Kwik Kick Tips and Tricks....Problems with laps and heavy lams?

General Discussion
1

It’s been a long time since I’ve been frustrated enough to have to
start a thread, but kwik kick has kwikly kicked my…well you get the
idea.

Let me start off by saying this is NOT going to be
another thread with someone trying to bash Greg, or RR. I’ve just been
thru every thread on the topic, and I seem to be the only one having
issues, so I figured maybe some of the sways crew can set me straight,
and maybe this can turn into a KK tips and tricks type thread.

As
a little background, I’ve been using RR fast for a least 5 years or so,
and consider myself a pretty good glasser. I have done close to 75
boards in that time, and I’m generally confident enough where I would
laminate multiple shortboards at a time, or a triple layer deck when
it’s 95 degrees here in FL on a longboard with no issues.

So with everyone so excited about KK,
I  decided to give it a go, and my results have been inconsistent to
say the least.   The problem that I seem to be having is getting
everything wet out in time, because once this stuff starts to thicken
up it just doesn’t wet out well. It seems like you have about 5 minutes
to wet out everything.

My technique is basically pouring
stripes down the length of the board following with my spreader.  All
my kk is on the deck within 30 seconds of finishing mixing. The flats
are covered(not completely wet out, but covered)within about 2 minutes.
Then I go to work on my laps. I wet out laps using my spreader and my
other hand behind the lap, a la Sammy, that way no waste on the floor.
At this point I’m  5 to 10 minutes in and the kk has gone gooey. So I
begin to tuck my laps and I notice that I still have dry spots on my
laps. with fast, where you can cover the laps on one side and by the
time you get back around to tuck them the resin has soaked in and
completely wet out the cloth. It seems with the KK, it just doesn’t
soak into the laps as well. It wets out where you put it, but nowhere
else.

Some thoughts…

I have been microwaving my resin
for 10-12 seconds (just resin, no harder) to try and get a little
better flow out of it. Is this helping or hurting?  My glassing room is
about 80-85 degrees…would it be better to just use the resin at room
temp to slow it down some?

Is my technique for laps wrong? Should I be just waterfalling excess resin of the rails as quickly as possible?

Is
anyone else finding that they are using more resin than usual? I am
using 25% more resin just to get everything wet out, and my lams have
been heavy, because it all just sits on the board. It’s hard to pull
the excess off at the end of my lamination. By that time it’s just so
thick it doesn’t want to move?

Thanks in advance for the help!

2

I don't really feel qualified to give advise, since I am such a glassing newbie.  I did, however, use KK to glass a 10' longboard recently.  I used one of Gregs tips, where I laminated the right half of the board first.  I then mixed another batch, and did the left side of the board.  The section in the middle, where the two batches overlapped, blended together nicely.  Doing it in two steps gave me plenty of time to work the resin into the laps.  I wetted out the laps using the same method that you described.

3

Swied is right … that’s a good tip and one that adds plenty of time.  At 85F you shouldn’t be needing to microwave the resin.  My guess is your pushing the stuff to the tacky stage and not giving yourself enough time.  Only use the microwave if it’s below 70.  Also, there may be something in your laminating system which is extending your time a bit and not letting you get back to the flats in time.  Maybe your trying to get the laps perfect before going back to the flats?  On my first tuck I just slam em up so the resin doesn’t drain out of em.  After finishing the flats I then go back and clean them.  We use the same amount of resin and the same methods.  But if you try some of this and are still getting beat use the half and half method.  

4

Just to hammer home the point… don’t microwave your resin in the summer… in Florida! That’s your only mistake that I can tell from your post.

To add to the “tricks and tips”… my trick to using minimal resin with KK is to pour out thin ribbons of resin, and follow with the spreader at a very low angle, almost squeezing the resin into the weave in one spreader-wide film. Getting the pour right will help you wet the cloth out evenly and will leave minimal resin to pull out after it soaks in. Pouring out wide streams of resin, and flooding the flats, will allow the resin to continue to build up exotherm, and cause you to move the resin around too much, foaming it up, floating and shifting the cloth around, ending up with too little along the rails, etc.Thin streams, uniformly spread over the entire flat, puts the right amount of resin exactly where you want it.

5

Not to beat a dead horse but I think your solution (as stated above) is as simple as quit using the microwave.

I also like NJ surfers “ribbons” advice above and will definitely go that route next time…

6

Thanks to everyone so far for the advice…

I have to say, maybe the microwave is the issue.  I was caught up with trying to get the resin to flow out better, and heat will obviously do that.  I guess since the KK has such a long “b-stage” I didnt realize how I was just thickening it up quicker…tunnel vision I guess.

Great tips so far from everyone…I definetely feel like maybe Im over saturating the flats and using thinner ribbons might help as well.

One further question to help my understanding.  KK seems to have three distinct “stages”  We can call them A, B, and C.  A is fresh out of the pot, when the resin is still flowing.  B is after the resin starts to thicken up, and C is the point at which it goes tack free and is flippable.

Does temp effect all three stages equally?  As in, adding temp would give you a shorter stage A, B and C?  For some reason I was under the impression that adding heat would shorten the B stage and the C stage, but not necessarily the A. Now that i think about it, that doesnt make sense.

Next lam I will leave the resin at room temp (80-85 F) and see how that goes, and report back.

If anyone else has anything to add please do, I’d really like to turn this into a tips and tricks kinda thread.  Some of you guys have the most ingenious methods that I would never think of…

 

7

Don’t really like laming half  the board at a time.  There is a risk of twist with one side curing before the other.  I like regular ce for laminating.  Lighter boards, and less resin.  I’ll wait for the thin version and try laming with it again.

8

Might try a smaller batch for just the flats and then a second batch for the laps.  That way the laps are freshly wet when you tuck them.  IMHO this allows for slightly better adhesion to the rails and lets you get a flatter lap.  

Good thread and Greg Tate please give us your take on this. 

regards all,

Dave  

9

Nice take Dave … Great Idea.  I like that even better.  

10

Doing two separate batches is definitely a viable option.  I just feel like I should be able to make it work with one…if I were just not able to beat it, or for a larger board like swied mentioned, its a great way to go.  But hopefully I can just improve my technique using some of the stuff posted here and get it in one batch.

Anyone else have any observations?  Greg Tate?  I know you posted the most thorough report awhile back.  Anything we are missing?  

11

     Howzit Greg, I am kind of getting a little chuckle out of this thread since before KK everyone who used RR surely wished it would kick faster and now that you have come up with an epoxy that does just that, some are thinking it kicks to fast. I give you a lot of credit for your efforts to please the epoxy board builders and hope they can learn to work with KK the way I am sure you and some others can. If I was doing boards now I would definitely want to try the KK. Off topic, my altenative medicine healer that just finished with me has told me that If I need more work then the lady to see lives in Tucson so I may be making a few trips your way if I need more work done on my body. Aloha,Kokua

12

[quote="$1"]

Don't really like laming half  the board at a time.  There is a risk of twist with one side curing before the other.  I like regular ce for laminating.  Lighter boards, and less resin.  I'll wait for the thin version and try laming with it again.

[/quote]

I've also been having problems with getting my laps wet out fully with the KK.  Its been hot in the shop, at least 85-90.  Resin is as thin as CE but with a much faster gel time.  I've been adjusting my amounts to get a better wet out of the laps.  I can get the laps almost perfect without dry spots, but I've been loosing too much resin onto the floor. 

The only way I can see around my poor poly style technique is to install a drip pan to catch the extra drips and put the resin back onto the lap.  I've seen some nice ones with saran wrap that are easy to change but I decided to go back to what I know how to do without any hassles or wasted resin.

So my last lamination with the KK I looked at my notes for resin use for a given board size and layup with the CE and guessimated how much just for the deck/bottom with no lap.  Poured out the resin, got the lam nice and tight, got the fin boxes bubble free, and pulled the extra from the field to the top of the lap so all the glass was fully wet out except for the lap.  Mixed up the remaining in a clean bucket and used the 4" short nap roller that I usually use to wet and tuck the laps.  Got the laps all wet out and tucked without any rushing, resin all over my gloves, or resin on the floor.  Best of all no dry spots.  Once the resin starts to thicken I go over the lap with the squeege one last time to flatten the lap.

13

   Howzit DMP. Papa Sau has been having problems with the KK kicking off to quick also ( but he is not a good laminator ). you shoud let him know how you are dealing with it since he can't  figure out a solution. Seems like a dbl mix is he solution in hotter climates and right now greg is in a much hotter and dryer climate than ours.Aloha,Kokua

14

You know we were testing KK last summer and I’m actually pretty fast and I was running.  I thought at the time that your average DIY might be overmatched but the pro guys were gonna fall in love.  It’s really become a mixed bag though.  Just depends on who’s doing what.  I personally love the stuff and don’t use anything else anymore.  No doubt about it though in summer you definitely have to move your ass with the stuff. No stopping for a phone call like with CE.

I’m bettin we see each other.  Call when you get to AZ … 321-223-5276

15

Twist isn’t really an issue with epoxy … There’s only a 2% shrinkage where with polyester it’s 7%.  Doing it Dave’s way though solved that issue.

16

 

Seems like the preferred method for splitting the lam is doing the flats first, laps second, rather then either side of the stringer.  This method seems like the best way to spilt it up.  I’ll have another go at it tonight, and post up my findings.  

17

Kwik Kick works wonderfully well.  Its really easy to work with for anyone who has done a few lams.  Biggest problem is leaving it the bucket too long- it starts to heat up.  Mix it to ratio REALLY WELL and get it out of the bucket and onto the board so the heat can dissipate. Nonetheless, if KK is too fast use the CE, for it gives you a bit more time.  I prefer to use plastic bondo spreaders for laminating epoxy resins.  The best is the clean up- wait till they are hard and crack off the resin, and then tune the edge with a bit of sandpaper.  If you have a compressor the cracked resin off easily but be careful for it comes off like shrapnel.  No solvents needed…  

18

Dave, thanks for the invite.  Sorry to be late.

I don’t have much to add.  Great tips here and most of what is needed has been said.   The last board I did with KK, I did as you suggest and wet the flats with the first batch and the laps with the second batch.  Actually at batch for one side of the laps and another for the other side.  I was nervous but it worked out.  Just a bit more math involved calculating the needed volumes.

My garage is usually 90 plus in afternoon when I get home, so I have been laminating in the morning at about 80 to 85 degrees.  Sufficatingly hot. Over the top hot.

Why, it’s so hot were I come from, the people have to live in other places.

GL, you must have the hottest lam temp there in AZ.  Unless you are in AC.

One tip not mentioned is having a friend help you lam the board.  I have a young friend just getting into shaping and I will use him to help on the longboard I have ready to lam.  Twice as fast.

It bears mentioning again that one of the great spin off benefits of KK is that it stays where you put it.  Particularly on the rails.  What a blessing for my poor sanding skills.

In this  summer heat, the pro laminators note that their boards are lighter because it drains/drips off.  (And conversely heavier in the winter cold).  That might be why some are seeing more resin on the floor or tray.   KK is much more resistant to dripping and you get better coverage on the rails . Perhaps your KK boards will be heavier for this reason.

If I have an ounce or two left, I will throw it in the freezer (in the bucket) and use it later in the lam if needed.  If not needed I prepare a few strips of glass on wax paper and saturate them, roll them up and freeze them for ding repairs.  Just like all the left over glass in bags, I have way too many pre-preg rolls now.  Now I’m just praying for a good sized ding.

19

Well…back with an update.  

 

The microwave was the issue.  100%.  No doubt about it.  When using fast, I had developed a habit of always microwaving the resin.  Got it to wet out great, and it kicked faster.  It saved me from waiting around to cut laps, etc.  So when I started with the KK, it was just natural to throw it in the microwave.  Ooops.  

Now I feel obligated to rant and rave about how good this stuff is.  Everything that everyone has said about KK is true.  It is phenomenal, when used the right way.  If anyone who stumbles across this thread has been scared away or put off of using KK…don’t be!  Its the real deal.  My previous issues were 100% user error, as expected.

 

I kept track of my lam pretty well, just so I could relay the info to others who might be thinking of giving KK a shot…

The lam was a double 4 oz warp-e bottom on a 7’0 hull-ish board.  shops 85 F.  I measured up 10 oz resin, 5 hardner, by volume.  Maybe half a cap of F, which I believe is about 5 cc’s.  Mix for a solid 90 seconds. Heres the play by play…

I put rice paper lams on by dipping my finger in the resin and wetting out the lams before rolling back the cloth.  The first sign that I was on the right track…the resin in the pot was cool.  The last few its been warm on my finger right off the bat.  

1 minute in…getting the resin out of the pot.  Used Nj’s trick of pouring thinner ribbons of resin, chasing with the spreader.  Super helpful…I had previously just dumped my bucket along the stringer and moved resin as need.  The thin ribbon technique used much less resin to wet out the flats, allowing me to pour the rest where I needed it.

 

2 minutes in…flats are covered.  Starting to wet out laps with my hand behind the lap, using the spreader.  No drops on the floor…ok maybe a few.

4 minutes in…got both laps wet out.  Everything looking good.  Resin still flowing nicely.  At this point in my “microwave lam” the resin was the consistency of elmers glue.

6 minutes in…Feeling good.  Everything is wet out, and I still have maybe an oz in the cup “just in case”  Going back to the flats, dragging all the excess out now while there is still time…

8 minutes in…flats are perfect.  Im working quickly but Im not really hustling too bad at this point.  Tucking the laps now.  Really Im using Greg L’s advice and just slamming them up.  Ill clean up later

10 minutes in…Laps are up.  Resin is starting to gel up a bit…not getting hard, just getting “gooey.”  The KK is at the point now where it is staying put…no runs, no drips.

12 minutes in…Im finishing cleaning up my laps.  Have plenty of time to clean up loose strings, makes sure everything is flat.  Press a bubble out at the tail with the corner of my spreader.  It stays flat.  

14 minutes in…Im done.  Just really twiddling my thumbs for the last couple minutes.  Checking everything out.  The blank gassed along one of the rails a bit.  Maybe an M&M sized bubble.  I poked it out with my finger, Ran over it with the spreader once, and its gone.

From this point, Im really just babysitting the lam, making sure no bubbles pop up.  No drips, no new bubbles.  The stuff is really just staying put.  Im stoked.  If I run the spreader across the flats at this point, it makes a noise like “zzzzzziiiiiiip”  its getting less tacky.  SHould be flip-able in the next 15 minutes or so…

 

Thats really the jist of it.  I worked quickly and beat it no problems at 85 degrees.  90, I’d be less leisurely about it.  95 I’d be hustling for sure, moving at max capacity.  Anything hotter, I’d resort to doing multiple batches for flats and rails.  

 

To all those who posted, thanks a ton for the help.  Super stoked to resolve my issue.  Sorry if this post got a little winded since I know most of you guys have this stuff dialed in already, but hopefully my play by play will encourage some guys to give it a go when they stumble upon this thread thru a search sometime down the road.

 

20

With epoxy I like to flip the laps up onto the deck, wet out and then peel off again. Don’t try and curtain laps with epoxy, unless you like making your life more difficult.