My Retro is a little too Loose - I Want to Reset the Fins

General Discussion
1

Greetings All.  I’m looking for a little advice on how to tighten up my ride.  I surf like the average surfer, not straight but I don’t rip either.  I recently made a nice 6’0" Retro Fish with single foiled fiberglass fins from FOAM EZ.  The board rides well, but is a little too “squirrelly” for me.  I’m very tempted to hack off my glass on fins and reset them.  Presently, they’re 6.5" up from the tail, toed 1/8" with a 4 degree cant.  I want to stiffen the ride a little, but there are a few very critical variables to play with here.   Also note that I’ll probably move the fins up about 1-1.5" b/c my back foot tends to be a little forward.  I researched my brains out in the swaylocks archives, but there is almost too much info to sort through, that’s where I got my initial fin location from.  I’m hoping there is someone who had a similar problem to mine and fixed it.  As I see it I can do the following to stiffen the ride a little:

1.  Remove the toe 1/8" and keep cant at 3-4 degrees.

2.  Keep the toe and reduce/remove all the cant.

3.  Keep the present fin locations and add a trailer fin using my probox set up…but that adds drag and reduces the speed.

4.  I also have the probox system which I really want to use, but I am just a little hesitant to set the boxes, b/c when I do, the toe will be fixed forever, but then I can play with the cants and fin placement (forward / backward placement) a little.  There’s also the fact that I don’t know which fin to use with it. If I glass it, at least I can hack it off again if needed.

It’s been a blast to shape this board and even ride it, but I’m just looking to make it ride as I initially hoped it would.  Any recommendations would be appreciated.  Thanks.

 

Postman

2

Hi postman,

Thats the first time I've read a complaint about fishes being too loose.  Usually the opposite.  I'm not familiar with your fins.  Your placement is within the typical range for your board, I believe. You could cut them off and install Lokbox.  This would give you a quarter inch or so of for/ aft adjustment and there are many cool keel fins for this system.  Sometimes boards just don't work well for a given individual, however. This gives you the opportunity(excuse) to build another.  Mike

3

[quote="$1"]

Greetings All.  I'm looking for a little advice on how to tighten up my ride.  I surf like the average surfer, not straight but I don't rip either.  I recently made a nice 6'0" Retro Fish with single foiled fiberglass fins from FOAM EZ.  The board rides well, but is a little too "squirrelly" for me.  I'm very tempted to hack off my glass on fins and reset them.  Presently, they're 6.5" up from the tail, toed 1/8" with a 4 degree cant.  I want to stiffen the ride a little, but there are a few very critical variables to play with here.   Also note that I'll probably move the fins up about 1-1.5" b/c my back foot tends to be a little forward.  I researched my brains out in the swaylocks archives, but there is almost too much info to sort through, that's where I got my initial fin location from.  I'm hoping there is someone who had a similar problem to mine and fixed it.  As I see it I can do the following to stiffen the ride a little:

1.  Remove the toe 1/8" and keep cant at 3-4 degrees.

2.  Keep the toe and reduce/remove all the cant.

3.  Keep the present fin locations and add a trailer fin using my probox set up...but that adds drag and reduces the speed.

4.  I also have the probox system which I really want to use, but I am just a little hesitant to set the boxes, b/c when I do, the toe will be fixed forever, but then I can play with the cants and fin placement (forward / backward placement) a little.  There's also the fact that I don't know which fin to use with it. If I glass it, at least I can hack it off again if needed.

It's been a blast to shape this board and even ride it, but I'm just looking to make it ride as I initially hoped it would.  Any recommendations would be appreciated.  Thanks.

 

Postman

[/quote]

 

Hi Postman, How is the drive on the board, which would dictate if you need to change Toe at all? Is the inside of your Fish fins leading edge sharpe? If so take the sharpe inside edge and round it first on the glass ons about a 1/8" and ride the board again. This should take out some of the squirrelly feel.

Mahalo,Larry

4

Thanks Rooster and Larry.  Larry, I’m going to first try what you suggest, seems like the easiest option. I think the drive is fine, and I doubt therefore slight toe probably doesn’t make too much of difference.  Larry, if I do go probox eventually, which fin/s would I use.  I think of my fish as a modern retro, also which cant insert?   

5

[quote="$1"]

Thanks Rooster and Larry.  Larry, I'm going to first try what you suggest, seems like the easiest option. I think the drive is fine, and I doubt therefore slight toe probably doesn't make too much of difference.  Larry, if I do go probox eventually, which fin/s would I use.  I think of my fish as a modern retro, also which cant insert?   

[/quote]

 

Hi Postman, I would use the DP keel like in the pic below with 0 or 4 degree depending on bottom contour.. Here's a pic of a retro Bushman Fish glas-on to a Quad with ProBoxes. This board was sent to me from Hawaii to convert. I did this board so the rider could go back to the orginal set up as a Fish then optional to a Quad. So this board performance was the same as Jeff Bushman started with using Glass-ons.

Mahalo,Larry

 

 

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6

Thanks Larry, that’s a beautiful job you did on that board.

7

G’day Postman, moving twin fins up the board makes it more squirrely and you might find that your back foot moves even further up the board to compensate.

8

MrJ,

Thanks bro, that’s something I didn’t realize.  It must be the cant/toe combo.  Peace.

Postman

9

Your problem is the toe-in.    Set your fins at zero toe.       Zero cant is not a bad idea either.   Trust me, I did the study in 1970.    There is quite a bit more to it than my simple answer might imply, but I'm not in the mood to write a term paper on the subject.   Make the above changes, and you will get the ride sensation you are after.

10

Bill.

I was considering the toe a lot when researching fin position.  My goodness, there are sooo many possibilities with the fins as I found out in the achives.  I appreciate you recommendation, it’d give the maximum drive similar to the older retros.  I solve problems real slow, therefore I really like all the responses, it gives me a lot to mull over.  Maybe no toe and less than 4 degrees cant would be the perfect combo. Probox Larry has a retro blog working now at http://www.probox-larryretrofits.blogspot.com/.  Man does he make it look easy.  I would love to try no toe with a probox, then mess around with the cants, but I’ve never hacked off a fin yet and am leary of causing damage to the glass and foam below.  All in time.  Thanks Bill, Larry, MrJ and Rooster for your inputs, plus others who have reached me via PM.  I appreciate your help.

11

If you really want to solve this for yourself, install 4 ways so you can vary the toe.

12

postman, I will offer you my advice. Try and round the leading edge of your fins like Larry suggested and see what happens. It might take a few sessions to feel the diffrence especially if the surf is not cooperating. 2) If you decide to put in a fin system I would definitely go with Pro-box, their is no other fin system that can match the options that pro-box offers. Go and look at modern retro fishes and i doubt if you will find any with out some toe in. I have been riding retro modern fishes since '98 and have boards by Larry Maibles, John Belik, John Carper, Van Stralen, Bushman, Harold Iggy to name a few. They all are toed-in.

Like the other post said the farther up your fin placement the farther forward you foot placement will be. Optimally you want your back foot to be right above your fins or a inch or two in front of your fins. Watch Tom Curren ride his Frye fish a J-Bay on Searching for Tom Curren if you can. Look at his foot placement. By the way that is my bushman in the photos Larry put up. Set-up for Keel fin or Twinzer.............Surfing since '69 and still enjoying the ride!

13

Thanks Mike.  I’m not too familiar with 4 ways but it sounds really cool.  It sounds like the ultimate way to dial in the fins.

Colins.  I appreciate your advice.  What Larry suggested is the simplest possible fix to the situation.  I’ll give it a try on my next surf.  Out of curiosity, what are the toe and cants of those boards you mention if they are available to measure.  I’m trying to get some idea of the most common fin combinations.  Thanks!

14

You’re foot should be directly over the leading edge of the fins. Keep in mind that you should also be able to pick your foot up and move it for and aft and side to side, as you ride. I’m always moving my back foot around on wide-tailed boards.

As for breaking off your fins, moving them back will take the squirrelyness out, but so will taking out the toe and cant. If you take out the toe-in, you’ll also get a faster board down the line more speed through turns. The down side is losing the “skatey” loose feeling you get with toed in single foiled fins. If you take out the cant, you lose some lift under your back foot, which is you might miss in small, mushy surf. If you move the fin back, you’ll get more drive, but less sensitivity.

All said and done, adjustable fin systems let you experiment and dial in the different factors so that you learn first hand what each change does, all other factors remaining constant.

Seems like a no-brainer to me.

15

[quote="$1"]

What Larry suggested is the simplest possible fix to the situation.  I'll give it a try on my next surf.  [/quote]

I'm not doubting Larry's suggestion but the simplest solution is to move your back foot forward a wee bit. Makes all the diff in the world. You can do this by simply narrowing your stance. If it still doesnt work reset the fins to your liking.

16

NJ,

i couldn't agree with you more...

i found this particular discussion interesting...

in fact i noticed from many discussions the same common thread coming through.

so many shapers are wondering where their fins should be for each board thay make...

i would really like to clarify this as this may help Postman a bit before he embarks on his fin alteration....

1) no 2 surfboards are identical

2) no 2 surfers are identical,

3) just to top this off, surfers are constantly evolving and changing to their influences or age or surf conditions...

4) surf conditions vary from surf to surf...

 

i could go on and on, but the stark reality is that we are expecting our boards to perform instantly,

the only way this can be achieved after the board is shaped, glassed etc, is by having adjustability in your fin set-up.

 

Be it pro-box /lokbox or 4WAYS, either of them are going to give you a huge advantage over any other "static" fin system

 

as for your situation Postman, the easiest is to round the leading edges, but my experience tells me otherwise , that those fins need to be moved back.

 

and if that stiffens up too much then try increasing the splay, it will be amazing at the difference.... ask Larry for advice with your boxes and different splay inserts, ok.

 

just for your reference, 4 WAYS can change TOE-IN or OUT ....

 

in fact the patented 4WAY fin system is the only system in the world that can change every aspect of fin movement.

 

not to mention our soon to be released offset discs which can move the fins closer to the rails or deeper in if needed.

 

now that's a world FIRST!

 

thanx guys,

 

Best regards

 

Deano

17

Gentlemen, thanks for the recent posts.  I’m not sold on my fin set up and expect more out of my retro fish.  I’m new to riding retros regularly and it is a different feel.   My main experience has been with the traditional 3 fin thruster.  NJ, thanks for breaking it down, I’ll be rereading your advice over again, weighting the variables.  Crafty, I think you’re correct in that I need to be extremely aware of my foot position, reminding myself to push my foot backwards more.    4wfs, 4way sounds really amazing, like the holy grail, but for now I have the probox install jigs and router bit, so I’ll stick with that. I do agree that 4wfs brings up a good point, there are other variables besides just the fins toe and cant.

Before I probox, ultimately I’ll need decide the toe issue, which I may just leave at 1/8".  All your advice is amazing.  As 4wfs said, there are just so many variables, especially no 2 surfers surf alike.  I think the adjustable system is probably the way to go.  Thanks for all your help guys.  When I retro fit my board, I’ll take some pictures to share with you all.  This may be soon or down the road a few months, as I have 3 kids under 3, so I’m a busy Dad.  For now, I’ll mess around with the basic rounding of the fins and simply placing my foot back really far, perhaps that will give me the feel and drive I’m looking for.  Peace.

 

Postman

18

[quote="$1"]

...but the simplest solution is to move your back foot forward a wee bit. [/quote]

19

Part of it COULD just be what you summarized right there… when I first surfed a retro twin fish I felt like it was way too slippery. But using twin fins is a whole different trip and depends on using the rail in a very different way than when surfing thrusters (I find; I am NOT a very experienced surfer compared to most on this forum, I should point out!!!). The biggest thing for me was learning to surf off the rail vs off the fins, and the second was learning to shift my back foot around more (side to side AND front to back).

This might be pointlessly obvious; just thought I’d fire it out there since you said you were new to that style of surfing. Those were big adjustments for me when I first surfed my twin fin and it took me a while to realize what I had to do to make that fish come alive. Now for the past year I’ve surfed it more than any of my other boards!

Hope it all comes together! Nothing more fun than playing with fins and actually FEELING the results.

PS Larry I had a great session on the quad that Robin helped me out with; tweaked the fins forward and backwards and together and apart, could really feel the differences and managed to find the perfect setting, just enough slip to snap hard and slide the tail but enough hold to control it. Great drive in the ESC quad setup!

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Zero!