Yes BB, as usual very insightful. So the term “reverse vee” as you know it would apply to a bottom contour with the vee placed forward?
I noticed when reading the auction description that they allude to an angled concavity.
Would you day there is a specific term that should be used for that design feature? Perhaps “inverse vee” instead of “reverse vee?”
If and when it is decided, someone should place it in the glossary.
Bill, Great story and typical in regards to guys taking others designs and claiming them!
Maurice Coles reverse v was his atempt to fix some bent preshapes sent from austalia. They were warped in shipping with too much tail rocker. He attempted to reduce the tail rocker and save these blanks by taking a vee cut from in front of the fins to the nose , lowering the rail line rocker , leaving the center rocker untouched. He had Curran ride one, he liked it and a new design was born. Hynsons first down rail boards had slight roll norrowing to rounded vee then a slight kick in the tail where bottom became flat. This to me was the beginning of this design. Brewer adopted this design about 3 years later and called it spiral vee,roll tappering to vee to flat off the tail.
If i could add my two dinaros…in the late 60’s in florida, tricky Dick Catri made a board that he called a spiral v, i think it was a v bottom that had flaired at the edges to make a concave, i think that was what he was doing (sorry mr. catri if my memory is failing)…when i got to Hawaii i worked for Wilson Foam and fiberglass, he and Brian Hinde had set up a glassing shop on Kona street behind Surfline Hawaii…it was either 71 or 72… we glassed a lot of lightning bolt shaper’s boards…i still remember some of the first boards that i had to sand, Brewer needed some boards glassed because he was doing so many , he brought 3 for us to try and glass, and i sanded through all three of them in exactly the same place, right in front of the fin…it was real embarrasing, i think those boards had the v coming back from the middle of the board then flattening out behind the fin…mr. lopez used the shaping rooms there once in awhile, i was sanding , so the shapers had to tell me what they wanted from the finish sanding… the way the picture of Bill’s board looked is what i had to sand a lot for lots of the bolt shapers, there was a lot of sharing, stealing, copying, whatever you want to call it now, going on… that was one of the things that made the lightning bolt phenomenon i think,Jack Shipley was so encouraging to all of us to go out and make the best, funnest boards that we could and bring them in…just unrestricted energy that was focused into one little building on Kapiolani Blvd…(it was just bulldozed about 3 weeks ago) i don’t think anybody was making much money making boards… like JC said, (no not him another one), history is flexible…who came up with what, when, who stole the idea and renamed it…pride, ego, … whatever it is that drives us…in 2001 the lightning bolt store on maui said i could make some more boards for them, and they would sell them to stores on oahu for the nastalgia thing…i called some of the bolt guys that i knew to see if they wanted to do some boards…i got lopez oregon number and called him… a couple days later he called me back to see what was going on and i mentioned that i’d just finished a beautiful 7’6" pure pintail single fin for myself to use at pipe from a template that i’d probably stolen from him…here’s the gift that he gave to me that describes the life that we got to live back then, he says," well Danny I probably had stolen it from you the week before"…it was a different world.
Bill,
It’s always fun to read your replies and posts. I think you were talking about my friend Brian who drowned at Puaena Pt. in the early 90’s. It was the day Derek Ho won the Pipe Masters and World Championship. I remember surfing Puaena that morning when the swell was building and there were some bombs coming in outside the point. Brian drowned later that day when the swell had filled in. He was such a fun guy to be around. We met when he was a helper at the company I work for. Once we both found out each other surfed that was it. He also mentioned that he had shaped a few boards too, and much of the day was spent talking about boards, shapers and waves. We got quite close in a short time. He got a permanent position in the company and was doing quite well when his life was cut short. Thanks for mentioning him as sometimes we forget about those who have passed on.
The term spiral vee was used by mctavish during the v bottom era but became more of a buzz word when it was used in describing what brewer was doing years later. Mctavish style ended in vee, brewers ended in flat as in reverse vee which this thread is about. Hynson was the first shaper to commit to this design on his downrail boards of 1969.
So mr Carti’s spiral v that really looked more like the double concave, no flatness behind the fin , in the late 60’s was more … ?, than real design, thinking experimenting,?, there was no inovation going on? just copying the real inovators that “owned” those specific engeenered curves on the bottom of surfboards at that time…i think that was the whole point of my post, maybe it’s just island mentality, there wasn’t the “mine mine mine” mentality that was happening here in the early 70’s i didn’t think,it was “hey i just caught a giant ahi , everybody come get some” mentality it felt like to me…so many shaping rooms were shared, " sure you can use my templates, because they aren’t really mine",i really liked that feeling more than trying to figure out who “owns” a particular thought, wasn’t that the seagulls in one of the cartoon movies recently?.. mine mine mine, or was it the crabs?..
Aloha Greg and Danny
What would you guys call this kind of Vee that was popular on early short boards in the late 60s?
I always thought that the spiral vee was a vee that got deeper as it exited out the tail which, especially on pintails, required the rail rocker curve, to hook back up to the stringer rocker at the tails tip, creating sort of a spiraling rail line as it did so, like above. Hence, the name Spiral Vee. Danny, is this the kind of vee that Catri was doing that you mentioned?
I can’t attest to who came up with the name or when. This is odd to me (and I may be dead wrong) because popular opinion now seems to equate the spiral vee with flatter tails rather than tails that look like my drawing above that seem to have a spiral to the rail rocker curve. Greg, do you have any idea what the word “spiral” would have technically to do with what might be more commonly called now “reverse vees”. Seems a spiral vee is more descriptive of the above drawing then a reverse vee is.
Flatter veed tails seemed to replace that kind of bottom, and as such, spiral vees and the language to describe them sort of evaporated back into that void were all such things reside till they burst forth again and are recycled in another era.
As to the ownership of designs. As I said before, I make no claims of ownership or origination and have no clue as to where it all really began. Many have walked these paths long before me and there are few stones, if any, that are left unturned. Still it is nice if history gets it as close as possible, to accurate, when possible. Sorting out the histories, shouldn’t be about ego, though realisticaly, there will always be that component in everything. It would be naive to expect otherwise. Should we not explore history then, for fear of it being self serving? History is just what it is, stored data, a record of events and how they came to be. Initially it is mostly in peoples minds and eventually in print. And YES, of course, there will always be slightly varying views of it. But we should never be afraid to share the histories we know and add them to that immense pool that makes up the historic whole. In fact, it may actually be more egotistical, to fear of what others may think of our comments. And that could prevent us from speaking up. This may truely be the greater crime.
I meant no harm to Maurice, and I bow down to his marketing skills for accomplishing what he did. But the reverse vee was neither his individual idea, nor did it become a standard because of him. It was commonly around long before his popularity. According to your story Greg, I guess the fact that the bottoms of Maurice’s production boards were near identical to mine, at the same time, was just an odd coincidence. Still, the more eccentric design that you describe as being created by accident seemed to have little resemblance to what made its way into production.
Danny that was a great Lopez story. I once asked Gerry about using a template that was considered “his”. He quickly and graciously responded, that he didn’t mind at all and added… “how else would everyone have learned”! Mike Doyle has a great, funny story, that is repeated in his book Morning Glass regarding the subject of copying templates. Having accurate histories of where and how things came to be, still allows one to be helpful.
https://swaylocks7stage.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/1015314_Spiral%20Vee%20?.jpg
Yes BB, as usual very insightful. So the term “reverse vee” as you know it would apply to a bottom contour with the vee placed forward?
Aloha John
Considering how the old vees often increased and went right out through to the tail of the board, then it would seem logical that a reverse vee would do the opposite. As you may have gathered, I think that the term reverse vee is a misnomer and simply a marketing term applied to a common existing bottom design of the time. The name was exceptionally well promoted and marketed into stardom but like all fads, it has simply passed on into the void that it was concocted came from.
I noticed when reading the auction description that they allude to an angled concavity.
Would you day there is a specific term that should be used for that design feature? Perhaps “inverse vee” instead of “reverse vee?”
I have no clue what they are talking about! Does anyone? These are those kinds of descriptions that come out of the minds of marketers to hook the imaginations of consumers. Like calling “purple” … “Mauve” because is sounds so much more elite and sophisticated and the slight hint of mystery, caused by the unfamiliarity with the term “Mauve”, makes one think that something special is going on that they don’t want to miss out on!
It is, once again, just Maurice’s slick choice of words that is creating the sense that there is something special there, when there isn’t! Soon everyone will be trying to make “angled concaves” because no one will want to be riding a board with those regularold boring concaves! We gotta get on the cutting edge of “angulated concaves”!!! Hurry, hurry, don’t miss out!! Be the first on your block!! Soon, this imaginary “angulated concave” bottom will be touted as the standard around which all contemporary boards are based… and on and on it goes.
If and when it is decided, someone should place it in the glossary.
Bill, Great story and typical in regards to guys taking others designs and claiming them!
[=Blue]Aloha cuttie
I didn’t mean to say that Maurice stole my design. It wasn’t my design in the first place. Just something I commonly used as did others.
Sadly a good marketing plan that is made for the purpose of making the common … special … doesn’t allow for an accurate telling of the history as the whole point of the marketing plan is to create the illusion that something new and special is now available where it wasn’t before.
Bill,
It’s always fun to read your replies and posts. I think you were talking about my friend Brian who drowned at Puaena Pt. in the early 90’s. It was the day Derek Ho won the Pipe Masters and World Championship. I remember surfing Puaena that morning when the swell was building and there were some bombs coming in outside the point. Brian drowned later that day when the swell had filled in. He was such a fun guy to be around. We met when he was a helper at the company I work for. Once we both found out each other surfed that was it. He also mentioned that he had shaped a few boards too, and much of the day was spent talking about boards, shapers and waves. We got quite close in a short time. He got a permanent position in the company and was doing quite well when his life was cut short. Thanks for mentioning him as sometimes we forget about those who have passed on.
[=Blue]Aloha Foamdust
That sounds like the same person. He was a wonderful guy. I miss him.
Interesting thread.
One thing not being discussed is the shaping of vees…I’ve done a few and I find vees to be the most challenging design feature to shape. Particularly keeping the rail rocker true…not trivial (concaves are much easier imo). I think the trick is to order blanks with lower or special rockers…like the “A” series.
Marketing!!! I sense a general theme in Bill’s posts.
Isnt it just something these days!
Tweak the same active ingredient in laundtry soap by 0.5% and put a big bold flashy “NEW AND IMPROVED” artwork on the box, make sure its placed at eye level, and viola! A nice spike in sales.
Then let things simmer down for a couple of months, wait and repeat.
One person, or few motivated people, takes just one nickle from every consumer and soon enough theyre rollin in it.
MARKETING…never fails to amaze me.
Would you day there is a specific term that should be used for that design feature? Perhaps “inverse vee” instead of “reverse vee?”
I have no clue what they are talking about! Does anyone? These are those kinds of descriptions that come out of the minds of marketers to hook the imaginations of consumers. Like calling “purple” … “Mauve” because is sounds so much more elite and sophisticated and the slight hint of mystery, caused by the unfamiliarity with the term “Mauve”, makes one think that something special is going on that they don’t want to miss out on!
It is, once again, just Maurice’s slick choice of words that is creating the sense that there is something special there, when there isn’t! Soon everyone will be trying to make “angled concaves” because no one will want to be riding a board with those regularold boring concaves! We gotta get on the cutting edge of “angulated concaves”!!! Hurry, hurry, don’t miss out!! Be the first on your block!! Soon, this imaginary “angulated concave” bottom will be touted as the standard around which all contemporary boards are based… and on and on it goes.
Inverted Vee…
the way it was explained to me by fire captain George K. who maybe a rookie compared to you guys, is that it’s basically just that, a concave that is made up of basically inverted “vee” panels.
George said he doesn’t shape the normal curved concaves in his boards anymore and uses the flat inverted vee panels on all his boards which he felt were faster. But then again most of his boards (primarily high performance longboards) are designed to be ridden primarily on the northshore so he’s looking for more control than the average bear.
Maybe this is all BS like you said but I respect his opinion cause just like you guys he’s somewhat of an underground surf hero when things get heavy in the country. And alot of underground locals are his steady clients… And one who’s out there charging and ripping in the big stuff who has a normal demanding 9-5 has my respect.
Tweak the same active ingredient in laundtry soap by 0.5% and put a big bold flashy “NEW AND IMPROVED” artwork on the box, make sure its placed at eye level, and viola!
Meecrafty, I’m sure it was just a type mistake, but it’s “voila”, not “viola”… “viola” actually means “raped”…
When Mctavish used this term on his vee bottoms, and later brewer around 71-72,both had roll tappering to vee.Wide arc tappering down to small arc like a spiral. Mctavish ,brewer, lopez,and all the greats owe everything to dick catri and the east coast . I personally dont care for Maurice as a person,but thats how he started his reverse V thing with Curran by trying to fix some bent preshapes.All i have done here is state what happened way back then , i made no personal claims but have been atacked as such.
I was down in Melbourne Florida in the late 60’s early seventies and Catri showed me how to shape a “Spiral Vee”.He had a company called MTB Surfboards with a good crew of craftsmen.Bill Barnfield about nailed it in his drawing.I think Jim Phillips was doing them before Catri but not sure.There was a lot of innovative underground design during those days.Laying claim to any design would be hard to prove.Kind of like the Lish Brothers getting all the credit for “fish” boards.Every garage builder in San Diego and Encinitas were messing with them back then.The best board I ever made was twisted like a pretzel…only went left but it went left real good.Food for thought?? RB
Its fun to watch everyone dodge the the Mctavish thing .If my posts were read accurately i said the term spiral vee was used for 2 different bottoms by 2 different shapers of major influence.I stated Hynson used a slight roll tappering to vee then flat with a slight kick on his first downrail boards of 1969, this to me was the first use of this bottom that became known as reverse vee later.Obviuosly Mctavish learned his version of the spiral vee bottom on the east coast from catri.
I think my point is more to the fact that credit for certain designs went to Shapers who got “Ink” or were quoted in Magazines or advertisements.Guys like Mike Hynson and later on Bob Mctavish and Brewer were subject to a lot of scrutiny in the surf media.A lot of it was because they were working with companies with money to buy ads in the mags.Heck Velzy was probably doing it before all of them.??Interesting discussion.
Hey Bill, the spiral v that i remember from mr. catri actually hooked back downward at the rail, and wouldn’t be used on a pintail, but diamonds, flat tailed boards, so it looked kind of concaveish…they were kind of stiff though and didn’t hang around too long…i hope it stops raining soon… danny
Hey Bill, the spiral v that i remember from mr. catri actually hooked back downward at the rail, and wouldn't be used on a pintail, but diamonds, flat tailed boards,,,, so it looked kind of concaveish.....they were kind of stiff though and didn't hang around too long....i hope it stops raining soon......... danny
[=Blue]Aloha Danny
I am not sure what you are describing. In a bottom down view, like my drawing, Vee requires the stringer to be lower than the rail rocker. Concave vee, describes the horizontal shape of the planes between the rail and the stringer. Concave, describes the shape of the plane between rails.
Viewed sideways, like my drawing. Are you describing Catri’s rail line as higher than the stringer creating vee in front of the fin, and then it coming quickly back down level with the stringer at the tail, which would create a flat tail. This would seem to be more of a “reverse vee” but one shifted way back on the board. Not that any of these terms are accurate. I am just applying them in what seems like a logical way, and that may be all wrong cause the historical names may not reflect the logic one might expect.
If I understand you, then the rail line would have a big arc in it were the maximum vee was and then came back down where there was no vee or much less, in the tail. I guess that rail rocker line, could look kind of like a section of a spiral and therefore be called a “spiral vee”. I am just trying to visualize what you were describing and understand why it would get called something with the word “spiral” in it, unless there was some kind of visual clue to a spiral somewhere.
Next… where would the “concaveish” part come in. Are you describing the arc lengthwise in the rail line or the horizontal plane from rail to stringer, or rail to rail?
Maybe you will just have to come by and shape me one! Ha!
I have been racking my brain to remember when, who, and where, I first first began to associate all these various bottom contours with names, people and performance. The late 60s were a revolutionary time, such that there was something new on an almost a weekly basis and each new thing was replaced by a new thing so fast that I am not sure I even bothered logging in that kind of data. I think I was just so self absorbed in surfing everyday and making boards any ole way I could think of that it never really mattered much to me what others were doing or why. What a crazy time that was!! I probably should have paid more attention! Ha!