Lantor Soric Mat/Aero Veil/Rohacell

General Discussion
1

what are this things and what are they used for in a composite build and why?

seems like soric can be used in place of cork or balsa but I’m not sure if the composite is a dampener like cork or twanky springer like carbon fiber

can Roha Cell be used as HD box inserts or box strengthening structural surface plates for .75-1.0 lb eps foam?

cork is cheaper but purchased in a roll it’s much more expensive to ship cross country and across the pacific, while Lantor Soric, aero veil and roha cell probably can be shipped flat rate USPS.

2

Lantor Soric is a vacuum infusion flow media as well as a general skin bulker used to imrove resin flow and to also thicken the laminate at the same time without adding extra glass or weight.

It’s meant to be used in infusion projects to aid resin flow and bulk the skins.

Read page 6 of the Fiberglast infusion pdf… It will tell you a bit about the Soric material.

Yes… Rohacell can be used in the applications you mention with very good results… It costs more than Core-Cell M Series foam and is really about equal in performance. Only real advantage over Core-Cell is you can get the Rohacell in a white color where the Core-cell is a yellowish foam.

The Core- Cell M (marine) foam has fantastic shear elongation properties… Meaning you can flex and impact the hell out of it and it holds up well without breaking down under the laminate.

Here’s the very cool infusion link mentioning the soric fabric.

http://cdn.fibreglast.com/downloads/vacuuminfusion.pdf

And a little further off topic:

http://www.swaylocks.com/forums/corecell-vs-divinycell

If you pre-seal  the Core-Cell, D-Cell, Rohacell or whatever, with a thickened epoxy / microballoon / milled glass slurry mixture prior to laminating , you won’t get any of the “pure” resin soak up these guys are talking about in the Sway’s thread above. The exterior cells of the HD foam will be filled with a lighter/stronger sealer coat.

My local composite supplier sells the 1/32" milled fiberglass and even 1/32" milled carbon fiber in plastic containers. Buy some and add it to any epoxy sealer slurry…

Sorry for the off topic drift… It’s been a long/ hard week!

Shipping material in a flat or folded form when the material should be shipped on a roll can cause problems such as hard to flatten folds in the fabric .On a roll it’s smooth… Folded it’s a mess… I once received a shipment of 2oz. Kevlar… Folded !  You don’t ever want to try and laminate folded Kevlar onto a board!

Van.

 

3

 

** soric is cotton’’    and you will see it in most resin transfer fins f c s -futures not in surfboard lams
**

use d cell   or urathane offcuts   surfblanks blue or red    or that equivelent

**cork is finding a better purpose as a deck skin raw **

 

cheers huie

4

 

Hi Oneula,

 

Most of the things you describe are “bulk modifiers” which allow thickening of skins in composite construction.  The advantage to thicker skin can be seen in examples of simple beam theory.  Basically, if you double the thickness of the skin (say, the deck of your board) the stiffness DOES NOT double, rather the stiffness is a cubic function. “Two to the third power” or eight times stiffer.  So, panel stiffness is increased, you get rid of heel dents, etc but this also allows you to reduce the amount of fibers, density of the core/blank material, and the strength of the core in compression as well.

 

However, you must maintain a core material with good shear properties, “good” being robustness and fatigue resistance.

 

The above is the “micro” view of a surfboard (local heel dents, impact resistance,) but there is also the “macro” point of view.  The overall board is also a flexible system.  If you increase the stiffness, you drastically change the “feel” of a board.  So the desire to perhaps use the mentioned material as a core/blank material can really have alarming effects on how a board rides, compared to what we are accustomed.  That said, you can design a board in such a shape/configuration so as to “match” the building materials, (thinking Alaia, for SOLID wood construction, which rely greatly on flex to work well.  If you shaped a standard shortboard out of solid wood, imagine how it would ride…)

 

Things begin to get a bit complex when the skin becomes “extra stiff” but I believe flex can be tuned to match the build materials.  Conversely, the opposite can happen, a duplicate shape of a PU-PE board using different cores/skins/matrices will result in a totally different beast!  And be careful, a negative example (in my opinion, and I will accept responsibility for saying this,) is the early Surf Tech boards which were duplicated shapes of PU-PE boards but using PVC composite sandwich skins over a PS core, and they for the most part rode horribly.  (A few designs supported this construction, but not by intention, in my opinion…)

 

Now there are boards being made to match some of the more modern materials, and they do not look like what we’ve been riding up to now…

George

 

5

thanks all

we’ve primarily been using 1/8" wood (balsa/wiliwili/paulownia/cedar/maple) between 2oz and 4oz cloth on the deck and bottoms of our 1lb hd foam

this was primarily due to what we saw from Bert and others here back in 2003-2004

we also tried this 3/32" woven bamboo mat as a carbon fiber replacement as well

and all the 1/24" and 1/64" exotic wood and bamboo veneer timberflex stuff that Gary Young’s veneer work from the 70’s inspired us to do.

now everyone has moved on to Core cork and this new cross weave kevlar and carbon cloth and things seem to be getting more expensive for the sake of?

I’m not 100% sure

Although Stretch’s use of texalium and carbon fiber rails on his lightweight SUP’s and bamboo, cork and carbon fiber rails on his indestructable shortboards catches my eye when you envision bagging those layer on.

seems some new boards that looks like they are using soric skins being posted here lately plus there seems to be some sales going on at the composite online store on some of this stuff. 

we don’t seem to choose to make these things the normal way,

don’t really know why since it’d be allot easier

I guess that adventure spirit of experimentation that Tom Morey inspired in me in the early 70’s never went away

when you don’t care in  what your ride looks like it  as long as it works

then it really opens the door to allot of new and exciting possibilities.  

I think this video is funny, anyone want to try io try it on their board?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=hgx87FaLy2s

<iframe width=“640” height=“360” src=“http://www.youtube.com/embed/hgx87FaLy2s?feature=player_detailpage” frameborder=“0” allowfullscreen></iframe>

6

The Soric looks a lot like this: http://nida-core.com/spanish/nidaprod_nidfoam3d.htm   But they’re quite different beasts.

This is the type of skin you want if you’re looking for that sort of thing and heading in the honeycomb infusion skin direction… Not the Soric … imho.

There’s still a lot to be said for good old wood, as you and many others here realize and have mentioned many times…

The Nida 3D type of product is not cheap and the shipping costs of  the fairly large flat boxes it would come in is also a factor too…

I was a c#@t hair away from ordering some of this type of 3D foam, but I balked due to the total cost of doing so.

It’s definately cool, but I’m not sure it’s worth the cost and effort?

7

Hey Bernie,

Lantor Soric is that polyester honeycomb material I told you about years ago. Libtech is now using it top and bottom so they can infuse the board in one bagging…

8

I used some rohacell to make some glass on fins for my last bonzer.  I think it is best purposed as dielectric supports for patch antennas or light core transmission lines for space borne arrays.

9

lantor soric is cotton

i have to agree with van h      it will be nida core from 3m

 

   bernie wood is good  how about a wood springer under the cork’’    novelty?    no way

 

**  cheers huie
**

 

**
**

10

 A little off topic but:

Here’s Stretch’s latest contribution to the springer theme.

http://forum.surfermag.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=2475134&amp;an=0&amp;page=0#Post2475134

I don’t like the look of that I foam. Looks like a mangy/scruffy dog… I hear it’s hard to shape.

I  like the idea of putting the springer in the bottom and not the top. I believe the sprung plate works best in that location on the lower, flatter plane.

Didn’t Burt Burger do springers quite some time ago?

My boards are built flat with the rocker set in by the rocker table. The entire structure is “loaded” like a leaf spring.

11

I think what you stumbled upon with the Home Depot supplies turned out be a great workflow. 1" botton sheet of eps, bamboo springer, then 1.5" or 2" EPS bent to desired rocker. 1/8" to 1/4" wood rails followed by 1" XPS outer rail. Top and bottom covered with 1/16" balsa or 1/8" wiliwlili or paulownia. 4oz under balsa and 2 oz under or paulownia 4oz over to finish. Lots of bagging, so the process takes time. The final product is light and strong, especially with 1/8 balsa. Those first few we did with the wrapped rails were incredibly light. I think the bamboo strips I added for the boxes takes care of any extra strength needed under the boxes.

Been so long since we’ve been done a board, you’ve forgotten where we left off. You still have all that paulownia you had me rip for you. Use that on the top and you probably won’t have any pressure dents.

12

turbojets,

thanks and yup I still have that stuff I ordered like 6 years ago from ACP, Gave some to Charlie and we both couldn’t figure out how to use it cause it felt so “fluffy” looked like it was gonna soak allot of resin like that bamboo jersy we tried inplace of cloth.

I think you need to know how to vacuum infuse with all the proper equipment and all.

 

Huie

isn’t the missing secret is pre-prepping the wood prior to using it. The secret that Bert refuse to clue us in on that keeps his boards super light and prevent the dreaded black spotted wood syndrome you get with balsa. I think you needed one of theose big heat/pressure ovens they use in industrial sandwich building.

thre lightest strong builds I’ve felt/seen so far has been Jared’s (Shwuz) boards and a Marko/CarbonFiber 7’6" that Charlie gave me years ago.

The corecorks feel heavy in comprison to a Texalium or Carbon fiber skinned EPS blank.

 

Anyone try that hammer test on their builds like SouledOutsurf did on their new chinese made SUPs?

In the video where greg slaps his board with his palm at the community college demo of timberlflex it looked like he put a pressure in it. 

I just got an epoxy 9’0 high performance quad longboard from George Ku that weighs 4lbs, but he assumes that they screwed up on the glass job since if glassed according to his glassing schedule spec it should weight 7-9 lbs, He told me to cover it with pads to prevent pressures. But in my current physical condition 4lbs is a perfect longboard weight.

Thanks everyone  

13

hey oneula,

I think what you’re referring to is that coremat stuff…I wound up tossing the rest of that roll. It was terrible for surfboards…basically a sponge. I have to dig through our PM’s but I believe we talked about the Lantor Sanoric, when I bought it it was labeled as aeromat.

I think it’s pretty cool to play with for a couple reasons, you can use it for infusion, and secondly, I view it as a sort of mold for a honeycomb. So basically it’s purpose it to create a honeycomb of epoxy resin. In most applications I think it would be too stiff, but you can make it work.

I thought it would be cool to get some CNT additive for epoxy and use that with it…would probably be strong as hell. But, you have to factor in the money issue and the real benefit of it…

I did laminate some HD foam with it and it was strong stuff…I think I used 2oz under and 4 over, but it was a long time ago so I’m not sure. I definatley believe Libtech’s claim’s that it “damn hard to ding”

I might play around with it again soon. I just like honeycomb tech…interesting stuff…

It’s also pretty easy to work with.

 

 

14

Also just want to add that it doesn’t really “soak” that much resin, there’s some type of coating on it. As other’s have pointed out and corrected me, it’s just cotton… You will use more resin to actually fill it though. So if you’re not infusing use fillers, microballoons, or chopped fg…

If you want to try infusion, I would probably use this stuff…

I’m trying to get back into this boardbuilding thing after not really pursuing it for awhile. It’s interesting to see some of the same stuff we were playing around with years ago pop up now.

Hope everything is well over there in paradise, I have to book a flight to hawaii soon…

 

15

 

Soric can be used as a inner laminate flow media which can eliminate all the flow media/peel ply/bleeder/breather BS. Some real interesting things being done with this, as mentioned Libtech but also Coil looks to be doing something as well.  BTW Soric is a polyester non woven impregnated with microballoons same as Coremat.  We built sailboards years ago with Coremat decks.  Worked pretty good as long as we vacced it down.  Otherwise just too heavy.

Aero veil is just a non woven which has some interesting properties.  Being sold in CA by Graphite Master under the name of Skins.

Rohacell has been around forever and is awfully expensive just to have white foam. Good if you want to take your composite to very high temps though. Lotta the HI windsurf builders were using it.  Angulo for one.

 
16

yeh your right greg

it is polyester’’  my apoligee  not sure what made me think it was cotton     to many materials not enough time i guess

 

 

** cheers huie
**

17

Can you really keep the weight with vacuum bagging coremat? I’ve seen it listed at r-g.de, at 2mm thickness it weights 120g/m2 however the resin consumption is listed at 1000g/m2 which would total 1120g/m2.  I was assuming that the resin comsumption was with vacuum bagging as it doesn’t make any sense using coremat without vacuum bagging IMO. And you still need glass on the inside and outside? It’s kind of like covering the board in 2mm thick epoxy reinforced with fibers with about 10% fibers by weight (and not the other way around).

Compare that to about 20g/m3 for airex at 3mm (or double the weight to 40g/m2 and go for 6mm sandwich) or about 500g/m2 for 2mm paulownia. Granted, they may soak up some resin, but not that much. I find it hard to believe that coremat offers any advantage when it comes to strength to weight. Maybe it’s good for impact reinforcement, but there are other solutions for that too.

18

 

With my last tech i can do it: hammer still leaves traces but you need to hit hard same place about 15 or 20 time to hope penetrate lam.

I test about everything i can find in composits, and as i know an aeronautic composits parts buider i can access to many products.

But now i only use fiberglass,“custom” fillers and “custom” epoxy resin to achieve this result.

Sorry for my franglish

19

 

    yea its common reference is wood

 

 cheers huie

20

Lemat,

15 to 20 hits with a hammer, before you penetrate?!!!  Not to disrespect the claim, but that must be a pretty soft hammer strike.  I’m  a framing carpenter, and I can break concrete with 15 to 20 hard hammer strikes.

Do you have any more detail on this impact test?