Low Balling

Since the recent developments of Clark Foam disappearing, one of the ugly things about this industry has once again raised it’s head. Low Balling.

You people who are trying to exist in this industry or should I say off this industry that see a need to always be the lowest price are one of the reasons the surfboard building side of it has never allowed shapers to make enough money to continue experimentation and stay long term in this business. The few that have are simply a testiment to their love of the craft.

I am a consumer myself and I have no problems with low price if what your selling is actually the same quality product that is being produced at a lower price because of some invention etc. you may have created, but that has simply not been the case with surfboards or surfboards blanks in all too many cases.

I see many folk on the internet taking shots at other surfboard builders and foam makers by claiming to sell blanks for a lower price than some of their fellow boardbuilders and foam producers. It’s the back yard lowballer, chinese import mentality thats killing this industry and every customer that buys that crap and claims to care about this industry and having custom orders available long into the future are simply misguided parasites looking for a deal.

In fact, “the deal” is whats going to do in you board builders and foam makers that buy into the Walmart mentality.

You have an opportunity right now to actually improve your craft and take more control of your industry from the sellout Surf shops Department stores and those whose main source of surfboard income is derived from popouts, back yard low ballers and chinese imports. If you do not charge what your worth and educate (which means selling to some degree) the surfing public on why your products are better and different than the low ballers your going to continue to fall prey to the promoters of a quick buck like the ones claiming the lowest price of foam and surfboards. You will deserve your fate, because there is a bare minimum you can make something for and sell it for to pay yourself and all your bills and keep the doors open. If someone actually creates something superior at a cheaper price and can stay in business long term that way, then so be it, but I think many of us have seen how that turns out in the long run.

As for the consumers who may read this; when you see boards or foam blanks advertised as lower than the competition, you may want to consider, that if all someone has is the lowest price, very often they don’t really have much.

A Mercedes Benz is simply a better built care than a Kia. The Kia has four wheels and rolls and is worth sometimes less than half what you paid for it when you drive it off the lot, yet you can buy a used Benz with high miles that will go on another 100,000 miles and actually still be worth a little something. Not to mention it will be safe and tons more fun to drive and will probably still be around when Kia is out of business or upgraded to charge close to the same thing as the Benz.

If you don’t care whats under your feet on a wave, or the quality of craftmanship that goes into the production of the board your riding then please by all means buy a chinese import, a popout or a backyard built low balled surfboard. If your a builder and are not willing to try and find the best products on the market and pay for the research someone else has done before you on foam products, then you will be a victim at some point and probably out of business. Old habits die hard, but the new surf industry world it appears is going to filter out some folks. Many of those folks that have existed off the industry for awhile are simply going through death throws of their final gasp by lowballing their competition. Consumers don’t know about much of this and don’t care unless you can educate them why your products are better.

Not all surfboards are the same and neither are all foam or styrofoam blanks. Ask your shaper to explain the difference and been keen for catch words and phrases such as lower, more for, as good as, the latest, and the granddaddy…we care about our customers enough to charge the lowest possible price.

Good things in surfboards aint cheap and Cheap things are rarely good.

Some products have years of experience and experimentation behind them and many that produce those products have found and corrected the pit falls. Thats what your buying from a true craftman or retailer who knows what he is selling and is in the sport for more reasons than making buck and telling all his friends he owns a surf shop.

I typed this really quick, so sorry for spelling errors.

What address can I send my price list to you to see if it’s ok?

Also I give 10% discounts to walmart employees. Is that allowed?

The worst low baller market controller was your hero G Clark.

Get over it, adapt to the change or change careers. Walmart is a major employer in the U.S.

I know, a container of pu foam is on the way and it will all be alright in the morning. Those back yard low ballers are just pure industry destroyers.

More evidence by your post the reality of world market competition just hasn’t sunk in yet.

I hope you can find more solutions to your problems rather than excuses.

CMP,

You sure didn’t understand what I was writing at all. Clark was no hero of mine. I don’t like monopolies. I agree with your take of the man, from the many boardbuilders I know. I think when it’s all said and done, we may find none of this was anyone’s fault. He simply cashed out and planned it down to the exact time. If the stories of people getting cancer from his factory are true because of the way he ran his business, I hope they put him in jail for the rest of his days. He seemed pretty flippant about that if that letter posted here was actually from him. I will give him credit where it’s due though.

I am also a free trader and believe in the market determining the price, but I don’t believe in abject slavery, child labor, low wages and workers being under the literal yolk of their employer because of the lack of jobs. Yet, many who may agree with those things being bad and wanting to hold a liberal view of everything else, don’t mind buying their surfboard from a country that mistreats it’s people. There is no way around some of it, but something I have a choice of buying like a board, isn’t going to come from there. There is an opportunity to improve the industry and make it so those that have put years of their lives into it can actually get something long term and better out of the deal. This is just my view, no one needs to get my permission for doing anything, but I do see alot of un prepared people crying about something they could have done something about all along. Instead, almost everyone took the easy route.

I am not a board builder, but I owned a surf shop which my board builder (who is one of the best) had his factory in the back. I have been around this about 30 years. I have seen the local giant surf shop in town buy surfboards from sub par shapers, china or anywhere else he could get them and sell them as the same as the boards we were producing or those I imported from Hawaii, California and Australia and that simply was not the case. He bought them to drive down the price or force the local good shaper to deal with him and make it that all surfboards are the same. Now he buys up the moulds from one of the popout companies ( moulds created from good shapers designs) puts his name on them as if he is the shaper and none of the shapers say anything about it and keep looking for, “the deal.” The next popout, “deal”. Now you have the same junk going on with blanks etc. I don’t care what the world market is doing, and frankly, If will not really cause me to lose any sleep if the shapers want to sell their lively hood out to china and dept. store surf shops. It’s going to cost them in the long run. I am never going to sell cheap junk or deal in lowballs to get my business. I think Straight talk and customer service are worth something and I have a few other ways to make a living. IMHO.

I have no problem with guys building boards in their backyards, nor good shapers operating out of their backyards if it’s legal. But there is a difference in that and a novice shapers putting his shapes on the rack of a shop that knows better and sitting right next to a Philips, Coda, Terry Martin, or etc. as if they are the same thing, only a lower price. The guys trying to make a business out of their craft, that buy insurance, pay rent on a nice factory building and etc. deserve to be able to compete on a level playing field. In any other industry, the backyarder would be shut down by the authorities for not playing by the rules.

Re read my post…you will see that I am a capitalist, but I also love this sport and certain parts of this industry. Call it elitist, but it used to be how most that gained experience felt. Somewhere along the way, we allowed the kuks in and allowed them to remain kuks and become the money changers of the industry. I guess cash will buy you into most anything.

I know people with no experience talking about getting into the foam and surfboard business. Most will not make it, but they will sure muddy the water for awhile.

Thanks for your response. I respect that you have your own view and are willing to voice it.

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What address can I send my price list to you to see if it’s ok?

Also I give 10% discounts to walmart employees. Is that allowed? You have my permission my son. You may give discounts to as many as you wish, if think it will keep you in business.

The worst low baller market controller was your hero G Clark. Agreed.

Get over it, adapt to the change or change careers. Walmart is a major employer in the U.S. Your singing my tune…my other post said as much. However, Walmart does not always play by the rules. They show up in towns and sell for less than local businesses can buy for and when they are all gone, go right back to normal price. Thats a preditor, that needs to be delt with. I don’t give a hoot if they are the major employer of $6.00 hour jobs and I never said they don’t have the right to exist, but I feel I have an equal right to nail them, when I think they do wrong and influence as many people I know as possible. Thats the American way. As big as Walmart is, just as Big have fallen. I try and not give them a dollar of my earnings. In many cases I would just as soon give it to the panhandler on the side of the road. As for adapting. I already have. Fortunately, I have more than one way to make a living.

I know, a container of pu foam is on the way and it will all be alright in the morning. I guess the question will be…how long will it last and will it during the heavy season. Those back yard low ballers are just pure industry destroyers. Well they are not all created equal…but many are parasites that are not operating legitimate business for the reasons I discribed.

More evidence by your post the reality of world market competition just hasn’t sunk in yet. Exactly what do you know about the reality of world market competition. I will be happy to listen to a lesson on it. Seriously. I have an open mind, if I can be convinced using critical thought and not emotion. There are many ways to compete with the so called world market competition. Being the absolute best at what you do, to where there is no question about it…is one way.

I hope you can find more solutions to your problems rather than excuses. First, I don’t need solutions. I am still selling the same products I always have from the very best in the industry. Second, I have no problems because of this and I don’t think I made excuse one in my post. I simply typed my opinion on a certain subject. Take it or throw it away. I still appreciate your response.

The solution has been around for years. It’s called eps epoxy surfboards. RF sold 80,000 pop out versions last year which sold at a controlled high price and brought 30% mark up profit for surf shop owners. Do you sell surftechs? Lots of your peers in the industry sell them. Does phillips, coda, terry martin have any surftech models?

the strange part is you mention those shapers names and they have no significance to me. I know this is a testimony to my ignorance, but it does suggest regional popularity makes the shaper. I did business with a well known shaper who from 1993-2003 was able to raise the price double for him to shape a blank for me. Why? cuz in 1993 his novice shapes sitting next to the “real shapers” who “deserve” the business got regongnized to work well and were a bit cheaper. Now the novice shapes are next to his and for him to complain would be just whinning. I can name this same scenario for 10 other shapers also. Run your shop the way you want.

Fair playing field? The legal, and I mean legal, board manufacturer with 4 cnc machines has eliminated more shapers careers than all novice shapers board next to a rack. There was a day when you needed four shapers to keep up with one glasser. Now there is a glasser shortage. For the illegal operations which is basically any polyester operation outside of a factory setup, should follow the rules. But if your not willing to turn them in, who will? Shame on you if it’s ruining your famous shaper friends business and you aren’t willing to really do something about it.

Slave wages and slave labor? How much you paying your counter girl? minimum wage equates to a slave wage to U.S. standards. The idea is for a company to make money not lose it.

Ambrose said it best. Selling a new board for a can of beans is a deal if you need the beans. If you have the luxury to wait and get $1000.00, then wait. Everybodys situation is different. Could you imagine me complaining how you put sunglasses and swim suits on special which took sales away from my shop?

I read your post carefully. You are a capitalist at times but it’s only a free market when we play by all your many rules and courtesies owed to those artisians called shapers. Give me a break, it’s only a surfboard. My hat is off to the soldier, garbage man, water company and sewer guy and all those who make electricity come to my house. Wow, funny thing is they are the ones who buy boards from me.

Quote:

The solution has been around for years. It’s called eps epoxy surfboards. RF sold 80,000 pop out versions last year which sold at a controlled high price and brought 30% mark up profit for surf shop owners. Do you sell surftechs? Lots of your peers in the industry sell them. Does phillips, coda, terry martin have any surftech models? Yes, I have had some dealings with Surftech…they play the same distribution game as Quik and the rest. They protect the big shops (which I used to be) I don’t want them and I don’t like the way they ride. I make up for the lack of mark up profit by selling more surfboards and giving good experienced advice and taking good care of my customers. I also enjoy selling the boards of those shapers I deal with, Geoff Mccoy , Steve Forstall, Jeff Bushman and Ricky Carroll. There are hundreds of other great shapers out there and many of them are the home grown variety.

the strange part is you mention those shapers names and they have no significance to me. I know this is a testimony to my ignorance, but it does suggest regional popularity makes the shaper. I did business with a well known shaper who from 1993-2003 was able to raise the price double for him to shape a blank for me. Why? cuz in 1993 his novice shapes sitting next to the “real shapers” who “deserve” the business got regongnized to work well and were a bit cheaper. Now the novice shapes are next to his and for him to complain would be just whinning. I can name this same scenario for 10 other shapers also. Run your shop the way you want. You make a good point here. I should have clarified what I meant better. Some shapers who have only been shaping a few years, simply have the touch and many of them had the training prior to taking up shaping on their own. I am not necessarilly a fan of the with it “in” shaper. I think those would be Merrick and Lost and I frankly don’t think either of them are worth the money they charge, because your average toothpick surfboard doesn’t last more than a year or two with light glass jobs and mass production. The shapers I mentioned were just off the top of my head and your right some of them are regional. Another thing I love about the surfboard business. I suspect you know the phillips though. That would be Jim Phillips. My support is for the custom board builder, not really the name board builder. I just don’t care of imported chinese stuff, popouts or cheaply made novice boardbuilder surfboards. Novices, that don’t have it, but simply know how to turn the rails on an easy to shape blank.

Fair playing field? The legal, and I mean legal, board manufacturer with 4 cnc machines has eliminated more shapers careers than all novice shapers board next to a rack. There was a day when you needed four shapers to keep up with one glasser. Now there is a glasser shortage. For the illegal operations which is basically any polyester operation outside of a factory setup, should follow the rules. But if your not willing to turn them in, who will? Shame on you if it’s ruining your famous shaper friends business and you aren’t willing to really do something about it. Actually, the famous shaper friends you crassly mention, need to worry about staying in business themselves. I am expressing ideas and make no claims to be the guru of the surfboard industry. I will leave that to Surfer magazine who likes to list the most important people in surfing (which is truly a joke) Your bud, R.F. is right at the top of the list with his 80,000 popout sales. Sold mostly with hype. No, I am not turning anyone in. That stuff works itself out. Just like the Clark sitution will.

Slave wages and slave labor? How much you paying your counter girl? minimum wage equates to a slave wage to U.S. standards. The idea is for a company to make money not lose it. Yes, and my counter girl (not) doesn’t depend on that for a living. She or he would be a part time school kid needed to keep theft to a minimum. I have usually chosen to have a well paid manager plus myself instead. Yes, I think companies should make profit and profit is not dirty word. You will never hear me make that claim. However, China has murdered 30 million of it’s own people of the last 60 years and continues to have one of the worst human rights violations on record. However, the liberals within our industry have no problems spewing about the environment or how their fellow human beings are treated, while at the same time supporting chinese imported surf junk. if it don’t make sense,theres a buck in somewhere. Most folks morals change when money is involved. I would have no problems with some capitalist if they would simply say, anything for a buch and be done with it. The hypocrisy is hard to swallow.

Ambrose said it best. Selling a new board for a can of beans is a deal if you need the beans. If you have the luxury to wait and get $1000.00, then wait. Everybodys situation is different. Could you imagine me complaining how you put sunglasses and swim suits on special which took sales away from my shop? Not the same thing I am writing about, but good try. Try putting volcom on sale and you will get a call from home office sqawking about devaluing their cheaply made in china overpriced junk Brand. Youth against establishment. Irony coming from part of the establisment.

I read your post carefully. You are a capitalist at times but it’s only a free market when we play by all your many rules and courtesies owed to those artisians called shapers. I am a capitalist all the time, but like we found out at the first turn of the century, capitalism does need some checks on it. Otherwise it turns into totalitarianism. All we have to do is look at the direction our own country is headed. Give up your civil liberties, believe jingoistic jingles and anything for a buck, Cause a buck is what puts most in power. Give me a break, it’s only a surfboard. No argument from me here, but I want customs from good shapers and not hyped up made by people that don’t surf stuff from the orient. You buy it if you want it. I will pass. My hat is off to the soldier, garbage man, water company and sewer guy and all those who make electricity come to my house. Wow, funny thing is they are the ones who buy boards from me. OK…how that relates, I can’t figure yet, but it sounds good.

Solo:

Deep thoughts. But, that’s the price of living in a free country. Its not perfect, but its pretty good. People who work in the surf industry only do it because they want to. How many rats in a cubical, 8 to 5 can say the same thing.

Cheers!

Good one on that shine. Having been a rat in a cubical. I would rather have less money and do what I like.

S

My writing is purely idiology. Nothing more.

I started as a backyard shaper and glasser like most older shapers in the industry. The main reason I began building boards was that the surf shops sold and some continue to sell inferior surfboards which are produced with the lowest production materials possible. How many boards are made with S-cloth in your shop? Are you using real gross coat resin (pink tint) or are you using the silmar 249A (1/4 the price) just polished to 2000 grit as your gloss coat? You drop names but are they always using quality materials?

I totally agree, now is the time to get the fair market value for a custom surfboard. But the customer needs education to ask the right questions. The surf shops need to not low ball the shapers. Fight the price on the sticker. These are hand made products which if done well take 25 hours blank to wax.

You should raise the price today.

Quote:

I started as a backyard shaper and glasser like most older shapers in the industry. The main reason I began building boards was that the surf shops sold and some continue to sell inferior surfboards which are produced with the lowest production materials possible. How many boards are made with S-cloth in your shop? Are you using real gross coat resin (pink tint) or are you using the silmar 249A (1/4 the price) just polished to 2000 grit as your gloss coat? You drop names but are they always using quality materials?

I totally agree, now is the time to get the fair market value for a custom surfboard. But the customer needs education to ask the right questions. The surf shops need to not low ball the shapers. Fight the price on the sticker. These are hand made products which if done well take 25 hours blank to wax.

You should raise the price today.

Your speaking my language. Certainly there is no way to know about some of the stuff you mentioned, but I have always tried to deal with the best, though I have been guilty as any of buying into the name brands. I used to carry a major H.B. shapers boards. One of my team guys snapped the nose off duck diving. I was there to see it. I saw Merrick’s post over on surfermag. All I have to say is, Uhh Huh.

Many shops will and many already have, jump to the popouts and chinese made. I will continue buying from Australia and my other shapers as long as they are in it, just like I don’t shop at Walmart to save a few measly bucks and support my local economy at the same time.

…Carminesurf, s cloth is not that good in many applications…also it have blemishes…

I have not had many blemishes with s-cloth and it has a 25-30% increase in structure even over the worp bias e-cloth. Mixiing the E and S cloth is great but expensive. The e-cloth is half the price and only a 1/4 to 1/3 the strength but quality should be the goal. But we cann’t get people to pay the price. I am also happy that low tolorence Clark blanks are over now- you need an eye to shape because the skin it and glass it mentality is over. Skill will rule the day.

Howzit reverb, Those blemishes are there because S cloth isn’t steam cleaned like e or warp glass. The steam cleaning is what removes blemishes but also weakens the cloth. Some people don’t like using S cloth but I really like using it.Aloha,Kokua

I’m just starting out as a backyard shaper and I have no intention of making a million bucks off my boards. But there is one thing that I do have the intention of doing, and that’s making a quality board. Not for the purpose of selling it to the highest bidder, but for the satisfaction of making something that is reliable and worthwhile for not only myself but for also my kids to ride. We love to surf and I can’t think of a more worthwhile legacy to leave to my children other than the opportunity to feel a wave behind you pushing you towards the shore. Even more important is that the board they’re riding was made by their Dad. This to me is the soul of surfing. I can only say that I am amazed at what is being produced in China and Thailand and for pennies on the dollar compared to the effort of my backyard work. It completely lacks soul and is devoid of life. 25 hours from blank to wax?? When I’m putting my soul into something I hope takes more time. If it makes it to a surfshop I hope it brings a price worthy of my effort.

And your not helping to support a totalitarian country that horribly treats it’s people.

…Kokua, I think the best is the mix between e and s clothes (s only for the first deck layer)not warp glass. I dont like w glass (Hexel) wrapped down the rails…is not better than e…

Howzit reverb,I don’t care for or use Hexel since it’s what I calla limp type of glass. I buy JP Stevens glass which is stiffer and easy to work with. There used to be another glass called Clark Scweible ( spelling) that was good but Hexel bought them out . Thinking of trying aeralight glass if the price is right. I always used S for both layers since I really like working with it, to bad it’s so expensive. We were lucky a few years back when we got a roll of S for $100 from a guy leaving the island, he also sold his Skill 100 for $100 to a shaper friend, what a score that was.Aloha,Kokua

Kokua…

last few boards i used Aerialite cloth.

Definitely feels a bit different from standard E cloth. I’ve only used S cloth once and decided that it was not worth the price and that was several years ago so I can’t really compare it to that.

Aerialite is easier to work with than standard E cloth. It certainly drapes better and wets out a little better. It also folds over rails smoother and doesn’t seem to drift ocne lammed. One thinng I did notice was that after the lam cured, the texture was more, how shall I say it, the weave was more pronounced…nah, thats not it…it was coarser to touch than what I was used to. One more thing the strands did seem to want to pull away from the overhang when glassing. I had to trim up mroe danglkers than I wanted to. I am at the point now wher I rarely get any so it was a bit of a surprise for me.

But still worth it in my opinion.

I’ve only hotcoated the boards and only one was a clear lam, so I can’t say one way or the other for their “whiter” claim.

Drew

i was just on ebay and there were surftech style boards, with bag, fins, leash, traction pad for $250 + shipping… is this low balling

maybe not used…but I think it is lowballing. Surftechs cost $430 for shorties.