Input on reverse lam/layup/glassing process.

General Discussion
1

Hey everyone, Ive checked the archives in regards to my current dilemma, but I can’t find anything that addresses my problem directly. Let me explain:

I recently bought a machined Harbour 9’10 LB blank off of craigslist to finish shape and glass at work since my new house doesnt have any room to noodle around in board-wise. Even though the board’s design (banana '09 model) is basically set in stone, I wanted to study the shape and keep the creative juices flowing by finishing the blank, then really explore some alternative paths with the coloring and glassing like I’ve seen on the Show Me Your Tints thread. 

 

  • I’ve got it in my head to do a reverse lamination, which as far as I understand, means I lam the deck first > cutlap > then wrap the bottom to the deck > cutlap, then hotcoat and so on. So far, so good, but my planned color scheme is going to complicate things a bit.

  • As far as tinting goes, I plan for the deck and rails to be tinted one color, then I want to do a contrasting multicolored inlay/panel on the bottom within the border of the cutlap to keep the colors from the deck+rails and bottom totally separate. Then I’ll glass a layer of clear over the inlay and wrap that to the deck and cutlap. Finally I’ll add a pinline to the inlay/deck lam intersection after the hotcoat to cover up any raggedness. 

 

So my most immediate questions are:

  • What oz of cloth should I be aiming for when doing the bottom inlay and wrap so I can both keep weight down but also “even out” or soften the cutlap edge from the deck lam on the bottom when I go to hotcoat? Inlay at 4oz then wrap at 6oz? Both inlay and wrap at 4oz? At 6oz??? 

  • For discussion’s sake, lets say I do a 2x6oz deck and 6oz bottom, with possible fin and deck patches in 4oz. Do I have to wrap all top layers to the cutlap instead of staggering one or more underlying layers at the rail apex like normal since there could be gradation issues in the rail tint? Ide imagine doing so would lead to a big step on the bottom from the cutlap, complicating hotcoating. 

  • After further thought, would I be better suited to just do the main lams in a thicker cloth like volan, while doing the bottom inlay at 4oz, as a solution to big cutlap ledge described above?

 

Weight is not a huge factor, and durability is desirable, but I would rather the board skew towards the lighter side if possible. At 9’10, this will be the biggest board I’ve ever ridden, so I’m at an impasse on deciding how to do this inaly of mine without resorting to sandwhiching a ton of cloth and resin together to even everything out. 

 

Thanks, looking forward to any input you guys can provide.

2

 Inlay the bottom 4, then glass the bottom 6/4.

 Glass the deck as you would normally.

 Your board is pretty long, susceptible to stress fractures.

 Most glassers like to spray the bottom.

3

I mainly do airbrushing for my art and one color resin tints so this will be a learning curve for me as well. Im thinking maybe tape off the bottom first where you want the deck wrap to join as you would for airbrushing and pour out and squegee the pigmented resin onto the foam without the cloth (foam tinting). Then pull tape and when fully cured retape the bottom on top of that resin line for the deck lam cut. That way you get a clean line for the connection unless you want to pinline it. Flip and lay out your deck cloth and do the deck lam with your colored resin. Let deck set but not to full cure, when tacky flip and cut the taped line on bottom . Let the deck full cure enough to grind the lap or run a clear cheater over it to fill in the ridge. Then start your bottom lam with clear resin free lap or tape and cut if you want but not needed since its clear. Sounds like a easy process to me unless someone has a better way. This way I think you’d keep from cutting into the foam on bottom and causing your deck color from making a colored line in the foam from the razor cut.

4

Another way is maybe do the same as I said on bottom but with cloth kind of like the patch or fabric inlay process. But that would add another layer to bottom and weight.

5

Thanks Lee. But if I do as you suggest, wont the deck tint be splotchy when it hits the clear lam that is covering the inlay and wrapping the rails? I guess I basically want to treat the bottom inlay like how one would normally do a fabric inlay on the deck (ex: tinted bottom and rails, contrasting fabric deck). But in this case it would obviously just be reversed, and utlizing tinted cloth rather than fabric. 

And since its reversed, im just wondering if the disparity of the thicker deck glass would create too high of a cutlap ridge for the bottom lam wrap to overcome, leading to issues applying the hotcoat and getting it to sit relatively flush.

As far as I can tell, the deck and rails are going to have to hit foam first to get that even tint… I guess the only interchangeable part would be to do the inlay first and get the deck to meet up with it’s borders, or do it 2nd, after the deck lam is cutlap’d on the bottom and cutlap the inlay to fit…

One clarification- you mention 6/4 on the bottom. Is that another layer of 6 OR 4 after the inlay, or literally another layer of each on top of the inlay?

 

6

I hadn’t really given foam staining a thought… I tried it once on some test foam and didnt quite like how it looked after glassing. I did it once, before I glassed my 1st board, so I could be off base in not preferring it… 

7

And also with foam staining- Wouldnt bond strength be an issue? Fiberglass bonding to cured resin soaked foam rather than getting a a closer bond with the glass and tint applied at the same time?

 

EDIT- 

I guess I could also do the inlay first, cutlap, tape off for deck lam, lam the deck, cutlap, then do the final bottom wrap clear and then cutlap that on the deck … 

8

heres what I would do,,,,,

blank ready to glass,,,,,

mask off bottom for cut lap

lam the deck, 6oz, (color or tint)

flip and trim when ready, when cured, sand overlaped corners, clean off dust, 

mask at cutlap, and lam 6oz inlay (color or tint)

trim when ready and let cure

when cured, sand lapline level, wont take much

now lam the bottom with 1 x 4oz, (6oz is not out of the question) cutlap on the deck,,, make sure plenty of resin in the cut line (no bubbles)

flip and trim when ready, let cure

feather sand cut lap

lam the deck with 1 x 6oz cut lapped on the bottom

flip and trim when cured

feather sand lap on bottom

baste coat over feathered lap then hoatcoat and finnish

 

overall glass schedule will be ,,,,,

6/4 or 6/6 bottom   standard= 1x6

6/6 deck      standard= 2x6

6/6/4 or 3x6 rail     standard= 3x6

 

 

have fun

9

Unreal advice Ken, thanks. I think that approach makes the most sense, in terms of keeping the different layers checked and balanced. 

 

Now, for sake of argument and thinking out loud, would using volan (or any heavier cloth) for the initial deck lam and inlay lend to a better absortion of color? Fatter weave > more resin > greater concentration of color? Then after the heavier cloth, lam the board with a 4oz bottom wrap and then do a final 6oz deck wrap…?

 

 

10

volan will give you a real deep color simply because it will be a thicker lam

expect to use a lot of resin, volan is thirsty compaired to 6oz

I would just do a 4oz over the whole thing

it will get heavy real quick when you use volan

if your realy shootin for a flawless tint job,, make shure the blank is sanded real good to like 150grt

some guys paint the blank white primmer, guarantied even color, no sanding scratches.

may the force be with you

 

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11

Ken’s right.  Six ounce deck cutlap onto the bottom,  Six ounce inlay on the bottom cut at the lap from the deck,  Then grind and baste as necessary and lam both sides with a four ounce free-lap, hot coat and sand.  Put your lams under the four ounce. Done deal.  The only thing you’ve gained over a standard 6/4 deck, 6 ounce bottom is a layer of four ounce at the bottom.  Weight gain is nil.

12

Mcdings right,

freelaping the clear 4oz would be faster and ,,, no cutline to see,

personaly I like seeing a cut line,,, tells me someone went the extra mile.

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13

If I understand correctly, I did a similar glass job on a bellyboard.  I started with the abstract bottom inlay... I.E. a panel of 4 OZ trimmed with a razor blade where the cutline from the deck would end.  This panel was cut and prepped after cure.  The deck was then glassed - I tried a light green tint but it's barely visible.  The overlap was trimmed (as close as I could get it) right at the edge of the bottom panel.  I basted the cutline with some clear laminating resin and squeegeed it flush before laminating a single layer of clear on the deck - the freelaps on this final layer were scissor trimmed wide so they overlapped the cutline on the bottom.  I basted the freelap prior to hotcoating.  Once sanded, pinlined, and glossed, it looked OK and didn't have any significant weak spots or sheer line at the cut.  FWIW I also used UV cure resin for all the abstract color work on the bottom, including some solid black.  Contrary to popular belief, it all went off without a hitch.  I did leave it in direct sun for awhile to make sure the UV rays penetrated through the lamination.  I also added a bit of MEKP to the UV hotcoat to give it a little boost and perhaps help kick anything below although I don't think this was necessary...

PS - Using this method, it doesn't matter which side you start first.  The cutline will remain the same and the clear freelap over the cutline will remain the same.  No point really in doing a double bottom if you're trying to save weight?

PSS - Volan finish is available on 4 oz cloth as well as 6 oz (and others) and doesn't add any extra weight whatsoever.  The idea that "volan is heavier" is a myth.  Here is a link to Fiberglass Supply's list of cloths.  Note the specific listings under "Boat and Tooling Fabrics."  http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/Product_Catalog/Reinforcements/Glass_Fabrics/glass_fabrics.html

 

14

 You can do as John described …  No sweat.  The four ounce free lapped over top and bottom is something I picked up in glassing factories in Hawaii and Calif, The extra layer of four ounce serves several purposes;  1.  It gives your color work extra protection against dings,  Especially on the bottom where a repair on color work would be more noticeable,  2.  It protects the color work from “burn thrus” by the sander.  If you’ve ever burned thru a tint or color work you know what I mean.  3.  It makes it easy to lay up a lam/logo at top and bottom without using football size patches over the lam/logo and subsequently having to worry about burning thru the lam/logo.  So one extra step that adds little weight can yeild benefits in the build process and in long term wear and tear,

15

This board was free-lapped with four ounce over a “cream” opaque. 

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16

I’ve done it this way on bottom inlays…

Tape off the inlay, laminate with 4oz, cut lap, roll the edge down with a wallpaper seam roller.

Tape off and mask the inlay with red rosin paper. Tint and cutlap the deck at the edge of the inlay with 6oz or whatever you want. Fair the cut lap edge, then baste and fair the inlay/deck lam seam, let cure, lightly sand, pinline.

Freelap clear, bottom first, then deck… logos and fin patches under the clear lams.

A lot of steps, but the look is killer.

17

I’ve done it this way on bottom inlays…

Tape off the inlay, laminate with 4oz, cut lap, roll the edge down with a wallpaper seam roller.

Tape off and mask the inlay with red rosin paper. Tint and cutlap the deck at the edge of the inlay with 6oz or whatever you want. Fair the cut lap edge, then baste and fair the inlay/deck lam seam, let cure, lightly sand, pinline.

Freelap clear, bottom first, then deck… logos and fin patches under the clear lams.

A lot of steps, and you do get that pinline bump on the bottom, but the look is killer.

18

my vote is for the foam stain. easiest way. I’m chiming in only to remind you of the width of your board and the width of 4 oz you may be using. make sure it wraps with enough of a lap for strength.

19

…the fact is with all those steps looks very nice and deep (if you do it right) BUT in the functional department will be less lively and not a good performer except for small gutless surf.

 

Kensurf: why with Volan the lam will be ticker?

20

This thread has to be one of the most comprehensive on reverse inlays/lams that Ive read on here, and I’ve done several late nights combing the archives. You guys rock. 

 

The more I think about it, the more comfortable I am with the idea of a heavier, more durable board. The blank was intended to be one of Harbour’s newer banana models (“performance cruiser” apparently, normally glassed 6/6, 6, volan optional) , but at 9’10 and unable to fit inside my station wagon… I really only see myself roof racking it and surfing at Bolsa, Goldenwest, SanO etc.

Since weight is less of a factor now, Ide rather put more stock in color absorption and durability. Hear me out-

If I follow the steps you guys outlined above and stagger the clear glass wraps after the initial deck/inlay lam, Im only left with those first two primary layers to hold my tints. My thinking here being less cloth = less color… Resin drinking aside, what if I went with 7.5 volan for inlay and initial deck lam to get better depth of color? I would still do 4oz for both wraps and 4 or 6oz for any fin/deck patches…

I dont expect any, but do you guys forsee any issues or downsides? Im all ears.