What do you think the S stands for in EPS? The manufacturing of EPS is not environmentally friendly as proven by Marko’s move to Tijuana from Corona and the threatening closure of EPS plants near populated areas. Environmental protections will shut down an EPS facility as quickly as a TDI factory.
the S stnds for styrine.
Well we shall see. I don’t live outside the US. The market for PU is as strong as ever here. I have seen only three types of boards being sold widly in Hawaii and Calif. I have been in a few Major shops on a recent mainland trip and checked out inventory. There is lots of PU/PE, some hand-shaped EPS/Epoxy and the rest are your pals from Thailand(Surftech). PU/PE is still ruling here in the US. I have yet to see any of the Firewire compsand or anything similar in a shop. Which doesn’t say anything except that compsand will always have its advocates and fans, but will in all liklyhood not see widespread popularity. McDing
Check my post. I misplaced it and replied to ambrose., but really meant it for you. No offense, but you guys Down Under always go your own way. The only great innovation to come from Down Under was Simons’ “Thruster”.
that’s funny the marketing spin on TAM . . . in college they call it change management . . .
But if you look into it . . . it states that most people are
a) lazy or looking for the easy way out
b) in it for the money or for themselves
c) perceptions play more a role that actual results
d) pavlov’s theory works better on humans than on dogs
e) coming from da old school is so cool, to rule; here’s a shuffle fool, can ya dig it? **
**in dance, break dancing / 80’s hiphop / rap in the definition of ‘oldschool’ for rap circles, busting an early 80’s intro steps into your break dance routine is saying, “dude that’s old school,”
but surfing’s different. You get someonebody stoked or stocked (surfermag) on a board of a certain style / material . . .
look at the fish movement.
follow the same steps as that . . . and EPS will be the new PU.
follow the same steps as that . . . and EPS will be the new PU.
Or fall flat on its face. Perception is a fickle thing, and anyone who markets to it, rather than performance, durability, or some other real (i.e. measurable) value would do well to recognize that it is an irrational process, and be prepared to live with every possible result…
-Samiam
The fact is that most people that ride hand shaped EPS/Epoxy say that they out perform PU/polyester boards. They are lighter and have better flex characteristics. Also, because they are layed up with epoxy they are stronger and more durable then standard polyester resin boards. Yes, they might be more expensive but for a better product price is not everything.
the problem that forever dooms surfing
is the “bro-deal” and the encrusted mentality that surrounds it and
occupying 80% or more of the PUPE re-curring buyer market.
add-in the mass purchase influx of pop-culture Blue Crush and MTVers and you can see how the offshore problem came about.
this nirvana belief that making less high priced custom boards will save the industry is not recognizing the fact that the majority of the recurring buyers aren’t willing to truly compensate the builder today for the amount of labor put in to making these things not including the intellectual property that’s developed and poured into it. There has always been the plague of the backyarders but combined now with the offshore cloning will prevent most local builders from getting what they are truly due. Sooner or later the numbers don’t jive and it’s just not worth it anymore…
there’s not going to be enough inshape rich boomers around to keep an industry afloat that primarily markets itself globally to the 12-25 year old market.
ask anyone in the business
it’s the bro-deal mentality that’s the 800lb gorilla that needs to be dealt with
if your customer isn’t even willing to compensate you for what your work is worth today
how do you expect them to pay you more when you tell them you got a better product.
and will 2-3 $800 boards you sell make up for the 15-20 $350 boards you’re selling today?
The retail floor space mark up in some places is already already 100%-200%.
If you produce a board you now want to wholesale for $500-$700 versus $250-$350 do you really think they are going to move them at $1000 or more?
Anyone in this business knows how hard it is already
the new tech isn’t going to make it easier business wise
infact the recent trend towards the retro (heavy log/keel fish/single fins) movement is counter intuitive to anything regarding high tech. And it’s those young guns that are deep in the pits of the high performance shortboard market are the worst bro-deal culprits.
Know your market before making any big plans…
and the folks at sways are the wrong folks to base it on…
Quote:
...it’s the bro-deal mentality that’s the 800lb gorilla that needs to be dealt with
if your customer isn’t even willing to compensate you for what your work is worth today
how do you expect them to pay you more when you tell them you got a better product…
This mentality isn’t confined to the surfboard business, although it is pretty blatant there. There is a name for companies that are afraid to risk losing customers by charging enough for their products to remain in business. They are called Chapter 11 candidates. There is also no industry without its own complement of failed wannabes who thought that they could lose a nickel on every unit, but make it up on volume…
-Samiam
The situation as you describe it is not true. The styrene in EPS is not the environmental problem as it is bound in poly form. (Hence the “P”) The problem is the pentane which is given off in the pre-expanding and molding process. TDI off-gassing is way, way more dangerous and unsafe.
Marko is a privately owned company and does not have large amounts of capital to retrofit plants. It costs over a million dollars to install a recouperative set-up in So Cal foam plants. Most of the large plants here in the 80’s were private and had to move out of the general area. Large companies like Foam Fabricators, Inc. stayed and installed the equipment and are still healthy business-wise. I know this from personal experience. Also, foam molding for surfboards is just peanuts to these companies. They are after the large packaging accounts and the building industry. The moves are more economic than environmental at this date. The economics of shipping large containers of molded foam by truck drives the industry more than environmental concerns.
13 years in the EPS industry, 35+ years backyarder
Hello,
Here in Brasil the EPS blanks are getting more popular every day, and if you want to buy a good quality Pu blank they are very expensive or you can get a shitty blank that shrinks and gets yellow. So that´s why board shapers are using polyestirene, you can find those foams everywhere and they are not only less toxic but they are cheaper too. [code]
Hi Oneula -
That was a very interesting read.
I’m not sure how sophisticated surfing consumers really are. If magazine ads are an indication, not very. Most pick a stick off the rack based on color or label and hit the water. How many of those consumers give a shit about making their own or even how they’re made?
Even Swaylockers have issues with family and job responsibilities. Most of us like to at least tinker as hobbyists but surely there are many among us who have real jobs and just want to get home, play with the kids, attend to “honey-dos” or go surfing.
“I’m busy. I’ve got ten things I absolutely need to do. Twenty I really should do—and at the end of the day, I’ve only done three or four of them. So just email me a report that tells me what’s on fire today and how to fix it. And if you can eventually tell me what’s going to catch fire tomorrow and what I can do to prevent it, great! If not, I don’t want it and I’m not going to use it.”
On the other hand, I think one can draw an analogy that for most of the major manufacturers, it is indeed cheaper, easier and just as effective to hire the “window washers” over in Asia. The newest Surftech models would indicate that this has already happened and is a trend that is gaining momentum.
Overseas ops have a reputation of cutting through a lot of BS and getting down to basics… i.e. “How many, what color and when do you need them?” They have already adopted the technology and know how to use it. They are also well versed in business, manufacturing and global distribution concepts.
Considering the rapid increase of imported surf product, the TAM, PU and EOU concepts and the selling of new tech as it applies to domestic surf product manufacturing operations (IMO) becomes more and more irrelevant.
I agree John
it just seemed an excellent analogy for the previious and ongoing battles Greg has been faced with in getting the adoption of Epoxy and EPS technologies in the Surf Board industry. It’s also a warning to Firewire with their hype campaign regarding new tech. Kind of like Tinkler and his tinkler tail, Paul and his Fat Pengiun, Roy and his dragon boards, Jeff and his Gemni and Griff and his 5-fin.
this inherent resistance to change and the backyarders with their justasgoodas bro-deal offers will continue to eat away at the custom market while offshore production takes care of the rest. For busy people, justasgoodas often fits the bill especially if you can get it at half the price.
New foam from the exClarksters at USblanks along with Midget and all the other will soon proliferate the market with really justasgoodclark PU within the year. Even better stuff(more toxically blown) may also be soon available from offshore from entrepeneurial middlemen and the “why change” mentality will rear it’s ugly head again. The market Clark controlled with an iron fist has been shattered the end result is a prcie war and going out of business sales for the backyarders to feast on…
No doubt new tech is on the rise and we’ll soon see a glut of new fangled approaches to get what once was a very simple job become just a tad more complicated.
And just like here on wallstreet at the first smell of a fresh kill
bears eventually always come out of hibernation to feast on the spoils of others…