Our Immediate Future

Industry Talk
1

I posted this on another thread but wanted to post it under it’s own heading.

We’re now on day three since the bomb was dropped. I hope we’ve all had a chance to grieve, mourn, whatever.This is certainly a bad time for everyone and the best way for us to survive will be working together.

So now it’s time to get on with where we go from here. The state of the industry in the US is that PU/PE is over. I’ve had a chance to talk with many of the urethane blank manufacturers worldwide and simply put they won’t fill Clarks shoes. Not even close at least for the foreseeable future. Aus. has effectively cut exporting of foam and the foam they will export will probably be in the form of finished boards. China’s capacity isn’t even enough for their production, Europe’s production is small and Clark was the major supplier there. Brazil and South Africa don’t have nearly the capacity to export. Domestic blank manufacture is 5% of what it was last Friday. Guy’s, were on our own. This leaves us with EPS/Epoxy. For those who loved urethane and Clark I’m truly sorry that this has come to pass. You may think that I’m rejoicing in the streets but frankly this is the most daunting thing that’s ever landed in my lap. It appears I now go from revolutionary to leader in one day. Everything I’ve ever done and learned in my life I will now need. This is the scariest scenario you could ever imagine. And yet I do love a challenge.

The state of US board building today is shambles and it will take all of our best efforts to build a new future from what is left. So here’s where I’ll start.

Foam

EPS foam is widely available through EPS expanders nation wide. These plants are HUGE and produce more foam in a week than Clark produced his entire career. There will NEVER be a shortage of foam. They may occasionally run out of a density for a week or so but in the end they can bury all of us in piles of foam blocks.

For those who love the ride of urethane, there are new densities available in just the last month (2.5 same as superlight and 3.0 same as green) which will mimic urethane better than anything that the EPS block makers have had in the past.

There are also some specialty foam makers who might now see the sense in building blanks. They can produce blanks about one per minute that have very good properties out of steel molds. Jim Richardson in HI already has some of this being produced.

For those who want to buy blanks which are ready to shape, Segway Composites and Hydrofoam in CA, Craig Chafin and S-Foam in TX , RR, Coda Core and Davo in FL, Natural Art Cape Hatteras in NC, Fly in NJ, Shuler Systems in OR all make blanks. There are perhaps also others and I’m sure there will be more in the coming months.

Resin

The availability of epoxy resin is something I’ve spent the last two days addressing. Two years ago I moved to Tucson AZ. I moved here for many reasons but one was to improve my capacity and to begin marketing to the west coast and HI. In the two years since the move I have established good business ties with some really great people and managed to get some product out there into the public. The plant I moved to in Tucson is a large polymer plant, PCI. They produce many polymers for numerous real world industries all over the world. Their best known product to consumers is the paper coatings for ink jet print paper. The glossy stuff. My situation here is that I lease space and time on their equipment for the production of RR materials. The capacity here is vastly larger than the entire surfboard industry could EVER need. Having said that there isn’t much resin in the pipeline right now. It will take a few weeks to ramp this up but I suspect that we should be looking pretty good by January. What I need to find out from you guys is what you think you’ll need. The capacity is there, so no need to panic buy or hoard. This will only tie up money your going to need. There is one issue we will have in supply and that is we will not be able to finance this. This challenge will take every dime we have to pull off so we will be forced to sell on COD terms only. We can take credit cards and this is true with our distributors as well.

Distribution

Our distributors will be very important in all this. These are a bunch of really great guys who have helped me over the years to get where we are today. I’m going to be depending on them and I’m sure they will come through. The distributors here in the US are:

Graphite Master - LA CA

Fiberglass Florida - Rockledge FL

Natural Art Hatteras - Hatteras NC

Shuler Systems - Seaside OR

Craig Chafin - Freeport TX

Jason Troy - Oahu

Topperboards - Kauai

Foam, Fins and Fiberglass - Ventura CA

Fiberglass Santa Cruz - Santa Cruz CA

I want you all to know that we are behind you guys all the way. The tech we have is proven over many years and the knowledge to pull this together is right here on Sways (thanks Mike) By the way, I think we should all sit down today and write this guy a check.

It too bad that this unfortunate turn of events happened during Christmas season but in some ways the timing is about as good as we could have hoped for. We all have a chance to relax, retool, retrofit, repair and prepare for the selling season next summer (Good thing this didn’t happen in May).

I hope you all see some bright spots in all of this, there are some. Custom surfboards will become just a bit harder to get so those that make the transition stand to make the best money they’ve made in many years. This softness of supply will make the US custom board what it should be, the most sought after piece of personal surfing equipment you can buy. For the first time since the 60’s surfboard builders will be paid what their worth. The future in terms of environment is now assured. We will no longer have to worry about the EPA doing to any one of us what they just did to Clark.

In closing I wish nothing but the best for everyone. I look at this as an opportunity for the entire industry to do better. Lets face it in many ways it wasn’t so hot the way it was. We have a chance to reinvent our businesses and our lives and hopefully make them better.

2

Gey Greg, i don’t care how good your product is… when you say things like you did in this post…“the state of the board building industry in the us is that polyurethane polyester surfboards is over”… just keeps screaming to me that you don’t know what you’re talking about… and it makes me not be able to trust things that you’ll say about your product… you seem so self serving about the whole thing…i really wish you’d re word your thoughts because you’re losing credibility … danny

3

Sorry i meant to type hey not gey…danny

4

Clark was far and away the primary suppier of blanks worldwide. Danny, where do you think your going to get foam? 70% of the world supply just disappeared. I’m attempting to help this industry pick up the pieces. Is the letter above you attempt to help?

5

Greg,

I would like to hear you address how you think you can assist in the learning curve for the people using your products or any EPS/Epoxy for that matter. Not only construction techniques but how we can expect the boards to perform differently and account for that in the shape.

I think education is going to be the key to success for you on this one, its a new product and on the end user side one that is unknown. If you have people copying their magic PU/PE boards and they don’t work the backlash may be killer. You and Bert and the other EPS/Epoxy guys know this stuff, my sense is that the average joe (shaper and surfer) is clueless.

6

I suppose you are right. I’ll just have to wait and see.

7

Greg,

I appreciate your help in identifying sources of alternate materials.

I’m just a garage shaper so while Clark shutting the doors affects me, it (thankfully) doesn’t kill my livelihood. I already have 1 epoxy board and my local shaper Tim Nolte has been building them for years

So by Natural Art in Cape Hatteras I assume you are referring Scott Busbey? If so that would be great as it would save me some shipping charges.

Thanks

Jim N

8
Quote:

Greg,

I would like to hear you address how you think you can assist in the learning curve for the people using your products or any EPS/Epoxy for that matter. Not only construction techniques but how we can expect the boards to perform differently and account for that in the shape.

I think education is going to be the key to success for you on this one, its a new product and on the end user side one that is unknown. If you have people copying their magic PU/PE boards and they don’t work the backlash may be killer. You and Bert and the other EPS/Epoxy guys know this stuff, my sense is that the average joe (shaper and surfer) is clueless.

Well said.

I for one am not a shaper. In fact, the number of boards I have personally shaped and glassed can be counted on two fingers.

But I am a surfer, one who knows a lot about boards, and I have always ridden PU boards and love them.

And, yes, I’ll try styrofoam cup surfboards, but if they don’t perform EXACTLY like what I’m used to riding, then I’ll pay whatever someone asks to get what I want.

Surfers aren’t broke anymore. I will gladly pay 900 bucks for a shortboard that works. Gladly.

But, hey, if the beer-cooler stuff works well, then I’ll be into that too. Whatever floats the boat.

But if you really want to help everyone, find them employment.

If you can do that, you’ll be Santa. :slight_smile:

I’d also like to add that I DO, in fact, have a magic board. It’s a Rusty Pirannah, 6,10. I normally buy strictly from a local guy in Encinitas and have been since 1983 (talked to him today). He still makes me boards, but is retired. Anyway, I bought the Rusty off the rack, on a whim, and found it to be the best shortboard I ever rode. It’s a 6,10, but feels like a 6,4, yet paddles like a 7,6. It’s the best board I ever had. I rode it into the ground over the course of two years and gave it away. I called Rusty, ordered a duplicate (it was on the computer), and said “Duplicate it to a T.”

That’s exactly what happened, and it rides no different than the last one. I’m stoked.

Now, if it can be recreated again (when this one breaks or deteriorates) using styrofoam, then I’m fine with that.

But, like I said, I’ll pay pretty much whatever anyone wants for a duplicate if it’s PU. The board is that good.

Clark was charging rediculously low prices for blanks, in my opinion. Until Monday, I was getting my custom boards from most shapers for about 400 bucks. When I pieced it out it was cheaper. I loved going to Mitch’s, buying a blank, stopping by Jim Phillip’s, Jeff Clark, Rod, Linden, and many others (dozens) and have them shape me a board. They’d crank it out in an hour or so, charge me fifty to a hundred bucks, and then I’d take it to a glasser who would charge me about 25 bucks a foot, sometimes a bit more, sometimes a bit less. The blanks were fifty bucks.

I’ll gladly pay 200 bucks for the blank. I don’t care. And I’ll get it shaped for a hundred, and glassed for two hundred. That’s five hundred bucks, and still American Made (except, perhaps for the blank). But charge me a grand. I’ll still pay it if that’s what it takes to keep stoked. I’ll just have to, uh, throw an extra layer of glass on it.

This is all the opinion of a consumer, not a shaper.

9

The sleeping juggernaut awakens,

Its’ ancient foe banished.

An unexpected gift from the Elder Gods.

The champions of its’ nameless enemy scream.

They run.

They grasp at impossible plans.

Can they banish the beast?

Without the aide of their dark and hideous master?

They know not.

They fear the power of the juggernaut.

That must not be named.

Lest their remnants of sanity collapse.

Lest their world collapse.

Their new master comes!

The pressure of his presence bringing tears of blood.

The beast!

No! Do not say it!

Expanded… Poly… Sttttyyy… Aarrggghhhhhhh!!!

OK! OK! It’s supposed to be tongue in cheek and maybe a hint of funny.

If it’s too offensive for those with sensitive souls (a bit dark and eldritch, I admit) I’ll edit it and scrub the guts out. Or the moderators can do it.

Peace!

-doug

10 
Howzit dnick, Good for you, I totally agree with you. Does Greg think that just because he has an optional product that board manufactureres can just turn a switch on and they can make epoxy boards. It will take time and money to train their workers to work with his product  so it's not by any ways a quick fix. If the Clark factory is up to the EPA and fire codes than Clark should put the factory on the market and see if somebody wants to buy it. I'm sure he could get a lot more money for the factory than just the land. Now is the time for a filthy rich surfer to step up and look into this and save the " dying industry " that Greg refers to. Most surfers here on Kauai don't want epoxy boards, some tried them and hated them and some don't even want to try them so as far as I'm concerned there's still plenty of life left for polys since if there is a demand we wil find a way to fill it. Aloha,Kokua
11

Kokua,

Grubby Clark destroyed all his molds. They’re history. They will never start up again.

12
Quote:

I think what everyone is trying to say, GREG, is that you should be QUIET about PU and simply let everyone know how you can help them to adjust to styrofoam.

Stop talking about Clark, because nobody wants to hear it… FROM YOU.

Now do you get it?

The way you’ve jumped on this leads some to wonder if you knew something ahead of time.

???

Fairmont, Wow. That is pretty horrible. Anything Else you want to blame him for…maybe gas prices? The thing is, he did know ahead of time…like 10 years ago. And he warned us all. But you make it sound like he blackmailed Clark into shutting the doors so he could work all day to try and save the industry and get yelled at by YOU!

The way Greg has jumped on this leads me to believe that he is an honest man, with more integrity than most, who truley cares about the industry. He is trying to re-build Rome here. Give the man a break.

13

Howzit Liki, The next big question is did he destroy the molds before Monday morning or after. You don’t just destroy them in a couple of mins or hours. The rumor or fact that the molds were destroyed started on Monday so there had to be some evidence that it was happening like a lot of concrete being broken up and disposed of which would make quite a bit of noise. I have a friend who has done business with Clark for over 40 years who is looking into the facts and as soon as I know any info I will post it here.Aloha,Kokua

14

Hey, y

This is pretty funny coming from the guy who likes his women to have hairy arm pits, likes powerful gas guzzler V8’s and likes his boards to be polyURETHANE and just doesn’t give a rats ass about what Greg thought until now and you want him to post YOUR way or the highway?

We are lucky Greg is talking to us at all… Do you think his business would suffer ONE penny if he went surfing for a month or two while this all blew over? You and others here are saying what? Don’t gloat? Don’t put down an industry that just pulled the plug on you? We’ll get the same old blanks from somewhere else, even though our names aren’t Merrick or Stewart or Sloppy Joe?

Get it?

The facts do am be that Ken and Greg and Hank are the nicest, caring and GIVING gentlemen that you would want to meet.

ALSO: Pretty pathetic that some are still hoping that the clone - “Minigrubby” will come forth and save your asses…

15
In Reply To

Does Greg think that just because he has an optional product that board manufactureres can just turn a switch on and they can make epoxy boards. Most surfers here on Kauai don’t want epoxy boards, some tried them and hated them and some don’t even want to try them…Aloha,Kokua

Well Greg should not think this. Because most currently on the pu/pe trail are not innovators like those that they followed. Get a close tolerance polyurethane Clark blank shave the skin off of it (or cnc it), refine it a bit and glass it the way it has been done by many many before them for the last 44yrs.

Now Bert Burger is an innovator and forward thinker. He really knows composites. Read his posts. There are few in the surfboard industry that do. How many attend the composties trade shows or get the compostie mags?

Pu/pe surfboards are composites, but have not evolved at all except for refinement in shape and fin placement. And I don’t think that the basic eps and epoxy board is really evolved either.

With a sandwich skin you can control the flex the way you want. Someone with an understanding of a sandwich skinned boards could make one to act and feel just like the old pu/pe. Variation of core thickness, with the laminate being the same controls the flex. So throughout the length of the board the core thickness can change. Put the flex where you want. Add weight if you need it to be heavy like a pu/pe.

Maybe this is just the kick in the butt the surfboard industry needs. But probably won’t advance quickly seeing that the typical board building articles in the mags have not changed at all in the last 35yrs I’ve been surfing. There is more to this stigma than pu/pe. It is entrenched in the media too.

Surfboards could be better than ever before. And that means they won’t be typical pu/pe, and won’t be just plain eps/epoxy either (sorry Greg). But eps and epoxy could be part of the remedy.

16

Fairmont,

I jumped on this quick because that’s the way this crisis will be solved for everyone. This isn’t an easy time for me either. You have NO idea.

Adjusting to polystyrene is rather simple. All the info is right here in the archieves. Some has been reposted in the last couple days to help out those who need it. There are quite a number of guys here who can help who have been reading posts and building epoxy boards for the past few years. These guys check in here regularly and have a history of helping others.

I’m sorry if I seem to be a bit cold to the plight here. I do feel for you guys. But damn it at some point your gonna have to get off your asses, stop feeling sorry for yourselves and get to work. We all have a lot to get done and little time to do it if we’re gonna make summer season. So lets get to it.

17

And by the way, you have an incredible number of people throughout this industry that are today busting their asses to get something put together for you guys. I’ve talked with people all over the world who want to help. Bottom line, you’ve got to want to help yourselves. You have to contribute to you.

18

Hey there Greg,

First of all I want to Thanks for the time and lesson that you gave at the Cerritos College. I would like to thank you and your partner for sharing your ideas and thoughts about different avenues that as surfboard builders, we could take. It is sad and upsetting that Clark Foam has shut their doors. But if you look deeper, Clark Foam has been working on borrowed time. Just look at where he is at, you have a factory that is working with toxic materials, with million dollar homes less than 2 miles away. I wish Clark could have just picked up and moved to a more suitable place than to just give up.

There are many options that we can all take. Each will have its own road. But if there is a person that is willing to share with others, like Greg has, we should at least listen to what he has to say.

I also agree to what the others have said, this can be a “silver lining in a black cloud” with custom boards being charged what they should be, no more cutting prices or under cutting others to sell a board because of the market will demand a custom board price which should make every shaper happy.

If Clark closed because of the EPA, and he was producing most of the blanks for the world here in Southern California, think of what the EPA is going to do to the glassing shops now. Will they be next on the list?? What will happen if it does, then everybody will run around like a chicken with their heads cut off, looking for an answer.

I am not being disrespectful to anybody, or to their views, this is just my view on the situation.

Respectfully to all Shapers

Surrfdaddy

One more thing I would like to point out, is that I agree that we all should say “Thank you” to Sways and more importantly to Mike for making this site what it is today.

19

I agree oceanrider. EPS epoxy just begins to open doors. Higher retail prices open even more. We could be blessed to see better product AND profits.

20

The amount of words (caustic, sarcastic, supportive, emotional) written on multiple surfing forums about this event shows me there is a still a vibrant base of people in this industry. I wonder what the groundswell of confusion would have been if this had happened 10 years ago. I started riding epoxy boards when Greg offered some University of Florida surfers a good price for his boards in the 80’s. I only really spent time talking to him in the last few years before he went to Arizona, and he was (and still is) interested in improving the quality of surfboard construction and design and making the technology available to others. Yes, he is very focused on eps and epoxy technologies, so obviously he will promote it and try to help those people who are willing to give it a shot. I have friends in the pu/pe industry who are probably still wondering what they will do when their current blanks are gone.

If you try eps/epoxy and don’t like them, oh well, you’ll find an alternate. If Greg has time, and even when he doesn’t, he will talk at length on how to work with the materials he is familiar with. He’s been talking about this technology for so long, only now it is a little more relevant and people are actually listening to him, regardless of how opinionated they are about it. Sure he could say nothing, but then again, so could you.