I built mine with a technic inspired from Paul Jensen’s method and the strip-planking method often used to build western red cedar canoes. Main difference with Paul’s approach is that I don’t use a building jig and that rails are hollow and strip planked the same way as the hull.
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…unlike the ‘kookbox’ HWS method and its variants, which don’t allow much flex at all.
True… At least mine are, but I like them that way…
Paul
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Id be interested in building a hollow wood at this stage but would like to try something different and possibly lighter maybe in with guitar style bracing, quatersawn cedar or fir. with a glass fibre or carbon reinforcement.
is this concept way off the mark or has anyone tried these concepts in any of their builds?
What you speak of, is how I’ve done mine for years…
A battle between wooden surfboards’ builders?
Already made by popular mechanics in the 60’… with a picture of Paul Jensen, Roy Stewart and RichieB engaged in a fierce battle … LOL 
Sorry guys I couldn’t resist…
(downloaded from www.svensons.com/boat/ http://www.svensons.com/boat/?f=MechanixIllustrated/BattleSurfBoards/BattleSurfBoards1.jpg)
By the way a big thank to the wooden builders, you have been a great source of inspiration for me and a bunch of other swaylocks’ lurkers, even in France. I plan to make my first woodie…old school noserider 9.10*23, plywood frame and maybee pine skins I’d like to make it without glass and epoxy, just 9 or 10 layers of good marine varnish.
Let’s keep the co-operative spirit…
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Richie
what’s a “thin kerfing blade” I’ve been scouring the net and haven’t found any yet I can put on my table saw.
============================================================= Forrest makes the best blades I have ever used. Their thin kerf rip blades are so good that often times I don’t need a jointer to clean up the ripped edges. I’ve used German and Japanese blades, but these American blades have a unique sharpening sytem that holds an edge true. If I had one tip to give anyone, it would be to use Forrest saw blades. I also use one on my 10" sliding compound miter saw.
=============================================
Forrest Saw Blades: Woodworker I & II
Are you one of those people that has to have a Lie-Nielsen plane when a very nice Record plane would do almost as well? Do your layout tools have to have Rosewood handles, or can you bet by with plastic? If spending a little extra money to have the best is worth the effort – Forrest blades are for you. Don’t get me wrong, the benefit is more than perceived – these are excellent blades. But you have to ask yourself, at what price excellence?
A quality blade for the Popular Woodworking shop will cost between $40 and $60. So when Jim Forrest of Forrest Manufacturing Co. offered us a $120 blade to test I was ready to shoot it down before making a single cut because of the premium price. Four years and a lot of board feet of lumber later I understand the difference, and yes, I’d spend the extra money.
When you add up the benefits (a cleaner saw cut, money saved by going longer between sharpenings, improved safety by not having to force a piece of 8/4 maple through a rip cut), you’ll probably break even with the price difference, and still have the best blade money can buy.
Forrest’s blades offer a superior cut that leaves a rip-cut saw edge that is as smooth as if it had been sanded, and a cross-cut edge that is almost mark-free. The blades run very quietly, and backside tearout in plywood is negligible.
Each blade is virtually hand-made. The plate is hand-tensioned (up to 15 minutes per blade), superior C-4 carbide teeth are hand-brazed to the plate, and the blade is straightened and restraightened multiple times throughout the process.
Think of a Forrest blade as a tool in your shop, not an accessory. Forrest stands behind it’s blades by offering a sharpening service that bring blades back to the exact tolerances offered in a new blade. And this same exacting service is available for other manufacturer’s blades as well, so they should come back better than new.
Forrest offers a variety of blades for most types of woodworking machinery. The most popular blades include the Wood-Worker II combination blade offered as a 10" x 40 tooth for a little more than $100, or a 10" x 30 tooth for about $90 in either a 1/8" standard kerf, or 3/32" thin kerf.
The Woodworker I crosscut blade is available in a 60-tooth design for a 10" and 12" saws for $130 or $140.
RECOMMENDATION: The Forrest blades’ performance and benefit are hard to believe until you have the chance to use one. Effortless, super-smooth performance that makes using your table saw a pleasure. It really is worth spending the extra money.</< U>
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This page was last modified by dMouse Works: 05/16/2005 17:22:20
mahalo epac.
gonna check slim’s for the forrest line…
anyone know how redwood’s gonna work? It’s a classic choice…
it’s about the only reasonably priced large lumber we can get our hands on out here…
if I can rip some 1/4" thick sheets from some 1 by stuff I should be able build the skins…
otherwise I’m going with glueing up shorter 1/4" balsa strips for the skins and frame.
I sure wish I know how Northshore Woodies does theirs (I think w=its with a bunch of specialized jigs) and where they get their wood… They use alot of Brazilian laborers
check out the Eddie opening party pics from SurfNewsNetwork.com and check out that auction Brewer gun the guy won… Just a sample of what they do…
like one of my new logos says… “Wood is Good”
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mahalo epac.
gonna check slim’s for the forrest line…
=================================================
Forrest is strictly a mail order deal. They even send mailers to send their blade back to their factory for sharpening. That’s the main, key issue. They don’t need sharpening often, but their turn around is fast.
[=1]
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Anders- thank you for that post- made my morning! LOL! -Carl
Forrest WWII is an awesome blade. I get jointed edges every time. Worth the extra $$$$.
Christian
woodworker has them for 109(40) and 99(30) so that’s good news just gotta make sure my table is up to par…
then it’s time to make some skins…
hi paul
sorry didnt know i was in the middle of an argument
both ways seem reasonable to me
and id love to see one of your boards as well. i intend to have a real good look at your websight as well
if you knew what ive got on the backburner you proly would laugh in disbelief
roy
its only a kook box if its got a kook riding it
i got friends that could rip on a door
and stiffer boards can feel great as well
i want to get it to 8 pounds though
a 6 ft 4
is that possible Paul?
Hi guys,
New guy here.
Ummmm… here’s some stuff from boat building that I hope will generate some imagination. Imagination is more powerful than knowledge.
I know a bunch of you know a great deal about wood and boatbuilding/surfing/shaping/ and the like but I want to refresh here and throw some stuff out for folks who don’t know cause hey, you never know. Young minds, fresh ideas, right? I’m 41 by the way.
A piece of wood is weak along the grain. If you take a popsickle stick and grab the edges you can make two pieces fast. If you grab the ends and use the same force you have a little more difficulty. So… if you take a thin piece of veneer say a square 1’ X 1’ and then epoxy another piece of the same veneer say a square 1’ X 1’ and turn it so the grain is 45 degrees from the other you have more than tripled its strength. You have also made a piece of ply-wood. Now if you had mixed your epoxy with an adhesive filler then lookout momma. If you are not familiar with adhesive fillers for epoxy here is the goods from West System.
ADHESIVE FILLERS
403 Microfibers
403 Microfibers, a fine fiber blend, is used as a thickening additive with resin/hardener to create a multi-purpose adhesive, especially for bonding wood. Epoxy thickened with microfibers has good gap-filling qualities while retaining excellent wetting/penetrating capability. Color: off-white.
404 High-Density Filler
404 High-Density filler is a thickening additive developed for maximum physical properties in hardware bonding where high-cyclic loads are anticipated. It can also be used for filleting and gap filling where maximum strength is necessary. Color: off-white.
405 Filleting Blend
This strong, wood-toned filler is good for use in glue joints and fillets on naturally finished wood. It mixes easily with epoxy and lets you create fillets that are smooth and require little sanding. Its color is a consistent brown, so 405 can be used to modify the shade of other WEST SYSTEM fillers.
406 Colloidal Silica
406 Colloidal Silica is a thickening additive used to control the viscosity of the epoxy and prevent epoxy runoff in vertical and overhead joints. 406 is a very strong filler that creates a smooth mixture, ideal for general bonding and filleting. It is also our most versatile filler. Often used in combination with other fillers, it can be used to improve the improve strength, abrasion resistance, and consistency of fairing compounds, resulting in a tougher, smoother surface. Color: off-white.
This is generally how the bulkheads in boats are made. Pretty much the strength of the boat.
OK. Now if you had taken your first sheet of veneer and bent it (or layed the piece on your form) and then epoxied second sheet, then epoxy your 1/8th inch deck strips lengthwise on the deck you should get a bomb proof deck (all of the grains of the 3 separate pieces turned 45 degrees) possibly a deck who doesn’t need frames below. NOTE: when you epoxy the deck strips down leave a 16th of an inch gap between them, then fill the gaps with the adhesive filler. This will make little white lines down the board and increase the sheer strength. All of the epoxied pieces should keep the shape of the form when dried, especially with the adhesive filler added.
OK here is something else to think about.
I’m not sure why you guys are glassying these boards. It is my understanding that foam boards are glassed to increase strength. Rich,already stated that he has an unglassed board. I would ‘paint’ the boards with a coat of epoxy, put one layer of thin glass on the deck to help out with sand abrasion from your wax and feet, and then another final coat of epoxy on top of that for a total of three coats of epoxy. NOTE: West System makes an aluminum powder that you can mix with the epoxy to make it hydrophobic ‘Water Hating’. It also adds some UV protection. It is used a lot in the making of concrete boats. Yes, concrete.
NO I don’t work for West system. I’m just familiar with there stuff. 
I’m sure if one of you guys called them up and picked their brains they could add to what I have said.
Also, polyurethane loves wood more than epoxy. Epoxy loves polyurethane. Why not a super thinned out coat of polyurethane, to ‘soak’ in. Dry. Then another coat of poly. Dry. Then epoxy. Ask the West System dudes.
OK. Hope this helps more than hurts.
Love then Peace.
t
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roy
its only a kook box if its got a kook riding it
i got friends that could rip on a door
and stiffer boards can feel great as well
All true of course, I wasn’t aware of any argument either, we are all just displaying our personal preferences really. The K. box . . . It’s such a lovely catchy name though, hard to resist ! I remember that the first time I heard of Paul Jensen was when we both got postcard sized pictures of our boards on the same page of Pacific Longboarder mag, on the letters page or something like that, it was a fun buzz to get something published. Just thinking about the old Blake boards (and their Australian counterparts), notice that the planshapes of the boards are very like mine, with circular arc pintails and round noses, widepoint either at 50/50 or way forward. . . the Popular mechanics board for example with a very forward planshape, I saw in PLB that a lot of Aussie Hollows from back in the day had that shape, only they were around 16 feet. So Paul (and Richie, Robbo, Hicksy and all the other Swaylock’s Hollow board builders) are developing the Blake Hollow construction method, while choosing more ‘modern’ planshapes, while I’m on the Blake wavelength regarding those old planshapes and overall board size. Just rambling sorry, catch you next time Roy
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OK here is something else to think about.
I’m not sure why you guys are glassying these boards. It is my understanding that foam boards are glassed to increase strength. Rich,already stated that he has an unglassed board. I would ‘paint’ the boards with a coat of epoxy, put one layer of thin glass on the deck to help out with sand abrasion from your wax and feet, and then another final coat of epoxy on top of that for a total of three coats of epoxy.
I have been riding unglassed wooden boards exclusively for the past five years. Often I do a two/three coat deck with a poured (unsanded) finish. . . . I brush on one coat, when the resin is tacky, brush on another. . . because this raises the grain I then sand the deck as soon as it is sandable and apply one more brushed coat. . . job finished. Much the same on the bottom, only sanded and polished, maybe one more coat. We have also done quite a few boards with ‘textured’ decks, but found that they are a hassle to refinish because wax gets stuck in the surface and keeps recontaminating the board while sanding. . . a smooth deck can have all the wax removed prior to sanding. By the way, the construction method which I use is essentially a piece of plywood made with a curve in it. . . . and some well planned voids on the inside layers! We started out with a bent balsa 4 ply blank, solid,no voids, multi directional lamination, two layers at 45 degrees. . . all 4 layers the same thickness, still doing the same thing really, just developed it a bit. Roy
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It look like Roy is gluing a whole bunch of small pieces inbetween the cross members to join them because the outside beam doesn’t look like one continuous piece of wood like you would do with a center beam stringer… Could be my eyes though
I wonder if you could use the ammonia technique to bend a sheet of 1/2" whatever into a rocker profile thm cut your rail band outlines from the rockered wood… Ammonia or steam the 4’x8’ sheet of wood and clamp it or vacuum clamp it to a rocker table… Let it dry then cut out your wood perimeter rails to fasten your crossmembers to.
does anyone know if wood 1/2" thick can be reformed this way?
You could vacuum clamp multiple rail bands with the cross members to build up the thickness on the same rocker table then shape the rail before lamming on the top and bottom sheets…
Hi Oneula, yes, you are seeing a bunch of blocks and yes the rail is made of more than 1 layer (5 in this case), the picture is misleading though because two of those frame panels are supposed to run at 90 degrees to each other, I’m holding one flipped so they are running the same way.
Regarding bending, If the timber is running fore and aft we can easily bend 1 inch thick timber if the rocker is fairly even. . . . like a circular arc rocker for example as on our Dragonboards and 17 footers. . . we can get 7 inches of rocker over 13 feet easily, in fact we have done 6 inches over 9 feet quite easily.
If the grain is running across the board the panels will bend so much that they can be rolled into a complete circle, and one inch stock will do this easily.
If the grain is at 45 degrees to the centerline, then the panels will bend a lot while still giving some fore and aft stiffness.
Using the thickst panels with the grain running across or at 45 degrees is a way of making it easy to bend to tighter radius curves like on the nose of the thrusterbuster.
BTW your idea of laminating the rails up on the jig and then adding internal frames, deck and bottom s interesting, hadn’t thought of that.
Roy
here’s some links to photo’s of the type of work North Shore Woodies is putting out…
andf they’ve been doing it for years.
They only have two models
This Brewer Gun and a Robert August Model
They actually are in the custom door business and do this as a side job.
Absolutely beautiful stuff… Too bad I can’t afford it
just wish I knew how they got their wood… and put it togethor like this
Mango, Koa, Obeche etc etc
I wonder how much the guy bid for this at the Waimea fundraiser…
Sorry I couldn’t snip the photos byt they’re copyrighted…
hey mate watch out
west system epoxy is a dirty word around here
a really great reason to use glass on a board is
1 impact strength
2 keep weight down for its strength to weight ratio
3 epoxy resin has no strength unless u use a cloth.(may as well use oil to waterproof)
its simple really
A layer of 2 oz with a sanded filler coat has the same weight as 3 coats of epoxy sealant.but has imroved its strength a great deal
Quote:
hey mate watch out
west system epoxy is a dirty word around here
a really great reason to use glass on a board is
1 impact strength
2 keep weight down for its strength to weight ratio
3 epoxy resin has no strength unless u use a cloth.(may as well use oil to waterproof)
its simple really
A layer of 2 oz with a sanded filler coat has the same weight as 3 coats of epoxy sealant.but has imroved its strength a great deal
Uh oh, I have to agree and disagree again
Re. points 1 & 2, epoxy on timber without cloth can make a very tough structure in terms of impact resistance, I have a 3 year old 11 footer which weighs about 20 pounds, and it has a Pinus Radiata bottom which is resin coated and it’s as tough as can be in every respect. No doubt it could be just as strong and a little bit lighter using glass, (probably more important with shortboards) but let’s just say that both glassed and unglassed systems work very well . . . I’m not against glass BTW, just don’t like the itch.
Re. point 3 Not true, Resin does have strength without cloth, comparing an epoxy coat to an oil coat is way out of whack, epoxy is much harder, and it does tend to penetrate the timber, effectively making a cellulose/epoxy ‘cloth’ structure. There are many classic mahogany runabouts finished with resin only, as well as surfboards and canoes, it is a recognised system, ask the WEST guys.
Re. WEST system, have they done something immoral or something we should know about? Not sure why they are a dirty word I used their resin for years, it is user friendly, bonds to previous coats well, but isn’t too good in sunlight and doesn’t have good air bubble release. It does work though!
Hey guys,
Re Blades:
To clarify, what i really meant was a thin “kerfed” blade (or even more simply, the thinnest-kerfed blade that will work for the job). Keep in mind, I’m woking with soft, straight grained, cedar and only re-sawing to 2" (two passes) max. My blade need not be super beefy.
Re Woods:
I hear all woods mentioned have thier plusses and minuses. I choose Western Red and Northern White Cedars (not Atlantic White) because the are readily available from sustainable sources, pretty cheap, rot resistant, light weight, beautiful, a joy to work with, smell good, feel good, delicious and nutritious. I’m just so smitten with cedar (although as a resiny species - the sapy kind - one has to extra care to ensure long-term epoxy adhesion). I’ve never tried balsa, or bamboo, or birch so can’t speak to those. Other wood’s I’m sure have thier good qualities, which those who have built with them can attest.
On the question of adhesion, does anyone have any insight on improving cedar-epoxy bond? I’m thinking in particular of getting that first sealer coat better absorbed (thinning, F-type additives, etc). Have not had any problems yet, just curious.
Re Crossbraces:
I’ve visualized those multiple stringers too. In my humbled opinion, they would be good, especially if they were curved parallel to the rail and could help support more than one plank seams (if there are planks).
Quote:
Hi guys,
polyurethane loves wood more than epoxy. Epoxy loves polyurethane. Why not a super thinned out coat of polyurethane, to ‘soak’ in. Dry. Then another coat of poly. Dry. Then epoxy. Ask the West System dudes.
Love then Peace.
t
Hi Richie, have you tried thistip from Follysurfer ? Polyurethane is stinky but I can imagine that it would improve your adhesion.
Roy