What will happen to the EPS vs. PU debate when someone (Walker Foam?) begins shipping mass quantities of PU blanks from China… especially if they’re high quality close-tolerance blanks!
Which makes me wonder how well EPS/epoxy will be able to compete when PU/and whatever resin system is once again readily available worldwide.
It’s entirely possible that polyurethane foam will soon enter the dawn of a new era, one of even greater popularity.
Choice is good!
won’t it be the same as it was on sunday?
The next generation of high quality PU blanks will kick ass
Styropoxy will remain “alternative”
PU/polyester has the feel
Howzit Bruce, That’s the way to think, Blanks are on the way as I write this. Austrailia, China and even South Africa have blanks on the way and if anything we should be thanking Clark for shutting down and opening up the market. Over the las tfews days I have been in touch with people who have known Clark since the beginning and they say he was a cut throut businessman who would go to any lengths to eliminat competition, even going so far as to lose money until others had to quit. One of my shapers worked in Japan in the 70’s and said that Mitsubishi was producing blanks that were superior to Clark and so Clark maxed out hie warehouse there and lowered huis prices until Mitsubishi had to quit making blank I shtis the type of person we should be thanking, I don’t think so. Just got an e-mail from Japan and they are O k for now since the clark ware house is full there and still selling blanks for the same prices. We have 2 containers on Oahu and there is still inventory at the warehouse which Fiberglass Hi is going to sell for Clark, just sent them my wish list. Also we have a shaper who brings in containers of Clark blanks just for Kauai and he says there is supposed tobe one arriving in the next couple of days plus he still has about 500 blanks in his inventory. I agree that poly may come back stronger than ever. Shapers will have to get usedto the new blanks and the days of the scrape the skin off and glass may be over but the strong will survive and possibly make the shapers better at their craft.Aloha,Kokua
The ‘feel’ doesn’t feel so good if you think about the toxins. TDI ain’t any better in Austraila, China, ZA, or anywhere else than it is here.
Besides, its a only a matter of time before polyester glassing shops are faced with the same decision as Clark - invest in so much equipment that you’re no longer profitable, or close up shop. At least in California, anyway.
While I can mourn the end of an era, I do also look forward to greater environmental protections in this industry.
If you want ‘the feel’ then I’m sure the design forum will be able to discuss it. I’m sure there’s more than you wondering about those characteristics when changing materials.
Everything has its own feel. It’s just a matter of designing it so it ‘feels’ the way you want. That, in part, is what design is all about.
Hmmmmmm… the pot calling the kettle black.
What do you think greater environmental protections would do to neoprene wetsuit manufacturing? Or DuPont nylon and that polyurethane kook cord? When did EPS/epoxy become non-toxic?
Cheers
Howzit Benny, Not all blanks use the dreaded TDI, Just Foam doesn't use it in his blanks and poly resin isn't going away just yet. Glassing factories will upgrade their facilities to comply and things will progress to safer levels. I personally am not mouning the end of an era but am embracing the beginning of a new era where new better blanks will be avaiable and safer condition will be the norm. If and when the axe should fall there's a possibility that epoxy will be in the same boat as poly. Factories will also offer both poly and epoxy choices and surfboards will still be built. Aloha,kokua
I hope so, Kokua. I think customers deserve a choice.
In CA, Santa Cruz County already has a moratorium on polyester glass shops. That’s why, when Rasche opened his new place, they made him go all epoxy. He decided he’d rather do that than outsource his glass work.
Now, he says he wouldn’t use anything else, even if they let him. So its really a chicken-or-egg thing over here. Word gets out, more guys like it, more regulation on the poly shops…poly shops are going to have to decide whether the investment in cleaning equipment is worth it. If their numbers are dropping & costs are rising anyway, they might decide it makes more sense ($) to go epoxy.
That’s good to know about the TDI, thank you. I’m in the recycling business and shipping our problems overseas is a sore point that I deal with every day.
Norm, its all about orders of magnitude. Obviously, there are no practical completely non-toxic soulions. But its pretty well documented that emissions, VOC’s, etc. are much less with epoxy & EPS than with PU/PE. I’m not going to argue that what I use is perfect - but the facts do support it being many times better from an environmental standpoint. Not to mention product life being longer which means less waste; scrap from the process is recyclable…
What’s that line about changing the things I can, accepting the things I can’t, and being wise enough to know the difference?
And leashes last a long, long time when you leave 'em in the car 
Howzit Benny, I posted a thread a couple of weeks ago that the Fire dept was going after glass shops in your area and got replies that it wasn’t going to happen and 1 person said his friends shop had just passed his inspection. Now if the Poly shops can stay open by conforming to the regs then it’s a matter of do they really want to stay in business. One thing is for sure,custom boards are going to be higher priced and those shops will be able to charge more which can cover the upgrading costs. My god friend Tom Brown has a brother with a glassing factory in S.C… I will talk to him and see how his brother is handling the problem. No polys in Surf City, that would be a shame. Maybe you can answer a question I have. What happens to the concrete pieces and dust from the destruction of the Clark Blanks, not being familar with CA any more how do they dispose of toxic waste there.Aloha,Kokua
Usually there are toxic landfills. These are giant holes, carved out of nonporous parts of the world, then lined with clay, geosynchronous liners (rubber & more clay, basically), plastic, drain lines, methane capturing pipework…and the crap is covered with earth or sand every day so its not exposed.
I’d be very surprised if concrete molds were highly toxic. Cured concrete us about as inert as it gets. Its a little porous, but with the heating they did, I’d bet that most of the chemicals gassed out.
I think its more likely that the molds were destroyed because of that industry standard thing. If Clark invented & built them, then even if someone else used them, he might have some product liability. If the second co. became a target, they could look back to Clark as the deep pockets. Safer to remove any chance of future liability.
To me, the absoulte best case scenario would be that shapers & glassers can raise their prices to remain profitable while investing in environmental protections. I hope surfers in general have the wisdom to pay more for a custom, safe, well-made product.
Howzit Benny, Thanks for the info, Now just hope that 20 or 30 years from now some developer doesn’t get their hands on that land and build million dollar toxic homes. The past does have a way of repeating it self. One thing I like about UV resin is after my containers are empty I take the lids off and cure whats left and the transfer station has no problem with me dropping them off since the resin is now just another hard plastic. Unfortunatly most all plastic won’t break down. Aloha,Kokua
II. Carcinogenicity Assessment for Lifetime Exposure
Substance Name – 2,4-/2,6-Toluene diisocyanate mixture (TDI)
CASRN – 26471-62-5
This substance/agent has not undergone a complete evaluation ansd determination under US EPA’s IRIS program for evidence of human carcinogenic potential.
--------------------------------------
monomeric MDI or polymeric MDI (PMDI) would be classified as not classifiable or a Group D chemical. Under U.S. EPA’s 1996 Proposed Guidelines for Carcinogen Risk Assessment, the carcinogenic potential of MDI/PMDI would be characterized as “cannot be determined, but for which there is suggestive evidence that raises concern for carcinogenic effects”.
A commercial grade of MDI (45% by weight MDI) without exogenous activation was found to induce chromosome aberrations in human whole-blood lymphocyte cultures after 24-hr treatment; addition of exogenous metabolic activation significantly increases aberration frequency only at the highest concentration tested (Maki-Paakenen and Norpa, 1987).
Polyester resins have 50 times the vapor of our epoxies. And the epoxies contain no VOC’s. TDI is about the most toxic thing you can imagine. People have died from exposure.
Polystyrene does use pentane as a blowing agent but that indusrty continues to police itself and offer lower and lower emmision resins. Polystyrene foams do not contain liquid VOC styrene monomers like polyester resins do. Styrene is NOT a VOC in EPS. The only VOC in polystyrene foam is a 2.5% pentane. The emmisions in urethane foams are much higher. EPS is recyclable, urethane hasn’t been. If Just Foam isn’t using TDI then their using MDI which is the chemical that killed 5000 people in Bohpal, India. Not exactly the safest stuff either.
Lastly I read someone mistakenly said walker Foam was polyethyene foam. Walker Foam is a TDI based polyether urethane.
Just wanted that to be clear.
Benny--------So I am assuming that you somehow think that “hotwiring” an EPS blank emitts no toxins or even fewer than a PU blank layup with PE. Dude when you start talking about environmental protections: you should find yourself a piece of driftwood or kelp and try to surf on that. You are such a hypocrate. If you want an environmentally friendly surfboard you should give up building or buying boards. The environment would smell alot sweeter without the toxins your Epox/EPS process contributes. At least there would be one less contributor. Do I sound absurd? Look in the Mirror! McDing
check this freely available info , 10 years old …
Following is some information on urethane foam and its dangers .
HAZARD DATA SHEET
URETHANE RESIN SYSTEMS
Monona Rossol, Health and Safety Officer for
United Scenic Artists, Local USA-829, IATSE
October 10, 1995
212/777-0062 or e-mail
75054.2542@compuserv. com
STRAIGHT TALK ABOUT URETHANE FOAM AND CASTING RESINS
“The resin part of a urethane product is not very hazardous. This is because it is not actually a “urethane resin.” Instead, it is any of several types of resins such as polyesters, polyethers, polyols, epoxies, and so on. These resins do not become “polyurethane” until they are reacted (cured, hardened, etc. ) with a diisocyanate. These diisocyanates are the problem.
Diisocyanate hardeners are capable of causing severe respiratory allergies and lung damage. Most notably, they cause a debilitating incurable occupational illness called “isocyanate asthma.” Sudden respiratory spasms and anaphylactic shock on exposure to diisocyanates also has resulted in death among workers using urethanes. There have been cases in which deaths occurred suddenly and without warning in people with no prior history of allergies.
To protect people from these effects, the American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists set and extremely restrictive workplace air quality limit (Threshold Limit Value or TLV) for diisocyanates. To see just how incredibly restrictive (low) the TLV for diisocyanate is, the table on the following page compares it with TLVs for other substances.
TLVs OF VARIOUS CHEMICAL.S COMPARED TO DIISOCYANATES
----------------------------------------------------------------
Substance Threshold Limit Values in parts per million
ethyl alcohol 1000.
rubbing alcohol 400.
mineral spirits 100.
toluene 50.
carbon tetrachloride 5.
phosgene (war gas) 0.1
methyl isocyanatel 0.02
diisocyanates** 0.005
-----------------------------------------------------------------
** This is the chemical that killed thousands of people in an accident in Bhopal, India
** The following are the diisocyanates which have been studied enough to set the 0.005 ppm TLV
-TDI (toluene diisocyanate), CAS # 584-84-9
-MDI (methylene bisphenyl isocyanate), CAS # 101-68-8
-hexamethylene diisocyanate, CAS # 82-06-0
-isophorone diisocyanate, CAS # 4098-71-9
-methylene bis(4-cyclohexylisocyanate),CAS # 5124-30-1
if you look above at the thresh hold limit in parts per million , youll see that while pentane isnt mentioned , it would fit in the same catorgary as mineral spirits , if you compare that figure with that of TDI , youll see TDI is a million times more toxic for the same given amount of exposure , then take into consideration that lightweight EPS is 98.7% air and 1.3% solid , then the 2.5 % of pentane used in EPS , was only present in 1.3 percent of the total …
so that leaves 0.065 % of lightweight EPS having pentane used in its production …
after the bead is expanded , the pentane evaporates out through the cell wall …
no details are available about the total volume of TDI by % used in urethane foam expansion , but unlike pentane , not all the TDI escapes the cell , so when you shape a board your actually still releasing cyanide gas in small amounts …
so while we are all guilty of making an impact on the enviroment , some practices are a million times worse …
literally …
surely you would have to question the foam you use when , an accident in india involving the spillage of TDI killed 5000 people just from the fumes released into the air …
i use epoxy and eps , because i can actually make better boards from it , there stronger ,lighter and go better …
im sure even if it was as toxic as urethane or worse , i would still be drawn to it because of performance , the fact its enviromentally friendlier than other options is just a bonus …
i think P/U has held surfers for so long because board builders have never even given EPS a fair assesment and gone past just having a go once or twice …
its almost amusing that the debate of fumes off a hotwire has been started , its almost as bad as blaming mine or gregs personality for not wanting to try alternatives …
the bottom line is ,what happened to clark , will also plague all blank manufacturers in developed nations in the future …
if a chemical can kill 5000 people than its surely going to have the attention of the EPA …
clarks closure was a wake up call , but it looks like a few crew slept right through the alarm …
regards
BERT
Bert,
all that you say is most probably true, I didn’t check the exact figures but I have no reason not to trust you.
Expanding polystyrene foam produces 2.5% pentane, OK.
Expanding polyurethane (with toluene di-isocyanate) is much more polluting and dangerous, OK.
Now, that does not answer the question I asked in another post:
“To expand polystyrene, you need polystyrene. To obtain polystyrene, you must polymerise a styrene molecule, right? Styrene is not considered very safe nowadays, is it? Isn’t it because of styrene that glass shops are being targeted by EPA?”
So, while EPS certainly is not very dangerous “per se”, those of us who prefer to see the total picture than the final link in the chain will still be more than skeptical…
Even more so since either polyurethane or polystyrene (or epoxy? Not sure about epoxy.) are petrol by-products. We all know (like it or not) that petrol won’t last very long now and it’s going to be more and more expensive.
Your answer to that Clark crisis is a very short-term thing, whether it’s turning to EPS-epoxy or staying with Walker and who knows what other blanks producer.
Granted, it’s good if it prevents a lot of people from losing jobs, especially right before Christmas. Crisis times call for crisis solutions.
But when the crisis is over, it is our duty to think it all over and find a LONG-TERM solution.
I’m sure all of you with a true love for nature and surfing will think the same. Or so I hope.
Unfortunately, I am afraid that a number of people will just say: “Wow! That was a hot one! But, thanks God, everything is back to normal now. Let’s get to work as usual.”
ok crunch the numbers again …
eps uses 2.5% of the solids content in pentane to expand the 1.3% of styrene by volume to make the blank …
so 0.065 % of the blank went into the atmosphere as something considered dangerous(the pentane ) , agreed its still something …
but a urethane blank will discharge a bigger percentage of its prefinished weight into the air plus its a million times more harmful and you can see from the previous TLV chart that a million times more harmful is no exageration …
if you take your average shortboard with an eps core , it would have 350 grams of styrene in it , that styrene is still there 20 years later , its locked up as a polystyrene molecule and doesnt get discharged into the atmosphere , even tho it would probably end up in landfill …
whereas the styrene in resin is released as vapour and a short board would release on average of nearly 1000 grams of styrene and other VOC’s combined , styrene making up at least 600 grams of that total …
so the difference is one will discharge styrene while being used , the other will have the styrene locked into it and so doesnt create a problem in creating ozone depleting gases , but rather takes up space in the ground eventually when it has reached it use by date …
yes still a problem and yes still not the best solution from an enviromental point of view , but still a million times safer than the one we have now from a core point of view and no comparison in the resin …
is there room for improvement , absolutly …
regards
BERT
very interesting. I read the epa report on the TDI and it is a nasty product. Just reading Clarks own admittiance of the cancer lawsuit, and the 3 folks on permanent worker’s compensation disability is enough to make one “handle the product with care”. Since you are more of an expert than I, do you think that the smoothness of his foam was do an excess of this product in his blanks? I also say that if he (clark) was flying fast and loose over the years, than he truly was a victim of his own actions. The last real problem, I have is the lack of accountabliity put on Clark by his buyers. I mean come on! He is your livelihood and you have no idea what is coming down the pike for 20+ yrs. as far as epa issues is concerned. Now everyone is ready to allow Walker to monopolize them. If you don’t experiment with EPS now, you never will because once you crank out walker blanks with consistency, it will be too inconvenient to check out EPS. That’s my two cents anyway.
pensacal
Harderners matter little to me. I’ve been using UV for layups and hotcoats for a number years. I also do a large # of epoxy repairs on soft-tops and Surftechs since 2001. Have lammed boards with it etc. UV doesn’t even smell, let alone emitt the fumes of catalyized resin. All I keep hearing from you guys is how we should cut our own blanks from blocks of EPS. Talk about toxic! The ONLY way you EPS guys are ever gonna take over the market is if PU and PE DOES die. That hasn’t happened yet! You should have got off your board long enough to take Econ. 101. You would then realize that where there is Demand there is Supply. McDing