Reverb -
We don’t need “Total Change” we need innovation.
Clark has had surfers in a hypnotic trance for forty years. We’ve been using the same technology for FORTY YEARS.
To outsiders, surfers are free thinkers. How about we open our minds to what’s possible?
…well, epoxy resins always had been and is better than most polys…but polystyrene foam I dunno…
…I dont see any revolution in build a board from styro/epoxie in the way we build PU/poly…yes, in the way B B do…but this is a whole “new” world
Surfer Dave - polyester is more flexible? I don’t think you’d even find polyester guys agreeing with you on that. Serftech-type construction is very inflexible. But blaming the materials is inaccurate. Ever had a poly board that went ‘dead’ after a while? That’s because after a certain number of flex cycles, poly resin loses its internal structure - microscopic cracks throughout because its brittle - and can’t let the cloth & foam flex like they used to. Epoxy is chemically different as it catalyzes - it cross links and esentially becomes all one piece, reinforced by cloth. It might still ‘die’, but it’ll last 10 times longer before it does.
DMSurfboards - I suspect Walker either:
Invested in the necessary equipment to scrub their emissions;
Has a cleaner formula with less emissions to begin with;
Makes few enough blanks that their emissions are within permissible limits;
Or is next on the block.
Of course, if the EPA story is a smokescreen for another exit strategy, then Walker is probably safe, even if none of the above are true.
Epoxy is marginally harder to use than polyester, but it doesn’t attack and melt stuff the way poly does. That makes using different core materials possible. EPS is just one option.
Therre are different densities of EPS, and flex issues could be addressed with stringers or by combining materials. It’s wide open.
If surfers open their minds to try new things, and encourage experimentation, the world will be a better place.
I don’t think there is one magic solution. All I want are boards that surf good. Now maybe the community will accept alternatives and the industry won’t be regulated by one guy and a single technology.
. At this time I am more concerned about why Clark closed and if the EPA didn’t do it why didn’t he put the business up for sale and if the molds were destroyed, why were they and were they destroyed before Monday Clark should bare his soul and tell the truth about why the factory is closed and if he did destroy the molds that strikes me as his ego saying I won’t let anybody have the tecchnology. I bet that Greg or any other blank maker would have paid a good price for those molds. By destroying the molds if he did that is a pure example of setting back technology and if he is out of business make the secret formular public so others can use it and or try to improve on it. I think there will be some things that will come to the surface about this whole situation that may surprize us all.
Kokua,
My take from Clark’s letter and other experiences is that regulatory agencies did in fact consider his business “the standard”. As they (apparently) continually added more and more requirements every year he had to spend tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars yearly to upgrade. This money wasn’t spent just to maintain, it was also spent to meet new requirements. Eventually that is so burdensome I would imagine a person would reach a breaking point where it just isn’t worthwhile. Certainly a climate like that, where monsterously expensive requirements can and will appear every year with no way to plan for them, makes selling such a business nearly impossible. Certainly no lender would risk financing such a business.
His letter also stated that since he (Clark Foam) designed and made all the equipment and propriatary processes, he could be seen to be legally liable for any problems new owners create including failure to meet new standards. This is no doubt legal advice, but it certainly isn’t without precedent. Patagonia dumped their climbing hardware manufacturing a decade or more ago due to lawsuits. Such situations can be as simple as a lawyer making a case that equipment didn’t have sufficient warnings placed on them. Say Clark sold to a new company and the new company got cited or fined for some problem; they could sue Clark in return. It doesn’t matter if the grounds are loony- the cost of defending against such suits can easily wipe a person out.
While the regulatory agencies may not have locked the doors of Clark Foam, their practices could be seen as giving him no choice. As for Clark explaining himself, his letter was probably more detailed than it should be. The general news media is tearing him apart based on it.
Too many people down here in southern California. To make more space the crowds like to run off Individuals.
The surfboard creation process has never been regulated by one guy and a single technology. Numerous viable options for board building have have been available for many years.
One guy and a single technology hasn’t been the problem.
The problem lies in the general mentality of surfers who think they’re oh so radical and on the cutting edge. In truth they’re nothing more than ultra conservative consumers.
It’s time to wake up-
That’s what I meant Norm.
I’m fully aware of the various materials and technologies out there. Convincing surfers that they have options has been difficult because they were all eating off the same plate.
With Clark’s closing, surfers have to open their eyes to alternatives - some pre-existing, and some yet to be discovered.
Until now it’s been difficult for innovators to make a dent in the marketplace. The attitude of “if it’s not PU it’s crap” will change to “what’s better”. I think it’s a good thing.
PU boards will still be around. Now the game is open to innovation and acceptance. I think it’s a good thing.
Did I say I think it’s a good thing?
I’m kinda bummed I won’t be getting the last boards I ordered any time soon though.
Therre are different densities of EPS, and flex issues could be addressed with stringers or by combining materials. It’s wide open.
Gotta unplug the box and try to make some money…was doing a last fast pass and checking email…read “It’s wide open” and out of nowhere flashed on the possibility of Home Depot building supply clerks getting a run on their insulation foams by frazzled surfers…wondering just what the hell is going on…internet rumor or some new meth mix?
Ideas…
Now would be a great time to actually coordinate and form a guild or association. Addressing all these issues in a healthy organization. (Much like Swaylocks). I read this forum always; rarley post unless it’s something as significant as this. Unified there is more strength in buying power, education, hell maybe even health insurance. If all members adopted a standard and a seal of approval by the group. It would offer a legitamacy to the consumers. Co-op advertising, referral programs and maybe even a newsletter/ magazine. Being in product development I belong to 4 or 5 associations in other fields, why not surfing and board building. I guess it would be more of a GUILD. I do believ in Aus. they have done this. Strength in numbers, education, innovation seems like the right time to make a change. From the exchange that goes on here it’s pretty much the next step. Ideas? Input?
Howzit Benny1, A few years back I got the information on Mark Tolan’s DHP resin and they did flex tests with DHP and Epoxy and the DHP on polyurethane blanks won hands down. Epoxy on EPS foam won the breakablity catagory which is a plus but as far as the flex goes epoxy and EPS is not the leader.
I learned something about Walker Blanks yesterday, they are polyethylene blanks not polyurethane, this may be one reason the EPA leaves him alone, but after having his factories mysteriously burn down more than once He may have upgraded his technology when rebuilding. Aloha,Kokua
The EPA is simply another goverment organization that should not have the power they do to shut down commerce and cause a large amount of Americans to lose their jobs. Less goverment is the answer to this. Keep this in mind when you go to the voting booths. Big goverment and buracracy is how you get organizations like the EPA which give the pretext that they, like the IRS are needed and in existence for the good of us all.
The other side of the coin is this: If Clark had been fighting this for awhile and continued on knowing this could be a possibility he made his own bed and has played his own role in the loss to the industry and the jobs that depended on him. Thats reality. Nothing like this just happens…
From what I can tell, guys like Greg, Forstall, and Bert have been seeking alternatives for this very reason. An entire industry depends on one or a very small group of comapanies. Poor planning and vision can cause these things and Greg is right on the money when he says, “It’s time to move on in reality.”
Even if Clark opened his doors tomorrow, the bomb has hit and the industry will never again be the same.
Someone said Surftech owns the market: Thats in the hands of the surfers and shapers. Were I a shaper, I would not be selling out to that organization anytime soon. I would find a way to produce my own shapes out of the state of the art materials and keep my own ownership and control of my own business.
There are shapers like Greg and the others I mentioned that can help others get off to a good start and if a good alternative to Clark shows up thats not epoxy, then things will take their own course.
I hate seeing this, I hate the jobs that are lost, and I hate above all else that our country is at the mercy of bloody buracracies, but reality is reality and inovators will find a way. It’s what capitalism is all about The weak don’t survive and the inovators or those than can adjust will thrive.
This is more than likely an opportunity in disguise, not a tragedy.
Sorry if I have overstepped my bounds.
opening eyes to new…? ha ah ah
ha ha
ha
the same old shapes marginally re tooled in another
not NOT disimilar
MATERIAL!!!
foam and Fiberglass?
styrofoam is more than 40 years old
dig your stuff bagdaddio
lame as lame does
the revolution is upon us and
you speak in glowing terms of how different the stuff is?
It aint. the authorities will
YES WILL BE REGULATING
STYRENE FOAM NEXT
AND EPOXIE TOO
the writing on the wall isn’t in big print
but to clean up the polution
a noble Ideal
will include all industry
measure the count of the polutants coming down the colorado river that flows through arizona and texas and the Yangtzee,soon to be the greatest poluted river of all time poluted by the geatest growth industrializing country
in the history of the earth.
AND HE JAPANESE CURRENT IS TAKING IT TO CALIFORNIA
and the products are coming in containers to grace the landfills of the north american continent from tierra del fuego to hudson bay
good luck
…ambrose…
epoxy,…?
styro?
new?..
not green
oh yeah I wanna join a club
I like this place because…
it aiint a club
And I’m sorry if I seem to be a bit insensitive too. This is a shocking blow to everyone. If it’s true that all the factory equipment is being destroyed then all the years of everyones work is going too. This is SHOCKING!!! Unbelievable! Why?
…
As a speculation/guess (and I’m certainly not an attorney)…
It appears in the write-ups that I have read that his equipment–and presumably methods, formulations, etc.–were developed by him. Moreover since there are no established standards for that equipment, methods, and formulations by which his equipment, methods and formulations can be compared, by default they become the standard. Perhaps he may be liable for any adverse consequences relating to any usage of that equipment, methods, and formulations. In order to avoid that continuing liability after he stops manufacturing polyurethane blanks, one solution may be to just destroy the equipment and keep their design and operation, and the manufacturing methods and formulations, a trade secret. I have known people who have built beautiful and well-handling homebuilt aircraft who ultimately destroyed them specifically to avoid the liability associated with selling them to someone.
MTB
<EDIT: A thread I read after reading and responding to this one, “Clark Foam Investors…”, had already discussed the liability factor. Sorry for the repetition.>
Ambrose,
Wha tha???
I told you that laptop would be the ball and chain around your ankle.
This is a bandaid fix. Oceanrider, Greg and Ken know this.
This Saturday I will be at Ken’s place cutting blanks. One other friend, Mike from Cerritos College will be there Saturday and Sunday. My son, hopefully will become employed there to help tomorrow. I will be at Cerritos College on Sunday helping Terry clear out some old aerospace crap so we can be ready for retraining of composites and repair and etc for all the soon to be walking zombies.
I don’t need any of this, my plate is already full. And I’m just a backyard/background guy.
As far as new foams, why not something with paper pulp?
OR that Dap FastnFinal weighs NOTHING at all, I wonder how it would work in a mold?
OR Hollow Balsa
OR…
Big f’n HMMMMMMMMMMM.
Waiting patiently somewhere in all our futures, join me?
Or I’ll see you in hell, either works for me…
David
Bert,
I was only stating an opinion, but yet again you come blasting in with your alter ego. It was aimed at the whole Asian thing which in WA at the moment is 70% of all board sales, while on the East Coast it’s around 40%. I didn’t even bag your boards. I do not have time to get in a slinging match with you. You have my phone number call me (actually don’t as it costs me a lot of money in headache tablets after talking to you).
If your boards are sooooo good then how come they are not under the feet of every contest surfer in our state.
Like I said the epoxys are fun in small waves, you quote having ridden yours at 10 foot Gnarloo, maybe it’s what you call 10 foot as you always talk it up any way.
And if these epoxy boards are so good how comes none of the top pros are riding them.
Justin Redman rips full stop. You could give him a lump of wood with a nail in it for a fin and he would still decimate a wave with it.
You failed to say that Brent Moss is the only guy currently getting a result on your shortboard epoxys. Yes he has won a couple of state rounds, but in small surf not large as he bounces around like a cork in a river rapid when it’s big and when there is only 6 to 8 guys in his division, I wouldn’t be gloating about the result as there are guys that surf 900 times better than him, me or you who do not go in the events. You also failed to state he is over 40, as these type of light weight boards suit the older crew, I have yet to see someone on one of these so called new eveolution of surf design go balistic on one in big waves.
Weight is a factor, why else do you think that the guys who do tow ins on large waves have their boards weighted down? To give them stablity and momentum in large waves even at 15 feet.
It’s to stop them from bouncing around. Can you imagine doing tow ins on a light weight board?
If you think they are the Ducks nuts, put your money where your mouth is, I will gladly drive you somewhere where it’s what I (and many others) call a real 10 foot. I’ll wind off some pics of you and then you have the proof.
Or better still why don’t you give a short board to a Hawaiin charger (or wait till Tomayo Perry is back over in May) or one of the boys from South West OZ (not mandurah where we live where it is always small and crap) but a charger from Margaret river like Courtenay Grey or Damon Eastaugh and let them test them in big waves.
It’s all hype just like a promo DVD with the board getting run over by a truck and then being hit with a lump of wood, that I saw, then miraculously there is nothing wrong with it. Go buy one and run it over with your car and tell me if it comes out like it does on the DVD.
Wait and see what happens in the industrial revolution in China at the moment. They are poisoning there own country with there polution and fallout from their industry, lets see what happens in another ten years as water the gift of life becomes so poluted it can’t be drunk.
What happens when you end up stuffing up your own country? As history tells us, it’s quite simple. You just go and invade another country. So start learning to speak Chinease mate, not double Dutch as you might need it in another ten years for a job interview.
In my opinion, what happened is exactly what Hurley said and it is the 911 of the surf industry, that, like the real 911 will have an effect on things for years to come.
Man has always been driven by greed. You can not tell me if a board manafacturer came up to you from China and said, “Bert we would like to pay you $70 royalty fee per board for producing your boards and we will produce one hundred thousand a year, you get 7 million for doing nothing” that you wouldn’t take it.
Why else do you think all these other shapers have put there names to it. They just sit back and wait till the 15th of every month to recieve there cheque.
All in all you and I are missing the Point here mate! And that is you are trying to push your epoxy designs while an industry is going through the worst period of it’s life with people losing jobs, losing money and not going to have a very happy Christmas at all. I rekon it stinks and in a couple of weeks when all the dust settles you will find why Clark really closed it’s doors.
To all of those of you who have been affected by what has happened, I sincerly am sorry and hope that things will improve.
Try to have a Happy Christmas and a safe one.
cheers
Marz
p.s. Bert if you right me off again, I will personally come around and see you and use your head as a speed ball. There is a time and a place for this egotistical behaviour and it’s not on this forum!