well thats funny , because right now outside the U.S. the demand for epoxy /eps is far outstriping supply …
its only board builders themselves that dont want change …
consumers are screaming out for it …
the honeymoon is over baby …
dont treat me like a fool mcding …
i ran dual productions side by side …
and when your p/u just sit on the shelves and the epoxies are walking out the door quicker than you can build them …
that is econ 101 in real life …
regards
BERT
ahhhh the eternal mists filled with the unrequited
lovers of bread in france
hula hoops in glendale
cabbage patch dolls in Macy’s childrens
beanie babies in saskatoon
vegiemite in sao paulo
and now screamers outside the U.S.
demanding a fair stripping!
some body ttreat me like a fool
from up here on the hill things look oakie doakie
…ambrose…
when the p/u just sit on the shelves
not this week…
brewer and noll used to argue too.
they even progressed to physicality over their opinions
and their boards were
MORE THE SAME THAN THEY WERE DIFFRENT
why dont sombody say 40 year old technology more often
it has such a nice ring to it.
mr wizard why isnt there a glassing machine?
or a core material that doesn’t need to be surfaced?
or a board for all conditions?
or sombody that’s just plain nice?
what a fool.
yea ambrose is right …
we all build surfboards …
lets just get on with it …
we all have a right to choose what we work with…
if one day i find that no one wants to buy my boards , then maybe it was because i should have stayed with pu/pe …
but if one day the market decides they dont want p/u anymore , then , thats the case …
right now i have 2 options and could go in any direction to stay employed and keep customers happy …
because of doing both im more than qualified to highlight the differences …
sorry if the facts rub some up the wrong way …
apologies for out of place comments …
but chemical equations and reactions are a fact we have to work with everyday …
regards
BERT
ambrose is right . . . balsa is cool. Roy says wood is the next ‘pu’. Hehe . … Still though nothing feels like a beat up, yellowed pu board . . . Yet I feel Greg L, Bert, or someone else will find that some eps n epoxy combo will feel like pu . . .
The only reason there is such a demand for epoxy boards is because of the rise of the “beginner” surfer and they are sold on the idea that epoxy boards don’t ding like the PU boards. Anyone who thinks that an epoxy board performs anywhere close to that of a PU board needs to stay out of the water. What I don’t understand is why so much focus has been put on PU boards and there manufacturing when there are sooooooo many bigger and badder things out there polluting our environment. Hell, nutrasweet (i.e. aspartame) turns into formaldehyde in your stomach but yet you don’t see anyone trying to get it banned from the grocery stores, it’s manufacturers shut down or Donnie Rumsfeld being thrown into prison for rushing it through the FDA without appropriate testing.
Anyone who thinks that an epoxy board performs anywhere close to that of a PU board needs to stay out of the water.
i liked it better when clark was still open …
coz now all the out of work p/u builders and there ignorant attitudes are clogging this place up …
9’-2" x 24 x 2 5/8 epoxy longboard …
one of my team guys does ariel reverses and backhand ariel 360s on a longboard …
wake up and enter the 21st century …
p/u is for kooks who havent tasted the future yet …
just because someone makes an entry level board with a particular brand of resin , doesnt mean all boards made with that resin are learner boards …
i cant believe i just read that , the sad thing is, this mentality and misinformation about epoxy , just keeps getting circulated by board builders who know no better …
someone get some p/u foam into the states quick …
regards
BERT
maybe thats why…ASPARTAMe
that ol nutra sweet is droivin em all mad!
I’m stickin w/maple syrup.
…ambrose…
bless them spigots pokin out o’ them
maple trees.we got so much…
thanks whoever you are…
shape it up ,and get paid
Bert,
I’ve read a lot of the posts concerning toxicity etc. and just to clear up any misconceptions, TDI (or MDI) are not blowing agents for polyurethane foam. They are reactive parts of a two part thermoset polymer (akin to the hardner in an epoxy system). They crosslink into the final solid after which they are no longer “free” TDI or MDI. So, even if you knew the % of TDI in a formulation, that would not tell you how much is released in the foam production. There may be some small release during the polymerization process, but it is not intentional. The stuff is super reactive (part of the reason for its acute toxicity), so the percentage of unreacted TDI in any foam is probably very small. (I can find numbers on this if you want). Given their toxicity, TDI and MDI are not usually handled directly in foam production. They are mixed with a portion of the polyol (akin to the resin side) to create a pre-polymer. This pre-polymer of partially reacted TDI/polyol has much lower vapor pressure (ie less release to the atmosphere) and therefore poses less of a risk (I’m not saying safe).
I am not writing this to defend pu, but to hopefully give people a better idea of what we are talking about. By the way, surfboard foam is little more than a blip on the radar for TDI use. US production is something like 1.4 billion pounds…goes into foam for your car seats, insulation, those cool polyurethane wheels…and on and on.
Did no one read Clarks farewell letter? In the text, was written, “There is a bill in the CA state legislature banning the use of TDI in CA.” Dudes!!!.. THAT is the reason he quit …Period. He would have had to move his operation and he didn’t want to spend MILLIONS to do so only to be harassed again.
That same legislation also is for MDI and IPDI, all isocyanates … so it’s done. No one is making blanks in CA for much longer. That’s the word from the man himself. I believe him.
He also wrote about the coming problems with styrene. Same deal, that will be on a different day.
All the debate is BS because it won’t be you or I who decide what is going to be legel to build in CA or elsewhere in the US or anywhere else in the civilized world.
Read Clarks letter again … closely … there will be a test tomorrow.
Bert, there a lot of people who wouldn’t consider doing aerials on a longboard to be “performing” anything other than a circus act. These people would prefer a very different kind of surfing, one in which they feel pu boards have a better feel for.
The more you insult people, the more they will turn away from you and your product. I know you say you don’t care because you have a one year list already but it’s obvious you do care or you wouldn’t be so defensive and so hostile towards people who have different opions than yours.
You are I??? where did that come from?
Native -----------------You obviously know what you are talking about. You’ve got your chemistry down. But others see $$$$$$ signs and don’t care about the facts. I personally don’t care whether one is as toxic as the other. Just don’t glass or gloss over the facts to present your point of veiw$$$$$$. I realize I am not making any friends here(especially amongst EPS advocates), I’m just not a fan of Hypocracy. FRiggin’ Bad A$$ chemicals are bad no matter what you call them. McDing
slim , its obvious im being defensive …
you have no idea how frustrating it is , to see time and time again people just repeating comments like they were fact …
the bottom line is , no mater how hard you tried (circus act or not ) you couldnt possibly pull ariel 360s on a p/u longboard , eps and epoxy/sandwich composite construction offers much better performance characteristics …
so when someone comes in and says eps/epoxy doesnt ride any good and is suited to entry level surfers , you think i would agree , when the reality is ive spent my whole carreer chasing the holy grail of performance , i dont think there would be a person in the world who has tried to combine as many different materials together in the pursuit of the perfect board as i have …
so when someone comes in here and says SHIT that is blantantly wrong , i will be the first person on the defensive …
the bottom line is performance , if p/u was the best possible performance i could make , then thats what i would ride …
weve had these discussions before , and i respect everyones choice to ride the board or the feel they like …
that is a personal decision …
but if a circus performer is doing stuff on equipment that not another person in the world is doing except for others riding similar stuff , then its obvious those materials have better performance characteristics for doing circus stunts …
how could you possibly compare that to entry level surfing ???
if you saw my reply , it was obvious the guy i was replying to had flawed reasoning …
its like saying i had an alloy engine in a VW and it was slow , there fore all alloy engines are for slow learner drivers …
i dont give a rats if you dont like how i put things and i dont really care who it scares away , if crew cant see past some simple logic , and there just blind followers , then they would be the last people i would want as customers anyway …
greg and myself and no doubt many others have known for a long time , what the rest of the world is just starting to find out , that eps and epoxy resins combine to make a way better performance option for surfboards , its just a bonus that its safer to work with and the boards end up being more durable as well …
to date the biggest opposition to eps and epoxy have been lazy board builders who dont want to change there routine or use there brain …
hence all the propaganda and crap that keeps getting circulated , its driven by lazy board builders trying to keep the status quo …
if a guy wants to cruise on his longboard, thats kool …
but if you want to push the boundries of whats achievable on a surfboard then logic will point towards epoxy and eps …
so anyone who thinks that these materials are just for learners , basically has no idea what so ever …
i will defend what i know to be true …
but i wont consider the viewpoint of those that just rant cliche’s and have no real experience …
and when i see someone who is just parroting off the most current propaganda , then they will get hit with a blunt logical statement to help them see the information they have been fed isnt entirely accurate , if that comment is offensive to them , then obviously they put pride above the facts and knowledge …
i will be the first person to adjust my thinking in the light of new information ,if someone highlighted a new facet or came in with facts that went against what i knew , then i would investigate , and if learnt something new and changed my mind and way of reasoning , then you grow …
but others get presented with facts or new information , just get all fired up, and let pride and an unwillingness to change there line of reasoning get in the way …
in any case i will defend , and apologies for the ocassional offensive comment i throw in , i know that they will hit a nerve , but your right , i will try and state the case without throwing in the comments that detract from the message , like you say , i only put people off …
but if im presenting facts and they still hurt , then no apologies for those …
regards
BERT
Bert, people are not stating “facts” to which you can objectively disagree with and prove them wrong! This is surfing. People are stating their opinions of what board construction performs best for the type of surfing they like to do. And, as you surely know, there will always more people who consider “crusing on their longboard” to be the point, the ultimate ‘performance’ than there will be people seeking to push the boundries of what is possible on a longboard. (aerials on a longboard remind me of racing tractor trailers…). So you are going to continue to get people who claim that pu/pe boards perform better than lightweight, flexible eps based boards.
You could go a long way to proving people that your idea of proper surfboard construction can “perform” better than traditional longboards by making one that is heavy, similar in shape (i’m not interested in a 24" wide board I can’t even get my arm around), and has the glide that the majority of longboarders are always going to consider “high performance” for their style of surfing.
As for being stuck in the past or being afraid of change, take a look around. Our societies have made many social and technological changes since pu/pe construction became the standard. Do you think the world is heading in the right direction? Or are things going to hell in a handbasket? Can you really blame a guy for wanting to just get a few waves and hold on to the exact same feeling surfing gave him and his predecessors in simpler, better, healthier times? Is this guy really an idiot worthy of your contempt and vitriol?
My two cents, which is worth nothing, but here it is anyway. Alot of talk has been thrown around lately from both sides. Here is what I see in a broad sense. Alot of the resistance to eps/epoxy is that it doesn’t feel like pu/pe.
Ok. So it seems the main argument is that people want a certain feeling from their board, and that is more important than performance. Fine. Stick with PU. Now I know I might be preeaching to the choir here, but if most surfers were concerned with feel over performance, they wouldn’t be riding shapes that the pros ride. But, people are riding six foot squash tails, 18 wide by 2 thick. Seems to me then, that alot of those guys value performance over feeling. EPS/epoxy and pu/pe can exist together in harmony (oh what a hippie I am). But seriously, if you want performance, if you want to throw spray, launch airs, and gouge SICKKKKKK, go figure it out with some high tech eps epoxy trip. And if you want to drop in pull in and glide, well then you better find some pu or keep your current board free of dings and fixed up nice until supply is replenished. After all, in the end, it’s ALLLLL surfing…I’ll see ya in the water.
Greg,
I am again trying to clear up some misconceptions…mainly I am doing this because the clark foam closure has hit the mainstream media and questions over toxicity, hazards etc. in the production of our toys are on a lot of people’s minds.
The reports that I have read say the release by the Union Carbide plant that killed some many in Bhopal was methyl isocyanate MIS (cas#624-83-9) and not 4,4’-Methylenebis(phenyl isocyanate) MDI (cas#101-68-8). For most foam production, we are talking about MDI. Granted these are “chemical cousins”, they are not the same thing. Kind of like when you say the amines in your hardner are not the same as DETA or TETA. They are not and so we must consider the actual chemical we are talking about.
Again I am not saying this to defend pu or to say that these isocyanates are safe, it’s just that I feel correct information is better than rumors or partial truths.
Rob
ps I am not sure if I would trust Clark’s letter as the evidence for what the California legislature may or may not do. I am sure there are some lawyer types on Sways that might be better able to chime in on this. Will the test be multiple choice or fill in the blank?
pss OK curiosity got the best of me. I searched this site: http://www.legislature.ca.gov/port-bilinfo.html and got no hits for bills containing the term “toluene diisocyanate” or “toluene di-isocyanate” or “isocyanate”. Any lawyer types care to comment?
…Native customs; I used MDI foam (Elova foam) and is not possible to obtain the exact TDI finish. its got more like bread s consistency…much heavier…I think for these reasons there re only 2 MDI s surf foam factories (Homeblown, Elova)…
My point exactly. Different isocyanates will have different chemical properties and different toxicity profiles. While they may be similiar in some regards, they will not be exactly the same.
Greg has done a good job of trying to educate people on the differences among the amines used as epoxy hardners, so I am trying to continue and get people to realize that when you are talking about risks (toxicity, allergic response etc.) or properties of the final product, those differences in chemical names have meaning. I realize that not everyone cares to relive the horrors of most chemistry classes (and I’ve tried to keep this relatively non-egghead), but if we’re going to “play” with these things a little more education can’t hurt.
“p/u is for kooks who havent tasted the future yet”
“The future” is not synonymous with “way better”… except in advertising.
Individuals from other areas of life who dedicate themselves to the preservation and perpetuation of traditional ways are often highly regarded.
Fact is, the taste of the future makes many people sick.
pu boards are easier and cheaper to built than eps
most of the glass shop never want to switch to epoxy
more difficult for mass production . poor resin quality
clark foam policy