Howzit oceanrider, I agree that poly and epoxy have been around for a long time, but poly has been the industry standard. I personally started playing with poly resin at the age of 11 and had my first job repairing boards for a shop at 15. The problem now is a supply and demand thing that has been thrown at us in an instant.As for inovation Bert is doing things that are inovative but Greg has also done so much as far as making a safer to use epoxy and don’t forget his additive F. But if surfers want poly boards they should be able to get them just as if they want epoxy boards they should be able to get those. I believe that we should at least have the option to choose what we want to ride or build and not be forced to choose one or the other. At this time I am more concerned about why Clark closed and if the EPA didn’t do it why didn’t he put the business up for sale and if the molds were destroyed, why were they and were they destroyed before Monday. Like I said in another post I don’t think they could have been destroyed in a matter of hours after the closing since that’s a lot of concrete to dispose of let alone break up. Inovators have been trying to build a better board for years and there have been many ideas tried but it always came back to good old poly, why maybe that’s what the surfers wanted. I am a time in my life where I could just walk away from board building and not look back, but people want my glass work so I keep doing it. Clark should bare his soul and tell the truth about why the factory is closed and if he did destroy the molds that strikes me as his ego saying I won’t let anybody have the tecchnology. I bet that Greg or any other blank maker would have paid a good price for those molds. By destroying the molds if he did that is a pure example of setting back technology and if he is out of business make the secret formular public so others can use it and or try to improve on it. I think there will be some things that will come to the surface about this whole situation that may surprize us all. Aloha,Kokua
Quote:I think what everyone is trying to say, GREG, is that you should be QUIET about PU and simply let everyone know how you can help them to adjust to styrofoam.
Stop talking about Clark, because nobody wants to hear it… FROM YOU.
Now do you get it?
The way you’ve jumped on this leads some to wonder if you knew something ahead of time.
???
Fairmont, Wow. That is pretty horrible. Anything Else you want to blame him for…maybe gas prices? The thing is, he did know ahead of time…like 10 years ago. And he warned us all. But you make it sound like he blackmailed Clark into shutting the doors so he could work all day to try and save the industry and get yelled at by YOU!
The way Greg has jumped on this leads me to believe that he is an honest man, with more integrity than most, who truley cares about the industry. He is trying to re-build Rome here. Give the man a break.
I apologize for that. I didn’t mean that he was blackmailing anyone.
In fact, I don’t mean anything. I haven’t a clue as to what I’m talking about.
Just shock.
Sorry.
Quote:Quote:I think what everyone is trying to say, GREG, is that you should be QUIET about PU and simply let everyone know how you can help them to adjust to styrofoam.
Stop talking about Clark, because nobody wants to hear it… FROM YOU.
Now do you get it?
The way you’ve jumped on this leads some to wonder if you knew something ahead of time.
???
Fairmont, Wow. That is pretty horrible. Anything Else you want to blame him for…maybe gas prices? The thing is, he did know ahead of time…like 10 years ago. And he warned us all. But you make it sound like he blackmailed Clark into shutting the doors so he could work all day to try and save the industry and get yelled at by YOU!
The way Greg has jumped on this leads me to believe that he is an honest man, with more integrity than most, who truley cares about the industry. He is trying to re-build Rome here. Give the man a break.
I apologize for that. I didn’t mean that he was blackmailing anyone.
In fact, I don’t mean anything. I haven’t a clue as to what I’m talking about.
Just shock.
Sorry.
Fairmont, no apologies necessarry. It was a misunderstanding on my part. I read too much into it. Everyone is a little shocked and touchy now.
Scott
Although I have not posted on swaylocks for some time now. I wanted to thank Greg and the others on swaylocks. I have been using epoxy and eps for the last three years. It is very easy to work with and with a number of different hardners anything is possible. If it wasn't for you and your incouragement, I would have never went the epoxy eps route. Thanks! The surf industry as a group should have seen this coming a long time ago. I do feel sorry for the many people who will lose there jobs due to the way Clark shut the doors. The furture of surfboard manufacturing is your hands Swaylocks so get off your hands and get to work. It can be done.Take the Miki Dora challenge!
And I’m sorry if I seem to be a bit insensitive too. This is a shocking blow to everyone. If it’s true that all the factory equipment is being destroyed then all the years of everyones work is going too. This is SHOCKING!!! Unbelievable! Why?
I have been on the phone for three days straight trying to help in some way to give us a future (can’t wait to see this phone bill). I’ve looked into every possible solution and talked to almost every industry leader around the world. There are so many people, right now, working hard and working together that it’s absolutly inspirational to watch. This is going on in factories accross the country. People are retooling, refitting, reworking their entire lives. NO ONE wants this thing we have to die. This is an incredible industry full of great people. It’s a great life and lifestyle. We can’t let this thing go.
Everyone, I’m sorry but he’s gone. It’s time we get up tommorrow and decide to make the best of this we can. Time for us to work as one to resurect and make it better than it was. It’s all up to us.
Hi All,
I thouroughly agree with Kokua. I am not a manafcturer just a normal kooky surfer who has tried all the “New revolutionary” boards that have come out onto the market.
I have found that with the S’Core boards, Surftech and Epoxy boards that none had no drive compared to a PU board.
I also found that when you started feeling the wave start pulling you along when paddling into it, if you stoped paddling the board stopped as well as it did not have the weight momentum as a normal PU board would have, so with the lighter boards you would have to take a few more paddles to get onto the wave.
Now when doing a turn I found the lighter boards skatey and not as drivey, sure they felt faster as they wre lighter, but I found with that bit of extra weight you had more momentum and drive off your boards.
So after riding a 6’0’ and 6’3’ S Core and a 6’2’ byrne surftech channel bottom and a 6’3’ Al Merrick (Surftech) flyer, a JC 6’3’ (Surftech) Dorian I found all these went pretty good in waves up to about 3 feet in my local area (Mandurah WA).
Now when I got them in waves up North like Gnarloo and Jaques Point (Kalbarri yes thats the proper way it’s spelt not Jakes), on four to six foot waves they were useless. Hard to control and skating around heaps. I slapped in bigger fins on all boards, still no difference, so this guy lent me a 6’0 PU Clearwater board to try (which I was a bit sceptacle to use).
Now I know Steve and have never bought a board from him in my life, but after riding this board, I thought to myself, how could I have gotten caught up in all the hype of lightness equals performance.
When I got back home I ordered myself a board from Del Rosso. Yep, the PU boards have a lot going for them and I will be getting another one from Clearwater.
It even paddles better than the others and is 6 foot by 18 1/2 x 2 1/2 thick. I know what I like and people are starting slowly to find out what they like too, as most of my friends are going back to PU boards as well.
The only problem over here is we see heaps of these boards made from China etc, flooding our market and have been even offered to have some produced with my website logo on them at an amazing price to sell online, but I’am proud in where I was born and proud in my country and try to support products made here. Call it patriotic stupidity, but I will now buy here than some other place that is affecting jobs, lives and families in my own country.
The surf Industry wasn’t founded on a T-Shirt, or a block of wax, or a pair of boardshorts. They all came along after the surfboard.
The surfboard was first, then all the other paraphenalia came along. Then with it the greed. I have attached a copy of one of Bob Dylans songs below, some say he was a prophet, some say he just pulled too many cones, but read and see how true it is.
Cheers
Marz
P.s. be nice to each other, because now is a time when you all need to support each other in this industry, get over the egos, get together and work it out.
And the song below does not only reflect what’s happening in the USA, but Australia too
Well, my shoes, they come from Singapore,
My flashlight’s from Taiwan,
My tablecloth’s from Malaysia,
My belt buckle’s from the Amazon.
You know, this shirt I wear comes from the Philippines
And the car I drive is a Chevrolet,
It was put together down in Argentina
By a guy makin’ thirty cents a day.
Well, it’s sundown on the union
And what’s made in the U.S.A.
Sure was a good idea
'Til greed got in the way.
Well, this silk dress is from Hong Kong
And the pearls are from Japan.
Well, the dog collar’s from India
And the flower pot’s from Pakistan.
All the furniture, it says “Made in Brazil”
Where a woman, she slaved for sure
Bringin’ home thirty cents a day to a family of twelve,
You know, that’s a lot of money to her.
Well, it’s sundown on the union
And what’s made in the U.S.A.
Sure was a good idea
'Til greed got in the way.
Well, you know, lots of people complainin’ that there is no work.
I say, "Why you say that for
When nothin’ you got is U.S.-made?"
They don’t make nothin’ here no more,
You know, capitalism is above the law.
It say, “It don’t count 'less it sells.”
When it costs too much to build it at home
You just build it cheaper someplace else.
Well, it’s sundown on the union
And what’s made in the U.S.A.
Sure was a good idea
'Til greed got in the way.
Well, the job that you used to have,
They gave it to somebody down in El Salvador.
The unions are big business, friend,
And they’re goin’ out like a dinosaur.
They used to grow food in Kansas
Now they want to grow it on the moon and eat it raw.
I can see the day coming when even your home garden
Is gonna be against the law.
Well, it’s sundown on the union
And what’s made in the U.S.A.
Sure was a good idea
'Til greed got in the way.
Democracy don’t rule the world,
You’d better get that in your head.
This world is ruled by violence
But I guess that’s better left unsaid.
From Broadway to the Milky Way,
That’s a lot of territory indeed
And a man’s gonna do what he has to do
When he’s got a hungry mouth to feed.
Well, it’s sundown on the union
And what’s made in the U.S.A.
Sure was a good idea
'Til greed got in the way.
I imagine Mr. Clark is being pretty vague due to the charges against him. It doesn’t seem like the molds should be getting destroyed, because aren’t they evidence in the case against him?
I’m surprised he didn’t move the factory closer to the oregon land that he loved. The money he made from the property the factory sits on should’ve been more than enough to cover the move. I know that some people will argue that moving out of socal, one of the hubs of the industry, would’ve been a bad move, but not when you have a monopoly on the pu blank market.
Land up here is dirt cheap.
I love the feel of pu board under my feet as much as the next guy, but we will adapt and overcome. The EPA has no idea how strong of a driving force they are dealing with, they’re coming between surfers and tradition.
But, maybe that’s exactly what we needed.
Hey again Greg… where will i get foam?.. from the guy that i’ve done business here in hawaii with for the past 30 years… i was in his office tues. when he got a commitment from mr. x to get 800 blanks a week delivered here in Hawaii… that hole in the business world that Clark left is just tooo lucrative to go away… ( i don’t make many boards a week anyway, i’m too old, and i do everything myself, so i don’t need so many blanks)… and the same guy keeps asking me if i’ve thought about using styrene-ofoam and epoxy, so he’s on the same note you’re on too…you asked me if my note to you was my way of helping… yes it’s the only thing i felt i could do to help… i barely knew you in Florida from surfing, we ended up living in the big house at Sunset beach here in Hawaii for awhile, and i found you to be the nicest person, a good man, kind, courteous, funny, just a really nice young man… and you’re still married to the girl you made so much noise with( i’m so sorry but i just couldn’t help it after so many years:)… i haaven’t seen you for over 30 years, but i really think you’re still a great human being…i keep crossing you here on these posts because of the way your wording is making me and some of the other readers feel … i don’t want anyone to have a false opinion of you because i really really do think that you and your material are going to have more and more influence in this industry, and i want you to reap benefits that you’ve worked so hard to have happen, and i also really really believe that i’ll be able to build a few really beautiful polyester, polyurethane surfboards for some stubborn dinasaurs that will be left out here in Hawaii…i can’t wait to paddle out with you at small pipe when this thing works itself out and trade boards some!..hope to see you again… danny
now surely
now the molds are all destroyed, that someone in the company (someone who cares about the industry) kept detailed maesurements or masters for scanning ,or scanned all the available designs from clarke foam.it wouldnt have been difficult to do and to set up cnc machining or hotwireing of clarke shapes in EPS.
i smell a rat sorry
no one would just destroy all that history without a record.
that would be extremely selfish in my opinion
hi greg, i’m embarrassed to say i have usually ignored any thread having to do with epoxy. Obviously that has changed. Just a quick question if you have time. Ive found segway but where can i get info on hydro foam that you mentioned. Also sfoam only sells to established sb manufacturers, is that standard with the eps blank people. if so, in light of whats happened do you think that will change?
This is an interesting thread… the funny thing about epoxy/eps vs PU/polyster is, imho, a question of stiffness. Why, as Greg probably knows, did we switch to eps for sailboards in the 80’s? Because for sailboards we wanted stiffness and lighter weight. For surfboards however a certain amount “drive” “feel” is wanted and gained through the flexibility of the polyester resin and PU core. I think that it’s less about the PU core than it is about the resins however. Polyester is more flexible and gives a more “dynamic” flex to a board than epoxy. Now simply making a stiff light board didn’t always pan out the way sailboarders expected and these first epoxy boards ended up breaking so the industry took a turn to sandwich construction where a combination of properties where added by materials in layers. Aramide and carbon fibers gave a certain amount of torsional flex without being detrimental to longitudal stiffness etc… different densities of foams where combined to give impact resistance (sailboards jump…) whilst maintaining low weight etc…
Now that Clark is out of the picture (or at least so it seems) it is up to shapers to figure out how to combine materials to get the “drive” flex with the “new” materials.
And perhaps the chemical industry can come up with resins and cores that match polyester/PU properties.
All in all troubling times for shapers and surfers alike. It is especially bizarre that the state of California has just hurt one of it’s national sports! I guess the Governator don’t surf…
WOW, all of this is alot to take in, but after reading over all of these forums for a couple of hours it feels to me that something is difiantly fishy here.
1st: Exactly, why is Walker Foam still open if its in the same county and makes the same poly blanks as Clark did, if the EPA is so strict why haven't they targeted them yet?
2nd: I have not seen anyone on any of the forums on here, Surfermag, and Surfingmag mention anything about Clark Foams Headquarters in FL, Europe, and Austrilia. Does anyone know if any of these other headquters are still producing blanks? Or were these just his distributer centers? Did Clark only shut down his CA factory? I know if you type in Clark Foam on Google the only website for them that comes up is their European website, so whats the deal with this, are these Clark Foam Factories still open & running or did he shut all of them down?
3rd: The Rusty, CI, and Lost thing sounds interesting to me. Do you think that Clark & those guys are in this thing together to take over the market even more & to improve their profits even more? Could the 4 of them have made a huge deal with a Chinese or Asian company making their boards under their labels which they knew they would have no problem selling if Clark closed. So they got together with Clark and said if you close up & stop making blanks we will get this Asian company to make our boards for half the price so we can make double the profits that we have been making and by doing this it would shut down 80% of the surfboard companies around now and we will be the only ones still around making double our profits than we did before and Clark would be sitting there collecting 25% of the profits for his act in the whole situation. Do you think something like this might have happened?
It’s absolutely the designers resposibility to make the new boards work. EPS/epoxy boards don’t have the drive for two reasons. EPS foam has traditionally been only available up to 2.0 lb densites. This is 20% lighter than Clark Ultralight. That lower density makes the board lighter and more buoyant. I’ve never beleived that stiffness had that much to do with this.
So if you take my word for this, and I probably have the most experience in making these things, then the solution to getting more drive is in the redesign of the board. There are numerous places in which to get more drive in a shape. Thinner rail, a more forward thickness flow, deeper concave, changes in rocker, etc, etc, etc. I’ve always thought that making the board heavy was a rather bad place to get drive.
IMO I worked all this out years ago. Look at my boards I’ve built over the years and you’ll see subtle differences for my PU contemporaries. This is on purpose. Look at Bert’s shapes … many of the same subtlties.
The buoyancy is an issue that also can be solved easily. Thinner rails … simple. Look at Berts boards again. But now there’s another way. There is now 2.5 lb density EPS blanks available. These are going to ride VERY similar to a Clark superlight because it’s exactly the same density. Same buoyancy.
If it is flex, we make resins with four different flex charateristics so more flex can be built into the boards that way. There are new combinations that will need to be tried and new things to be mastered by the designers. I for one have never had a problem with the way our boards rode. Most customers I had came back again and again because they liked what we made best. Bert has a one year waiting list for his boards.
In the end people will adjust to the new eqipment and find ways to make them ride better than what has been the standard. With shaping machines this won’t take long at all.
Danny, if FH can pull that off they’ll be heros. In Hawaii. But that still doesn’t solve all of the problem now does it. And that’s what I’m trying to do. As self serving as I know this must look, I really do have many peoples best interests here. There are many here who make their living from surfboards. They have wives, kids, morgages, etc. They have depended on Clark for many years and now he’s gone. I keep hearing that there’s a container coming here and there and over there. Each is filled with 500 blanks and we’ll all be saved because there will be one coming every week. Clark did 1000 a day. That’s two containers a day seven days a week. That leaves the American surfboard industry 6500 blanks a week short. That’s one hell of a lot of food that won’t hit surfboard builders tables. Maybe you have a solution for you. That’s great. But Danny, try to see the big picture, it’s not just about you. It’s about those guys and their families who aren’t going to see any other solution to this but change. Try to understand what I’m seeing. FH is seeing the big picture too. They know this is something that is going to take lots of time to work out. Maybe years, maybe never. People who are talking about these containers are filling everyone with false hope. I’m here to offer REAL hope. Proven hope.
Something else to realize, epoxy boards are not just a stop gap measure either. They are as viable as any other tech. They’ve never had the overall industry design effort thrown at them that urethane has. The result is a bunch of urethane shapers using urethane designs making mediocre epoxy boards. But now they will. Now everyone will move forward and work out the shapes just as I did to my own satisfaction long ago.
Greg: i think what i’m reading here and you are saying, is that the times are a changin’. The surfboard industry is going through a very Darwinian event—the best will make it the ‘stick in the muds’ will not—it’s actually as simple as that. the folks in the islands seem to be the most grumpy of the bunch(and i used the term 'grumpy" for a reason)
THe man’s name is gordon (grumpy) clark, in reading his semi-monthy ‘rants’ over the years, it always seemed as if he viewed himself as the final guru of the foam surfboard industry.
Sorry, if you read the Fax carefully clark admits to a long string of enviromental insults . The EPA were bound to come down on him sooner or later, sooner is here Now.
As for breaking up the molds, if he sells the equipment he is still under the law responsible for it’s use , thats just the way our legal system works,(weird but thats the way it is )
Greg, good luck and keep you head down, the nuts are going to go out swinging at any target they can see, just like the dinosaurs did when the comet arrived.
sigh , sounds like the usual propaganda marz…
you know you havent ridden every new revolutionary board on the market …
i do however agree that the chinese and thai boards are killing our industry …
and i also agree that if i had a choice between a surftech, or a clearwater p/u …
i would pick the clearwater anyday …
but you have got to get your head around the fact that materials are not to blame for a board not working, its the shapers and the shapes they use …
ask your friend steve del rosso about a trip up north he did back in 95 ??
ask him if he remembers a 6 to 8 foot day at gnarloo , then ask if he remembers a guy on an epoxy board threading some deep ones ???
do you think that every year when we went up north , if it was over 3 feet we didnt go out because our boards didnt handle it ??? we did what we always did anywhere else , even if it was solid , sat deep, hassled for waves , bluff , jaques , mutating tombstones … the boards handled it …
crap marz , my best ever up north big wave board , was super light , had hold and bite , was super fast , and weighed in at 2.4 kg in a 7’-8" pintail gun …
and what about down south ??
can you tell me brent moss didnt win the margaret river classic one year when it was 10 foot on a super light epoxy ??
didnt justin redman win the national titles at yals in 6 to 8 on a super light epoxy ???
the next f–ken idiot who says " yea i rode an epoxy board once and it went like crap " is just going to fire me up more …
marz , youve been crapping on about my shapes more than anyone i know , yet you know shit about what actually makes an eps/epoxy/sandwich board actually work …
ive heard you sprout riduculous crap about all the things in my boards that that you think are no good , when in reality there what actually make them work in these materials.
marz , have you ever had a good board ?
have you ever had a bad board ??
both made from the same stuff werent they ???
one was designed bad the other good …
all the boards you rode in alternative materials were designed by crew who have no idea about how to get performance out of the materials the board was made from , take that eps wilkes for example , shit , the tail rocker in that thing was like a handbrake , no wonder you couldnt catch waves and had no momentum …
all those recent boards you rode are the lowest common form of a moulded eps / epoxy sandwich board …
does JC make custom epoxies ?, does byrne make custom epoxies ? what about merrick , does he do custom sandwich boards ??? are salomon custom ???
so how the hell can they possibly refine the tech to get a better understanding of how to get them to perform better ???
all those boards were ripped off p/u designs , none of those guys have a clue about how to get performance out of the construction you rode …
ive had that many p/u boards that went like crap , must be the materials , thats logical isnt it ???
ive also had epoxy boards that went like crap …
you should ring up midget farrely and ask what the board he won his world title on was made out of ???
what about dougy ?? ever seen anyone go faster on a wave than he did ???
the guy was the weight of a fly and his board was lighter , no momentum there ??
if those boards were flapping and skating out on you at jaques then its not the materials , its the shapers and there shapes that didnt cut it …and everyone knows (everyone should know) that when the surf gets bigger you put smaller fins in , so you would have made those poorly designed boards go even worse at jaques at speed …
look i can understand you wanting to stick up for p/u and the local industry , but bagging emerging tech isnt the way to do it , but rather you should be encouraging your friend to look at new tech , then crew wouldnt even look at an import if they could get something better , stronger lighter and better performance built locally …
marz i would so love to rattle off the names of whos riding eps /epoxy sandwich now and whos currently having a board built …
i was organising the next few weeks orders today and found another ex world champ on the new list , so now its seven ex world champs who are already riding or waiting for boards with this tech and a heap of names with the potential to be the next one …
anyone who says you cant make good boards for all condidtions with alternate materials is a fool …
as time goes on more and more shapers will learn how to get performance and the feel they want from eps / epoxy , etc and then will look back at the comments of the naysayers and it will highlight there stupidity …
i agree lightness doesnt equal performance …
the right flex equals performance …
now combine the right flex with lightness and something that wont self destruct and you have magic …
and that magic you wont get to feel marz , until someone else figures it out …
right now our friends in the U.S. are looking at bleak times …
coming in here and talking up p/u and talking down alternatives based on your limited experiences with a bunch of poorly designed boards isnt really helping anyone …
but getting back to the core of the thread …
a sad reality is setting in …
every major australian blank manufacturer is already at peak production …
even tho some burfords are on the way , they were on the way anyway …
we have a few smaller guys starting up , but all are months away from any real numbers …
it was estimated clark had over 90% of the domestic U.S. market …
with what aussie blank makers are currently doing filling backlogs , its going to be months before anything more than what was on the way already could possibly land …
so you have a situation where 1 out of 10 board builders will actually be able to source blanks , or all board builders be restricted to 10% of there current production (not likely )
no one even has to worry about the EPA shutting down the glass shops , because no resin fumes will be coming out for a while …
so an honest question to those involved …
can you go 2 or 3 months without any boards to build ??? when you do get foam it wont be in the numbers your used to…
and then even if foam was to be sourced from elsewhere it would be years before enough blank producers could ramp up production to fill the void left by clark …
everyone who builds eps/epoxy boards is completly insulated from this event and continues business as usual …
no doubt they will pick up some extra custom work …
all the little backyard and hobbyist types , while obviously annoyed , dont need surfboards to pay the bills and can except the thought of learning about alternatives and have the time to do so …
the hobbyists probably being the first customers for eps blanks and gregs resin …
just because surfboards cant be built , doesnt mean customers wont have a demand for them …
right now everyone is looking out for themselves …
what about retailers ???
here in oz , especially from where i used to live in west oz / mandurah …
retailers have already turned there back on local producers blanks or no blanks …
greedy retailers have no problems putting an entire industry out of business just to make a few dollars on surfboard margins …
these guys still have to pay the bills tho , if they cant sell a board , then there goes all the margins they would have made on the legrope, deckgrip, wax, boardshorts, towel, dvd, the girlfriends bikinis , board cover , sunnies , tshirt …
so its logical that anyone who walks into a retail outlet with a surfboard , will get the attention of the retailer …
if that person happens to be a chinese wholesaler or the guy from gsi , then chances are former board builders will find it very difficult to get that rack space back …
so even if you weathered the next 3 months with no blanks at all , then the trickle started , you would obviously do your direct to public customs first having the best margins , but i would really feel a large percentage would lose a portion if not all there rack space in retail outlets …
ok so now a look at the other alternative …
eps / epoxy …
i discussed this yesterday and it would take a huge amount of effort by a limited few ,to get crew up to speed …
right now im training crew , competant existing board builders , shoulder to shoulder , and its been months and im right there to answer every question , and sometimes i can turn away for a second and something disastrous can happen , because of the p/u mindset and the different rules that apply to each …
so i dont see guys who make the transition to eps/ epoxy doing so cleanly in a relativly short time and getting results good enough to actually be able to hand them over to customers …
guys like greg and myself would need to be ready to answer every little question , someone suggested a dvd answering the most frequently asked questions , manuals , training diagrams etc …
all of that would take time …
meanwhile , ive got boards to build , greg has stuff to do …
most of his customers will be flat out building the boards theyve always done and more …
so while it will be an option for some , those that have had limited experience before and those who could learn and adapt quickly , it will still be a serious amount of time , then factories used to doing p/u will have to remodel , more wall racks , and mixing areas redesigned , so costs involved before you even start …
then greg has stated that everything would need to be COD , so your looking at a full restock , because all your existing stuff is no good except glass …
so youll need extra capital up front plus be willing to wear time with low or no numbers during the early weeks of learning and continued low numbers for a few months ,and that still depends on whether the eps guys can actually keep up if there is a demand from the existing industry to change over …
even tho eps is readily available world wide , there is a difference between surfboard grade and insulation foam …
what about all the rejects ??
i have a new foam supplier now that im on the other side of the country and im pulling my hair out trying to educate them on how i want my foam cut , densities , quality , what part of the block , nesting issues , and i know what i want …
so you will be dependant on whatever infrastructure can be set up quickly by greg and others in the same field as they would naturally be the ones guiding the foam producers , then blanks still need to be processed to suit what ever construction technique direction you may go in , so rockers ,stringer arrangments etc , so again greg and s foam , coda , crew like that will be hot property to actually not only provide the goods but heaps of advice as well …
so these guys have to ask them selves , will i make better money giving all my tips and know how selling blanks to competitors or do i build surfboards ???
some like sfoam and greg , segway etc are already in the wholesale business , so would be prepared to do so , but what about a guy like coda , forstall is it worth the effort for the margins on the raw materials ???
i know greg has said its easy , and it is easy if youve been doing it 25 years , but if you have no previous experience with eps/ epoxy at all and your depending on paying your bills for the next month or 2 from a completly different type of construction …
then please think carefully …
the option of cutting and running …
waiting for urethane with no guarantees …
or changing to epoxy / eps …
all will be seriously painful …
if we decided to help in anyway and get behind the push to help crew into alternate materials , supplys etc , then thats the only place we could help and it still has to be balanced with the need to feed our own familys and not undermine our current business …
im not trying to dampen anyones enthusiasm …
but i see reality like how i decribed it , i cant make any of the painful decisions for any of you guys …
but i can give some insight into what to expect from some of the possible scenarios you may decide on …
ive often been accused of being a procrastinator , but i would rather think of it as , having a good think about what decision to make …
and right now many of you guys have some huge decisions to make , life changing ones …
so its not the time for impulsive irrational decisions …
greg im not trying to throw a spanner into the works , just playing devils advocate …
i know you have been on the go non stop for the last few days and running on adrenalin , but pretty soon a lot more realities are gonna set in …
i would hate crew to make a decision about a direction based on what you could deliver , but then find your self stretched to capacity and have board builders cursing because they could have cut and run and came out in front …
i will do what i can , and lets see what happens …
and to all the crew facing hard decisions …
have a good think about it …
regards
BERT
Time to innovate, time to educate !
Thanks to those who are making an effort to bring the narrow minded up to speed. To a large portion of the consumer surfers it is a part time , cool thing to do,sooner or later their boards will end up in a garage sale. For the group that sticks with it throughout their lives ,they will buy from the guys that have the talent and know how. Let the popouts have the beginners , when the smoke clears a handful of them will continue into a multi - board lifestyle. That should be the target of the Domestic craftsman. You can’t expect parents to plop down $600 per board per kid. This is why Wal-mart is the king of retail. You want a cheap ass car battery go to Wal, you want something that won’t leave you stranded get an interstate, or a die -hard.
The mag’s are going to spoonfeed the young, it’s up to the guys in the water to educate those that don’t know any better, instead of attitude , everyone involved should be an ambassador and excite the kids on innovation. Only then can we undo the programing of the full color quacksilver or smoke a bong ads that erode the kids into thinking that’s what surfing is about. In a activity that’s about freeedom and communing, there is way too many with tunnel vison, no insight and no real idea of what it’s all about. There has never been a better time to actually re-adopt some philosophy and integrity into a lifestyle that has been infected by the corporations.
I overheard some kids in the lineup one day and was surprised to find that they recognize others not by the person but by the shoes, trunks, and clothes they wear. This is what we are really up against.
Time to step up>>
Hey greg, i am still trying to say one thing to you… please be careful how you write your thoughts here, at this time especially, we all need to trust you right now because of your hard work and leadership with epoxy and styrofoam…don’t be negative, let us see your positiveness shine through… not the bitterness about how you’ve been treated for so long…i’ve wondered why the styrofoam thing has been such a hard sell for so long… then i remembered using styrofoam “surfboards” in the late 50’s at Desoto beach out on Cape Canaveral, you must have used some … do you remember that rash they used to give us?..maybe those days so long ago are still stuck in our heads… (just a little silliness)…May God be with you…
i really do want to help you get your message across here… i hope you can hear that…danny
Clark’s demise, for whatever reason, is a painful shock to everyone in the industry. This is the biggest thing to happen to board production since Clark started forty some-odd years ago. It could also be the best thing to happen.
I’ve been surfing all kinds of boards for over forty years, and one thing that’s puzzled me is how surfers have rejected anything that’s not PU.
Where’s the innovation and free thinking?
In many ways this is the best thing that can happen to us right now. Guys like Greg have been swimming up stream in a quest for something better. Now innovative designers and builders will finally be forced to look outside the box.
I’ve surfed good boards made from alernative materials and I’ve surfed crappy PU boards. If the board has the right dimentions, weight, flex, and strength, it will be a good board. It shouldn’t matter if it’s made from PU, EPS, or straw. I was making hollow boards out of carbon, kevlar, aluminum, and epoxy that surfed better than any PU board I’ve ever been on.
By the way… Greg probably makes the best epoxy out there for surfboards. He’s been focused on making it better for years. Buy some and learn how to make good boards using alternative core materials.
…Greg, I really understand your point, but you take into account that the rest of the world have at least the other 50% of the market…so, what, USA do the styro thing and the others do the PU?
…I think that the only TOTAL change will be if ALL the pro surfers all the bigger mags, the pro tour, all are in the styro boards…cause the moron or the average surfer or buyer do what the masses do…
Reverb