QRQ= Quads are Quick

Industry Talk
1

I wanted to open up the topic of Quad fins…seems quite a few people out there have a negative preconceived notion about four fin boards!

I’ve explained to a few of my customers that this year stands to be the year that quads finally get realized. There are a number of reasons, but a primary one is that they are capable of higher speeds than a tri. I’m sure people will take exception to this claim, which is fine. I’ll give you a little R&D that brought me to this conclusion.

Back in the 80’s I had a factory in SB in the old Radon Boatyard. Bob Krause (BK), my other shaper decided to start playing with fins during a week long swell at Rincon. We had already done the single, twin, tri and four fin gambit, so he cranked out a 5 fin and came back to report how fast the board was. I replied “I think the 5th fin is along for the ride”. I had been riding a quad at the Con pretty regularly because I’m goofyfoot there and found I liked the backside drive I could get out of 4 fins. I had also played with grouping my cutback fins tighter together and played with assymetrical foils (60/40, 70/30. 80/20 and even concave).

Anyway, BK’s quest got us going so the next day we had a 6 finner or “Hexamatic” as I called mine. We had concaved front fins and varying foils cants and toe ins set up off what BK insisted was the Greek principle of the vent. The fins were overlapped to reduce drift, and if you looked down at them, the placements had an arc to them with the rearmost fins toed slighly OUT(!) There was a lot of area from all these fins, which we were calling a “fence” and th tails were riding high. So I scooped out the tailblock of my hexamatic leading up to the deckline which ran straight on top and the soft swallows also curved up to meet the deck (suction).

The surf kept holding, so we went back the next day with 7 fins, then 8, we decided to skip 9 becuz it was gonna be like the 7 we concluded…and then BK had built a whole new 10 finner. There were and are pics of that board somewhere but I don’t have it in my possession. I just got the 8 finner back from CI shaping factory (ironnically BK died in a car accident while on surfari in Costa Rica a few years ago and they only now decided to clear this stuff out).

Anyway, (the whole reason for this story is that) from all the designer steroids going on that week, it really became quite clear how dynamic a difference there is from including or excluding a center fin into your equation.

We know a twin turns rail to rail the quickest because there is no 3rd fin in the back. Add a tri and you have leverage. Hence what Simon Anderson was looking for in the first place. He is a big guy and he wanted a drivier board…by adding side fins he created leverage and the thruster was born. But it seems like a lot of people stopped there.

Quads also have leverage, but look at the position of the leverage: along the rail. This is a different dynamic than the center fin position of the tri. Which do you think will wash out faster, the rear tri or quad? Where’s the speed at, the center of the tail or the rail? What setup can deliver more power and acceleration?

Sure there are variables related to quads (cant, toe, foil, spread, etc.) but tri fins also have variables as previously mentioned. The obvious fact is surfboards are comprised of compounding curves.

So the “Rincon Design Week” really made it clear to us this chief difference between surfboards with side fin only configurations & designs including center fins. An added note on the fence of fins…these boards “swooped” throug turns…much like a seagull riding apparent wind (air wave pushed in front of the ocean wave). If you attempted a sharp cutback or vertical move the boards wanted to powerdrift through the move much like a single keel fin. Years ago I watched Nat Young at Rincon on a single keel being the only one that day at low tide able to make it from Indicator all the way down to the seawall…how much did the keel play in this?

Stretch is quoted in the FCS site as saying “think of quads as a tri fin with the rear fin moved out to the rail”. He’s right on with this…we’re both lifelong surfer/shapers that became boardsailor’s and experienced incredible speeds while surfsailing. Anything that boosts overall board speed stands to be an added advantage. Look at C.J. Hobgood’s recent win in “soft” conditions at the Body Glove contest. He had only ridden the board once. Ask him if he’s a believer…

Quads are Quicker than tri fins!

Added on 5/28/07…check out www.mckeesurf.com then check out Mission Quattro

2

Nice posting, please take a picture of the 8 finner if you get time. I recently built my first quad(conversion from thruster) , a short fat board for small waves & It definitely works better than a tri or twin for the same outline.

There seem to be 2 schools of thought on rear fin placement. The twin keel split in two school, keepsthe fins close to the rail and the thruster school which seen the centre fin split in two and moved out.

Are there major differences between the two setups in performance.

3

Great, now I’ll have to buy four fins instead of three. (Are you sure this is not a marketing ploy cooked up by FCS?). But seriously though, I am thinking about trying a quad setup on my next longboard as they sound very interesting to me.

4

Forget anything I said…just glass on a single fin and go surfing.:slight_smile:

5

Well actually, there are a lot of different ways to approach the four fin deal…since I was doing this back in the 80’s we had a usual type twin set up with a smaller set of trailing fins. These were in further from the rail than the front set and if memory serves me correct (don’t count on it) about 3" -3-1/4" (one base) behind the front set. Front set was about 1-1/4" to 1-1/2" in from the rail and towed in 1/4"…sounds about right. Don’t recall the cant on front set probably 3 to 5 degrees.

Rear set is in from the referencing from center stringer relative to the front set…they were not way in from the front set…the deal is this: if you spread the rear fins further away from the front you are going to increase leverage (levering action on the rail) resulting in longer more drawn turns (if out on the rail). Too much makes a tight board. If you go too close a cluster than why bother in the first place?

Since everyone has different tastes for a myriad of reasons(where do you surf? How do you surf? Are you a tall lanky surfer or a short squatty guy? All these facets have to do with what will be optimum for you.

That’s the fun of design…people were swearing by those twinzers whereas other people thought they sucked.

The main idea I wanted to put out there is that quads have a different vantage point for leverage…more on the rail…the more you move those trailing fins to center the less that leverage will be until you get to center…so what’s the point if you are going that route…it’s kinda like one time when Greenough and I were talking about fins and he said:

“Yeah, twinds fins work good…they work even better the more you move them closer together until they are one”.

Typical George.

6

7

Yup, that’s the Octi Fin…bit hard seeing the smallest set but you can if you look real close.

Makes me sad to see that pic considering the circumstances.

I came back from New Zealand with a phone message from Clyde (Beatty) filling me in on his car accident and how he was sorry to break it to me this way but felt I should know ASAP. At least BK’s last day was surfing some great Costa Rican waves with his team guys and is wasn’t long and painful.

That’s all I can handle to write at this point. R.I.P.

8

I’m going to retake the pic that expired (don’t know why) from Eastern Pacific on this old thread. If you wanna breathe new life into your surfing try a quad. If you wanna stick with how you’ve been surfing for the last 69 years, that’s fine too.

No pressure here.

9

 

hey dead my quads in the eightys all had channells

i think our modern train of thought is  worth the time lapse

 

** cheers huie
**

10

Right on Huie!

I’ve been corresponding with Bruce (McKee). I give him major props for the dedication he has had toward extensive R&D of quads. There is probably no one else that has taken it to that extreme. He can be part of my “brainiac” club anytime.

I get bored with the conventional wisdom that promotes surfing’s stagnation. Let’s get real… airs are gr8, but so is power surfing. On any given day, I’d still be impressed to surf with Kelly and Barry Kanaiapuni side by side.

Some guys say, forget the past - evolve.

Yeah, I know the digital age promotes ADD & ADHD, but try to focus for more than 3 minutes, you might learn something!

You don’t get anywhere without knowing where ya been.

The best surfboard designers in the world are all still over 45.

It’s not a case of us against them… we are all together…goo goo gajoob… !

11

hey dead i might be o t here but for what its worth?

 

**
              surfboard manufacturer  v       surfboard maker (artisan)**
**
 surfboard maker
is a highly motivated individual who has a dedication to his craft from the time the project is envisioned  he will  select the right medium for his project ( right blank) he will glue up the rocker & then go at it to extract his vision.  ‘‘the dance o so much his alone’’    his preparation of the final shape will be  diligent as he is the glasser.  his glass schedual will be well thought out for the design as the glasser he will seek no short cuts.    for he is the sander.

as the shaper he continuies his  extraction of the final image he has set his sights.

his gloss work will also be off the highest standard   all his little tricks will ensure the fact that as the glosser he is the  polisher.

it is here as the cutting compound starts to release his image of what was trapped in there all along he starts to be  rewarded as the image glittering & reflecting a smile straight back at him.   like a proud father he picks it up puts it under his arm fondles the rails & nods proudly to himself.   

 a touch of sadness as the customer arrives to collect the prize.   for he doesnt mind if he just adds it to his collection
.
    but then  when the customers eyes light up and the words of joy spill out
he then is satisfied and ready to move on.

the surfboard manufacturer
well what can i say for he does non of the above his eyes glint only by images of 100s
there is a complete difference between the two**

**cheers huie
**

12

Hello DS,

man you re a grave digger!

, lot of older threads going on lately

 

I would like to take this opportunity to put again a thread posted couple of months ago:

 

…Hello fellas,

Yesterday a customer (a kid) asked me a question, which is one of the most wondering, about the difference between a quad and a thruster,
I decided to open this topic because over the years have seen a certain percentage has “fear” about something not so “known” (quad).
I see that if one starts trying to explain possible differences (in an easy way, etc), the percentage of afraid people still left with doubts. No technical questions, but “existential” ones to say something…might be for the media or marketing or mass behaviour.

I hope you understand the point I want to get.

thanks

…Something like there are designs, surf styles and body types that suit better a quad than a thruster.

What to do to “convince” (why try? because custom work is different than stock boards…) of it and the customers dont be afraid to make the change,  or they thought that the board will not work, will not work, will not work properly, etc

 

 

hey Huie

I really like your comment

may be one of your best here.

Several years ago I wrote a book (unpublished) about building surfboards and your comment really fit the fucker

may be someday I steal it ha ha

13

Hello boys,

Huie, funny, I just cheched out JS industries site then went on sways and straight to this thread.

Any way, while I was on the JS site I counted how many shops he has listed a stockists, **356 **shops.

It would be a full time job just to sign all those boards… Mr. Steverson has got it sown up!

…I like what you wrote mate, I might use it one day, put it on my factory wall maybe.

14

I n the past 3 years I have been shaping quad longboards for myself. At first try I liked how easy they made the first bottem turn. Then I realized how fast they would go down the line. I shaped one for a customer this year and he loves it. I studied Mckee’s ideas and followed his set up for longer boards. The man knows what he’s talking about. I’m totally sold on the idea of it making a “faster, looser” board. Love to see some pics of your boards. Thanks for the post. this is something I thought about and this is a great sounding board for my findings as well.

15

I’ll see what I can dig up. I may have a pic of the quad I made for Olympic Volleyball Gold Medalist Todd Rogers (Beijing) that by his own quote “I love that board”… he’s been riding it for the last year. 6’4" if I recall right, Stealth tail (like a swallow with nipped tips ad a v notch cut out).

Huie… that was eloquent. Somebody spruced you up to write such polished prose. Meet a new woman or something? LOL. Seriously, it really tugged my heartstrings.

Some surfers relish trying new designs and will be open to jumping on a quad, others have problems adjusting quickly to different boards and surf the same way they did 108 years ago…zzzzzzzzzzzz. I made myself a real clean single fin one winter just to push the replay button for awhile. I paddled out at Indicator (Rincon) and purposely flipped the board once out there then watched people’s face for reactions…

 

…whaaaa… single fin? What is he doing?

The board dropped in faster than a tri and self adjusted in hollow pockets once the tide dropped. But I also had to rotate inward to keep full trim to make it around the corner if I wanted to kiss the seawall.

Surfboard shaper’s mantra: For what you get, you always give up something.

16

Oh Yeah!  Let's see!  Customers, R&D, Factory, Twins, Quads, Design,  Balsa, Malibu chip" restoration????.   Thought I was in the wrong place there for a minute.  Thought I was over in "General Discussion" where these two threads of countless "dribble" belong.

17

Huh?

I didn’t realize YOU were the one who determined what is relevant or not.

I stand corrected.

Huh?

What time does the anger management class start?

18

Oi, Mc Ding A Ling.

Tell us what you really think, ha ha

 

19

Dead, I’d appreciate hearing more about the role of the 5th fin.  AKA the center fin.  You touched on it, and seemed to imply importance, but I’m eager for more.  I have a couple of Griffin 5 fins (mod fish and a bigger rocket) and have pretty much gone exclusively with 4/5 fin board in what I now build for myself and others. Many thx.

all the best, Greg

20

Okay. You got me.

Ah, first… Mc Ding. If this is too ‘dribbly’, go over to the rocker apex threads and I guarantee a good head ache from it.

In recent correspondence with Bruce McKee, it was enlightening to see how he had explored the four and five fin in terms that I had not. Admittedly, my approach was more conventional, following along the lines of mainstream rail placement for twin and thruster side fins.

Our multi fin Rincon week of exploring one thru ten fin setups made one point very clear to us. That, being that when you have a center fin position added to any grouping of side fins, that the rail to rail turning action is reduced in the quickness to shift from rail to rail.

My support evidence is the twin fin. I still maintain that nothing turns sharper or faster than a twin fin without the third center fin creating the leveraging effect that Simon Anderson and Dick Brewer (on Reno Abellira’s early versions) sought.

All of the discussion here will primarily be about leverage. The quad became an attractive design element to explore because of the promise of speed while maintaining a high degree of maneuverability. Really loose, yet really drivey seemed like two contradictory terms to me at first. Could there actually be a panacea for surfboard design?

It was probably around 1983 or so that we did the Rincon Fin Week Experiments.

Okay, so the five finner. The set up had tightly grouped quads (unlike McKee’s dedicated quattro setup with the farther fin spread and rear fins much closer to the stringer. In my assessment, the closer to center rear quads would result in less leveraging of the rail. Closer to rail quads with wide spread result in so much leverage to the point of rail grab… bummer.  too tightly clustered quads don’t provide desired drive depending upon fin positioning up from the tail and planshape being used.Of course foil, cant, and toe in choices also play a factor in how loose or how tightt/drawn/drivey a result one produces.

There are sooo many variables that can be used with quads to achieve a desired effect, that this is without a doubt WHY more people didn’t (or don’t) include one in their quiver. A lot of surfers don’t shift easily from different rides and staying with tri fins could be compared to a guy that was so used to a twin that he would never switch to a tri fin.

With McKee’s four fins, I imagine the toe in and cant were different too, he has it all documented. The guy is a closet librarian or something. Unbelieveable.  What I was surprised about was how much faster the five fin was from a thruster. You would think the extra fins would represent added drag, but I learned during that windsurfing era how fins add LIFT.

We had our own in house fin manufacturing and were doing glass ons for nearly everything (except single fins and experimental boards I was trying using boxes for on the beach changes), so it wasn’t outlandish to foil concaves and eliptical foils into our equation. This may have had some bearing on the increase in speed I felt, but I don’t think that the foils were the only reason the five fin version was faster than the tri fin.

Still, suffice to say, that ANY fin configuration that we tried 3,5, 7… that had the center fin, the turning “quickness” from rail to rail, was significantly decreased. This doesn’t mean the boards were slow, I’m denoting the term “quickness” to only apply to changing from rail to rail.

In that sense, you have to consider a fin’s base area, even if we are talking about a twin fin. By my reasoning, and I believe it to be quite sound, a narrower based vertically inclined pivot twin fin will turn quicker rail to rail than a long based keel fin… and so on.

Our overlapping of multiple rail positioned fins (intended to reduce or eliminate drift) didn’t really pan out, because as I previously stated, there was so much area created by all these fins, that it created a fence with lift… initially the tails were riding higher out of the water. There was a lot of water moving through them at an accelerated rate. It could be presumed that the water flowing through all these fins with their corresponding foils (concave, 80/20, 70/30, 60/40, 50/50) would slow these boards down with enormous amounts of drag, but that’s not what happened!

Even the toe ins, that followed each other in a progressive arch with the last set of 50/50 foiled fins actually toed about 1/8" out from center… didn’t throw a brake on the communion of fins. The deca-fin was fast, albeit very smooth just like the hexamatic and octi-fin. They didin’t turn, they SWOOPED.

Obviously it can be argued that ANY fin slows a surfboard down and penetrates the boundary layer thereby providing directional stability. But they also provide lift, leverage, and other features too extensive to go into here.

If we were testing a five fin in a water tank and positioning was set to represent flat water, straight on versus any angle of attack, then perhaps my assuption that the five finner was faster than a tri could be disproved. However, since surfboards are nearly always planing at angles with frequently a small percentage of the total surface area of the bottom in contact with water (wetted surface area), and the fins experiencing angle of attack, disparity of heavy and light side pressure and varying degrees of wash, and any degree of leveraging dependnt upon rider need at any given moment… I’d stick by my conclusion.

Sorry if this sounds dribbly. If ya don’t like to think about this stuff, get a single fin or better yet an alaia.

There is some REALLY impressive surfing of four fins on You Tube. Curren at J Bay shows McKee’s stuff in demanding conditions… Kelly ripping on a 4 finner with quite different surfing from Curren… Tom Carroll, and esp. Shane Dorian really exploding on a quad. Just click on You Tube, surf around and ponder the possibilities. If you find yourself starting to feel too frenetic from that, just rent a Frankie Avalon, Annette Funicello movie or take a tranquilizer.