your body to be supported by the water - makes breathing, therefore paddling easier - aerobically.

A hi-volume /long board holds you up out of the water and all your weight is on your rib-cage - making regular breathing harder and forcing you to hold up more weight muscularly (sp?).

small board under the body creates a planing surface of a smaller amount of drag - smaller surface = less drag

longboard has a ton of surface area dragging at the water - you have to pull it through the water - using more muscle too.

Momentum is where the longboard has the big advantage - 5-6 strong strokes on an LB takes you about 8 times further than the same efforts on a short board. This makes wave catching sometimes easier on an LB since the reaction time slows down for paddling to catching and standing.

If you have quick reflexes the turn-pull-stand and drop style of shortboard take off is much easier - aerobically

EJ

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Condition specific for wave, rider, and board combination. I think sometimes the problem with a fuller volume board is that even tho you have what seems to be enough speed you are floating on top of the wave instead of being caught in the wave and carried forward with it.

BINGO !!

A light just came on for me !

my 7’ single fin does that …

cheers ,

ben

I just saw that same light, and after watching a kid jump every wave he wanted yesterday in 2 foot flat faced Gulf Coast mush on a chip (Flyer 2), I’m wondering what I should do with myself. I mean it didn’t even look like he was TRYING very hard–a couple paddles, three kicks, up before the thing was fully planing…

Good thread.

Yes, Yes, and YES!

Go small and you are fully engaged with the wave. No-paddle takeoffs become more common, not less. Spin, push the nose down (because your hands are right there already) and get to your feet.

I don’t have any thrusters in the 6-7’ range not bacause I can’t catch waves with them, but because they bog when I’m up & surfing them. But a sub-6’ fish, or a thruster for me (7’2", 19, 2.5") works just great.

My waves, tho, are another matter. Not so much lending themselves to in-the-pocket surfing…so I’ve grown so fond of the logs. :slight_smile:

46

well a 5" thick 12’-16’ 30" wide SUP kind of changes the equation

especially with a 52" carbon fiber paddle in your hand.

outrigger canoe too…

Paddling wise you aren’t gonna out paddle a 12’ piece of EPS on a 6’ chunk of PU.

I guarantee that.

that’s is till the 10 foot white water hits you

2 steps forward 100 steps back…

going short is more obtaining a balance of performance, paddling, duck diving, etc etc than just paddling.

but then again what do i know… I’m a just a crusty barnacle.

47

A Low volume small board sinks and allows your body to be supported by the water - makes breathing, therefore paddling easier - aerobically.

F’n Brilliant Eric!

Never thought of that!

I’ve always struggled with that one…ability to breath more freely while paddling. In the past, I’ve actually laid on the floor in my house to verify this…yup, cant breath too good.

Your $0.02 is worth lots more in my book.

So gents, who’s gonna break the ice and build a 1.5 incher?

Any takers?

Hey George, you really opened up a can’o’worms with this one.

48
Quote:

A Low volume small board sinks and allows your body to be supported by the water - makes breathing, therefore paddling easier - aerobically.

So gents, who’s gonna break the ice and build a 1.5 incher?

Any takers?

I’ve been wondering how thin i could go with a kneeboard. Seeing how I use fins for propulsion and don’t necessarily need any thickness or float, i would imagine a board this thin could work very well, provided it is wide enough and has the right planshape. Has anyone kneelo or standup gone this thin before???

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My waves, tho, are another matter. Not so much lending themselves to in-the-pocket surfing…so I’ve grown so fond of the logs. :slight_smile:

Yeah Benny you bring up the point I and waahoo brought up earlier…I believe George used the term “purpose built”. There’s wisdom in those words.

Put it this way, if Im making a board for Puerto Escondido, Im building thin and strong (#2 eps with triple6 top, double bottom).

I like this thread cuz my favorite local wave is perfectly suited for a ‘penetrator’ application. Ive surfed the place sometimes when you just get launched if your board is too flighty.

I do believe theres a compromise to be had with this, and thats on wave speed…that would be very wave dependent. I prefer wider boards so it will likely work for me tho.

50

Thanks but I cannot take credit for that gem.

When I first started surfing I was frustrated by the seemingly out of scale difficulty of holding my breath when ducking underwaves and eating it… both of which were a big part of my life as opposed to riding waves - which is what I thought I was doing.

I asked my friend and mentor (Mr. Landon) about it and after looking at me like the dork that I was (am) said ‘it’s hard to breath when lying on your ribcage with your back arched all the way up. Plus - you are paddling and exerting yourself. It’s not like swimming in a pool, or jogging.’ Or similar words (30 years ago now).

Stuck with me all the years, cause it’s true.

EJ

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Wow, learning lots of good stuff here…

I don’t want to send a misconception out there. I burn WAY more calories swimming my

shortboards. They manuever the line-up, etc. because of the phys inputs are vigorous.

From what I am gathering here, I am not trippin, certain flotation qualities (that don’t make

sense at first) are giving me the opportunity to put more effort into wave-getting. On my

9’6" triple-stringer, I basically windmill my arms, sometimes I find that I am dry-humping the

deck when struggling to get a wave, seems like the bounce helps a bit though, kind of like

the “Bounce Guy” on the bow of those “Dragon Boats” in Asia. Sort of submerging/emerging

the board to get down/into the wave.

On shorties,

I paddle with my arms, kick with my legs at times, push on the deck with my chin at times

and even tried slithering like a fish. My arm strokes are consciously deeper and I reach out

further for more “water purchase”. I am way more aware of keeping my body streamlined.

It keeps me “honest” the entire session.

I come out of the water SORE, or at least I was, now it is pretty normal.

With that said, I am presently designing my first SUP board. Only the paddle is in the water

(ideally) but the whole thing is like one of those Nordic Trak machines: "a full-body workout

for only 30 minutes a day" (spread out over a fun 2 hour surf session)…

52

Not sure how/if this is relevant, but Rich Harbour states on his website, “Studies have shown that while paddling at 3.5 knots the amount of wetted surface accounts for approximately 85% of the drag. However at about 5 knots, the curves of the outline and rocker now account for about half of the resistance and friction on the wetted surface the other half.”

Some food for thought in any event…

P.O.P.E.

53

Hey Jesh, I too have been hypnotised by the little magic bubble clinging to the nose of my board, but I’m pretty sure it is a sign of drag. Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but that little clinging bubble is a sign of turbulance, of the lack of laminar flow, of water being dragged along, what hang gliders call “rotors.” So I think when your nose is submerged like that you are actually pushing more water and dragging some along to boot. But you know what? Watching that little bubble is magical- hydrodynamics in action. Watching the pelicans glide by doesn’t help me paddle bettter but they too make the whole experience more gratifying.

I think small boards help you conserve energy because they duck dive better, maybe you sit inside and don’t paddle as much to catch waves (on my little board I basically have to get pitched into the wave so it’s useless to sit outside and try to paddle in on a wave). But if there’s a crowd and there’s competent longboarders out there, I know I’m not going to get as many waves.

ps Where’s LeeDD?

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I love this thread because everyone contributing uses slightly different language to make their points & observations…all leading up to an extremely valuable body of knowledge.

Great comment on ‘slithering’ +1. I do that too, if I’m a little too far outside on the fish and can’t jam it into the drop. Swinging my arms wide out to the sides on the recovery strokes & using chest pressure to oscillate the board…seems like I can pick up a lot of extra speed to make a mushy drop. Like how on a 50/50 longboard (or a long skate) you can do micro rail-to-rail turns to pick up a lot of speed while holding a line. Must be about weighting & unweighting the rails to gather speed through reducing friction, but doing it in series instead of parallel (pumping would be in parallel).

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hmmmm, maybe. I would say that the air bubble is created when you just graze the surface then it stays there becasue if you keep pace you are continously dragging the nose and the air bubble hangs there. The bubble doesn’t make me paddle better. It’s having my board at that exact depth that does. Again my point was that the nose seems to creat MORE drag when above surface cutting through the water and the conatstantly changing surface pressure. When it’s below, the drag and resistance is uniform and not affected by changes in pressure caused by chop therefore my glide through the water is not changing but remains constant. Also my theory is that under water the board can act as a foil. that the energy put into pushing the board forward can create a more efficient interaction of the water with the hydronamic properties of the surfboard to create faster speeds. But only in relation to the same board being paddled with the nose out of the water:)

I don’t think that made sense…oh well

Dunno maybe those pelicans could help you paddle better…

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So gents, who’s gonna break the ice and build a 1.5 incher?

Any takers?

I did a dozen or so flexible balsa shortboard singles at exactly 1.5 inches thick back in 1995, they rode well but the low volume was no particular advantage.

:slight_smile:

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well a 5" thick 12’-16’ 30" wide SUP kind of changes the equation

especially with a 52" carbon fiber paddle in your hand.

outrigger canoe too…

Paddling wise you aren’t gonna out paddle a 12’ piece of EPS on a 6’ chunk of PU.

I guarantee that.

that’s is till the 10 foot white water hits you

2 steps forward 100 steps back…

going short is more obtaining a balance of performance, paddling, duck diving, etc etc than just paddling.

but then again what do i know… I’m a just a crusty barnacle.

Hi Oneula,

A heavy 12’ hunk of timber enables you to roll under the wave, which is just as effective as duckdiving a shortboard.

Also, a heavy longboard is able to use its weight to swing into late no paddle drops, unlike superlight foam longboards.

Heavy longboards can be low volume or high volume. . . it’s the weight that counts.

Heavy longboards also accelerate faster when taking off

:slight_smile:

58

I’m heading out the door right now to go surfing and I’ll see how it goes with the nose under water. It definitely seems counterintuitive but I love to experiment. Crafty - I’m heading for corners if you are reading this.

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yea more volume help in small waves it make catching them a bit easier and paddling a little more comofrtable, but yea i rode a 6 2 mr last summer in head high surf and my friend was riding a 5 10 mtf and i was stuck inside and had no strength when i got bad out…

60

my 2 cents worth:

for every board there is a correct wave

for every wave there is a correct board

and for every correct wave/board combo there is a right place to catch the wave

mess up any of the above and you’re working too hard

PS if you can’t duck dive a 7’2" you’re not duck diving right.