The question "Is this a China board? can be asked of most SUP’s I’ve seen lately.
Well maybe not China exactly but Asian made in general.
Even Simon Anderson and Luke Short have Asian made SUP’s.
Just noticed Solo, Beery and I can duke it out in battle of the signatures.
I usually stay out of these....because these threads turn into real shitstorms real fast...but this time I could not help it.
I "LOVE" this rethoric where people scream, shout and show you their worn, dirty, bloody fingers and swear to you that they only do this for the LOVE ...Yet the same people then scream and shout how they are making a lot less money than they "SHOULD"
This makes as much sense as shouting "I LOVE YOU....DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?" while beating your wife.
And why do these threads always come with a taste of 1950's paranoia about how the reds are gonna get ya...
I'm a backyard reapir guy...about 2 repairs per month...sometimes more...I run my hands over quite a few top name shapes....Three short board repairs so far this month...plus a longboard....
First board , 6'6 simi gun, top name shaper...broken nose..no shaper signature...Blank is painted white....Why is the blank painted ? Low grade foam?
Second board , 6' 0"...custom shape by a ghost shaper that works for a real board company. Nice shape....lots of cracks and minor dings that need fixing. Low grade foam and light glass job.....
Third board...Top Name shaper.Signed by shaper. My repair customer complains that he bought it off the rack and it started getting pressure dents after the first surf. The board is less than two weeks old. ??? Looks like two years old.
China or USA.....you want it light...you get it light. You want it cheap...you get it cheap.....Pro Job not gloss job...
You lose....ding repair guy wins....
And the longboards.......Don't buy into the HiPerf Long board stuff....Get a solid, heavy glass job....or...
Contact me via pm...I love to fix surfboards.....
Stingray
I agree with you about the not making as much money as they " should. " No doubt. I have heard it before. Shapers have been their own worst enemy by actually buying into the idea that they are some sort of gurus. Their egos along with Surf shop owners greed created much of the problem. Fact is…as I have said many times before. This entire industry…including…the surfboard part has been built on 95% B.S. So what should any thinking adult expect.
It still doesn’t change the fact about China’s bloody regime and " millions " people’s blood on their hands. I find it funny that if someone were to say they would be willing to deal with a Nazi from the 1930’s they would likely be run off the board, but folks have no problem dealing with a country that killed triple the amount of people they did and is " still " killing them. It’s not about the poor Chinese workers who have had to suffer under these regimes for centuries…but it certainly is about supporting bad regimes.
We didn’t outlaw slavery. We simply off shored it. Our country and those who rejoice in dealing these folk have no real problem with certain forms of slavery. After all…they pay them a few dollars a day which is the same as our middle class. They think they are going to win over the regimes with capitalism. After they get theirs of course. Grow wealth, build trading partners and everything will work out fine in a few years.
Those are the facts. Uncomfortable, but true. I don’t know the answer frankly. Dealing with China is legal, but those riding and dealing in those boards shouldn’t talk about human rights, human suffering or make let’s not kill dolphins movies while paddling around on an Asian made surfboard. Yes…we are all using Chinese made products. Mostly because there is no choice in the matter with much of it. If you want a T.V. or clothing…much of it is made there. However…the ONLY reason surfers buy Asian boards is because of the cost and if a couple of hundred bucks is going to break you and keep you from getting a board from a quality shaper/Craftsman…maybe you should be worrying about paying your electric bill and not buying a surfboard?
BTW: America is already under a form of poltically correct communism. Has been for years. We just think we are free. We are just free enough to put a rope around our own necks.
…“do the Reds already have a space station?”…
…one thing is ego driven and other thing is proud to be a top designer and influence everyone, as many all over these years; and that is not ego in a bad way. People who really knows many things and think, create, elaborate ideas and theories are all DIY ers and that is too much for the masses.
Then, you have the bulk of the shapers and “designers” that really have ego…of what??? of branding??? yep that is what now we/us knee deeping.
These guys never intended to be craftmen…more businessmen than other thing
by the way, America is a continent not 1 country…
and like I previously mentioned, may be not the biggest in surf industry
for ex.: is really kind of joke the surfing shapers tree…
[quote="$1"] ...I find it funny that if someone were to say they would be willing to deal with a Nazi from the 1930's they would likely be run off the board... [/quote]
In his book Trading with the Enemy: the Nazi-American Money Plot 1933-1949, author Charles Higham documents how doing business with the Nazis in the 1930's and '40's was big money for ITT, Standard Oil, Ford and GM, all with the blessing of FDR, and made legal under the "trading with the enemy act". During WWII America had fuel shortages and gasoline rationing while Standard Oil made huge profits selling fuel to the Nazis. ITT sold them the technology used to invade France. Nazi jeeps made by Ford. etc, etc.
According to some historians, after the war ended, much of Hitler's intelligence staff ended up working for the American intelligence agency.
It seems to me that we can debate about the situation, but these decisions are made on a higher level, usually - for obvious reasons - without informing the general public of all the facts. So there is no need for us to turn on each other, lets respect each other's right to differing viewpoints based on the limited knowledge we have.
I absolutely respect others right to their viewpoint. None of that is a personal attack and I think that is what is wrong and if you will...evil about our politically correct society. Certain subjects cannot be discussed honestly or openly without someone not playing fair by assuming something about why a person posted it. It leaves some issues that need to be resolved off the table. The stuff about doing business with Nazis doesn't surprise me. Many of them were not henchmen, but forced to do what they did under threat. That is how dictatorships operate. Same with China..which is why the average chinese workers shouldn't be blamed resented.
Surfers are some of the activist lot I have been around for various humanitarian things around the world, but sadly most of it, like most other humanitarian junk is just something to fill the pockets, gain fame or appear to be doing something rather than really addressing the issues. I saw where Bono's organization only pays 1% of it's proceeds to his organizations stated cause most of the rest goes to artist salaries and etc. . Surfers get fame and an award for making a movie filming the slaughter of dolphins, but many surfers who would go to that film and cheer or even those who helped make the film will purchase surfboards made in countries that do worse to human beings. China's murder of Tibetians is a good example. How many Surfer sponsored or themed movies do we see about that? How much to the owners of these hyped up Asian made surf products give to help bring attention to that?
Some folks don't care and if they admit that. I think that's fine. No problem. At least they are being honest, but in the words of a famous character talking to a murdering Yankee commander from the movie " Outlaw Josie Wales " " Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining. "
Dialog is always a good thing, but folks do not like having to defend their points of view with facts or without calling names or insinuatinng things about the other posters motivations, intelligence or etc. It's not too bad here on Sways, but sometimes it does get out of hand.
I'm all for all views being considered and discussed. I think that is the best thing about forums. Better than almost any other medium in modern culture.
Thanks for the reminder Huck...always enjoy your post. Any post I write on these subjects is simply to see if some reading will consider a different point of view on varous subjects. Also..with the Nazis, Palestine, slaughter of Native Americans or enslavement of blacks and etc. Money always does the talking. It's the way of capitalism or power. Capitalism's god is money as much as Socialism's god is control over your personal privacy and opinions. Anything for a buck or anything to keep you from distrurbing the status quo or collective. Both have their slogans.
Who makes the parts for the Machines that cut the Surfboards regardless of location around the globe?
China, India and countries in South America are creating a working class of sorts because other already established cultures are indulging in the art of Consumption. These growing countries are happy to just have work regardless of the pay ( of which most people that are working have never been able to earn so much as a penny)
Labor will always be cheaper in growing Economies and Cultures.
Slaves NO the chance to earn a living and feed their hungry families YES
Bustin Fins Loose and Shootin Even PAR
Agreed. Activism tends to be selective. As long as the mainstream media is owned and run by corporate interests for profit, then the real news can only trickle out through non-mainstream (and therefore "suspect") sources. People base their opinions on what they think they know. Like the old saying, "the problem ain't what you don't know, its what you do know that ain't so." Just recognizing that much of what we are told, starting with our gradeschool textbooks and extending to our daily newcasts is manipulated (i.e. given spin) is a good starting point. Not pointing any fingers, just saying that's the way the world we live in functions.
F-china, and filthy duplicitous bastards that sold out. My shaping machine, nor any of my tools were made inferiorly by lil-chinamen, yearning to breath free. When I was a kid, my parents would say: “Now eat all your food because you know the children in china are starving”. With over 43 million Americans on food stamps, at least chinese parents are not teaching their kid, the the same values my parents instilled within me.
I agree with your sentiments, but when you start talking about trading with the Chinese and equating that with doing business with a regime that killed Tibetans and has a history of human rights violations, you may have lost track. Do these businesses owned by Chinese citizens actively support their government's activities? I'm sure there are quite a few businesses here in the U.S. that don't agree with many of our gov't's position on war, foreign policies, etc. My point being that when we say we're trading with "China," are we dealing with the Chinese government, or indiviual corporations that may or may not be sympathetic to their gov't's positions?
Personally, I feel we (here in the U.S.) need to be a bit more isolationist and get back to a strong manufacturing base in our own country, but the public's want/need for cheap goods supercedes this happening anytime soon and our trade deficit continues to soar. I don't like the idea of goods produced at a price so low as to make it unfair to try to manufacture it locally and be competitive. We need a more level playing field. Who's to blame? Ourselves really, everyone wants it cheap, and discounted from even the lowest price available!
I loved a post JJR made over on surfermag's forum a few years ago about the why's of surfboards remaining a relatively cheap product and staying "low tech" compared to other goods.
http://forum.surfermag.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=739667&an=0&page=0#Post739667
"
"Dude-
You are right about our glassers being low-tech. We've been surfing on foam wrapped with glass/polyester since 1960. Have bikes changed since then? Skis? Snowboards? What's up with us? Too many doobies before breakfast, man."
I can't believe people can be so in the dark, to make ridiculous comments like the one above.
It has nothing to with high tech/low tech, doobies before breakfast,soul or any other delusional thought you may come up with. It has to do with YOU the consumer, and how tight you are with your money. You'll spend hundreds and hundreds on clothes and other bling bling crap that you don't even need to actually go surfing, like traction pads, bags for this and that,sunglasses etc... but when it comes to the boards (you know that thing under your feet that brings you all that joy) people will snivel over 5 bucks. In 1982 i was getting custom made surfboards by Doug wright in melbourne florida for $240.00. Nearly 24 years later (that right 24 years) I could give you a list as long as your arm of board makers that will make you a custom board for less than $350.00. Some are even under $300.00.
Why don't they raise their prices you say? Because as soon as they do, you'll go run down the street to Joe Shmoe who's been building boards for 6 months, so you can save your precious few bucks. You want to talk about low tech? That's as low it goes. So i guess the board makers should take out loans and borrow money from family, so they can become high tech with all these new materials, re-fangle their shops, hire new employees, or re-train the ones they have, so they can sell you a (high tech)board for $300.00, and lose their ass and/or end up in the poor house right? Sounds like a great plan!
So keep calling the glassers low tech, your really on top of things! And don't forget to needle your glasser for those 5 or 10 bucks on your next glassjob to insure that there is practically ZERO profit to be made, or to be put into researching new materials.
BTW let me know if you run across anyone that will make you a custom bicycle or snowboard. You know with your name on it, your specs, and your graphics. Should cost you about 2 grand. "
JJR hit the nail on the head there!
[quote="$1"]
I agree with your sentiments, but when you start talking about trading with the Chinese and equating that with doing business with a regime that killed Tibetans and has a history of human rights violations, you may have lost track. Do these businesses owned by Chinese citizens actively support their government's activities? I'm sure there are quite a few businesses here in the U.S. that don't agree with many of our gov't's position on war, foreign policies, etc. My point being that when we say we're trading with "China," are we dealing with the Chinese government, or indiviual corporations that may or may not be sympathetic to their gov't's positions?
Personally, I feel we (here in the U.S.) need to be a bit more isolationist and get back to a strong manufacturing base in our own country, but the public's want/need for cheap goods supercedes this happening anytime soon and our trade deficit continues to soar. I don't like the idea of goods produced at a price so low as to make it unfair to try to manufacture it locally and be competitive. We need a more level playing field. Who's to blame? Ourselves really, everyone wants it cheap, and discounted from even the lowest price available!
I loved a post JJR made over on surfermag's forum a few years ago about the why's of surfboards remaining a relatively cheap product and staying "low tech" compared to other goods.
http://forum.surfermag.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=739667&an=0&page=0#Post739667
"
"Dude-
You are right about our glassers being low-tech. We've been surfing on foam wrapped with glass/polyester since 1960. Have bikes changed since then? Skis? Snowboards? What's up with us? Too many doobies before breakfast, man."
I can't believe people can be so in the dark, to make ridiculous comments like the one above.
It has nothing to with high tech/low tech, doobies before breakfast,soul or any other delusional thought you may come up with. It has to do with YOU the consumer, and how tight you are with your money. You'll spend hundreds and hundreds on clothes and other bling bling crap that you don't even need to actually go surfing, like traction pads, bags for this and that,sunglasses etc... but when it comes to the boards (you know that thing under your feet that brings you all that joy) people will snivel over 5 bucks. In 1982 i was getting custom made surfboards by Doug wright in melbourne florida for $240.00. Nearly 24 years later (that right 24 years) I could give you a list as long as your arm of board makers that will make you a custom board for less than $350.00. Some are even under $300.00.
Why don't they raise their prices you say? Because as soon as they do, you'll go run down the street to Joe Shmoe who's been building boards for 6 months, so you can save your precious few bucks. You want to talk about low tech? That's as low it goes. So i guess the board makers should take out loans and borrow money from family, so they can become high tech with all these new materials, re-fangle their shops, hire new employees, or re-train the ones they have, so they can sell you a (high tech)board for $300.00, and lose their ass and/or end up in the poor house right? Sounds like a great plan!
So keep calling the glassers low tech, your really on top of things! And don't forget to needle your glasser for those 5 or 10 bucks on your next glassjob to insure that there is practically ZERO profit to be made, or to be put into researching new materials.
BTW let me know if you run across anyone that will make you a custom bicycle or snowboard. You know with your name on it, your specs, and your graphics. Should cost you about 2 grand. "
[/quote]
Good response Surfthis. Of course I am not saying all Chinese business men like their government or that American businessmen like some of that stuff, but I do feel, being in it for money, they are indifferent to it and that by us enabling those businesses in China we are helping to enable that regime. Everything in both China and Thailand is done under government scrutiny and supervision. Period. Even some of the pro China folk that post here and who have done work over there must admit this.
What western countries claim to hold in high regard ( certainly not all Amerian business owners or ceos )...things like safe working environments, fair wages, May exist in some places in Asia, but by and large the humans that work in those factories are abject slaves. They are poor and desperate to feed their families. Many of them have a great work ethic like westerners used to and would great additions as citizens of one of the western countries, but by and large, they simply don't have a pray because they and the cheap labor they provide are the only real comodity that Asia exports.
My biggest gripe with with the do gooder F.O.S. groups within our surfing community whether it be some of the so called " Christian " Surf groups who have some need to help the poor in other countries other than their own ( easier to not answer to where the money goes that way ) while building up so called " surf legends" to market as a reason to give them an ear or money to Dolphin movie guys getting an award for their " humanitarian " efforts. They make hypocrites out of themselves when they support that side of our industry which preys not only on the simple minded fools or youth with no identy in our own country who buy into that label crap...but are also helping to take advantage of the folk in Asian countries whose only contribution to our industry is cheap labor to make a buck for some greedy or ego driven surf shop owner, rag manufacture or board builder. When they paddle out with a board built in one of the countries taking advantage of their workers...they are aligned with those regimes by default. We once put economic sanctions on Japan to push them into war and called them moral sanctions because of the way we said they were treating their neighbors in Asia. We did the same for stuff going on in South Africa and the folks in charge of South Africa were not lining fifteen year olds up against a wall and shooting them the way China does.
JJR did hit the nail on the head and I remember that thread. It's why I said most that surf are label whores or price whores and the in between is where the magic happens. The really unique part of our industry has always been the contributions of those craftsmen, retailers or surfers who not only provided products in an honest way for a fair price, but also add to the over all surfing environment whether it be in the water or on land with their varying personalities and outlooks.
Doing business in Asia is legal and profitable. Maybe that influence willl even do some good some day for the average Chinese worker, but in a hype business and a consumerist society...We have lost our way. What should be simply gettng by and enjoying life is instead...prompting folks to buy price and cheap crap through creative adertising rather than quality and truthfulness. Yes folks should be able to make up their own minds, but we know the masses are easilly manipulated to buy or believe most anything. Just look at Pet rocks or the insanity and evil of political correctness as proof. Beerfan said patriotism was the reason and I certainly do not go along with that Jingoistic type of Patriotism he is talking about, but I'll take common sense Nationalism as something good. There is nothing wrong with looking after your own first. That's why they tell you to put a mask on yourself before you do you child on airplanes.
My Momma used that "Starving chiltren in China" crap on me as well. Now an old man; I've got to where I like corn bread, but gag me with a spoon if i'll eat chicken livers and canned green beans.
Mcding, Some people have been fed crap for so long that they eventually begin to like it. Now I love liver, and canned green beans, but will never aquire a taste for chinese coolaid.
Once anything starts being mass produced, it’s value goes down. It’s a very simple law of economics. More surfers, more boards. Lemat said it… it’s a great business model to mass produce crap boards at low cost, and market them with a slick image.
I stopped buying boards a long time ago.
Good post SurfThis. I agree with most of what he said. Of course surfboards have the disposibility factor and ever changing surfer skills to keep up with. For that reason I think surfboards are in a unique product class. The drive for lighter, more manueverable boards, or just surfers that want to keep tweaking their favorite board shape to help them improve their surfing makes for a very short board life and a driving factor for the demand for cheaper boards. If you make good money and can afford to pay more for a board, you wouldn’t have much time to surf. Therefore, if you have lots of time to surf, you probably can’t afford to pay much for boards.
But whatever people’s views on China or Far East products may be, we just can’t compete with the cheap prices. It seems we don’t have much of a problem buying a drill for half of the US price, but when it’s a surfboard, that just hits a little too close to home for comfort in a cottage industry. So the reactions are definitely understandable.
These are broad generalisations that might be true in some cases.
Many of us work in fields that allow for plenty of free time to surf, yet we aren’t making minimum wage, either.
scenerio 1…in the 2- 3hrs it took to hand- shape 1 board,(a) how much waste did i cause.(b)what quality of mental energy was used in the process.(c)what did i earn…500 of my currency.
scenerio 2…in the 2-3hrs how many pre-shapes could i do.maybe 5 boards. (a) how much waste was caused,incl waste from cnc machine.(b)what was going through your head by the time you were on the 3 pre-shape ?..(c) what did you earn after blocking out 5 pre-shapes for a production shop…be lucky to earn the same for 1 handshape
the point being. at the end of the day how did you feel about your time spent at work.
…just a thought that sits in my head in the debate between handcrafting and mass production…watch out for the greed…its a sneeky snake…