**
just put a smiley on the end of it huie lol
**
Look…if you guys think I was out of line…I am sorry for that.
But as I told another associate of mine…I will stand for what is right and (to reference huie) I don’t give a f##k all what anybody thinks about it.
GL’s article, or press release, or whatever is f##king WRONG…and I just happen to know the truth…the facts.
Not opinions…not hype…facts, backed by evidence…that someone else is trying to take the credit for somebody’s innovation.
F##K THAT!!! It happens too much in this industry already. So you now what? I’m taking a freaking stand.
“All it takes for evil to prevail is for good people to stand by and do nothing” (not implying GL is evil…it’s just a reference)
Sorry…but I WILL NOT stand by and do nothing…and I will not back down…especially if it’s something I think is important.
But look…at the end of the day…I’m still always the laughing, joking guy
Did I answer your question huie? and listen…always much respect.
Hey all,
Rey here from Entropy. Guess I've been called to chime in here. Thanks to Todd for defending Entropy's history in the green resin world. Few things:
1) If the new Resin Research product truly is made from sustainable materials, then congrats to Greg for taking it one step further to help the industry go green in yet another direction. As he is a pioneer in epoxy surfboards, I know it's an uphill battle convincing board builders to move away from polyester and onto epoxy, let alone a bio-based epoxy. So good for him …. and the planet, right?
2) Yes, Entropy first developed our bio-epoxy over 2 years ago. We did our first blog post back in 2008 about the resin. Since then we have had other media coverage, the Forbes article probably being the most mainstream. But we did not release it for sale until mid 2009 because we were careful to ensure that not only did the resin hold up from a performance standpoint, but also to improve the product and to verify the sources of our sustainable materials. We are currently undergoing 3rd party validation (which takes time and $$$ by the way if you want to do it legitimately). We hope to have this before year's end. Both my brother / partner and I are engineers and scientists (M.S. Materials Science Engineering and PhD in Biochemistry). We are trying to avoid the "greenwashing" that is so common these days.
3) Greg's distributors and partners in California first asked us if they could distribute Entropy's resins in Fall of 2009. When I asked them about conflict of interest, they said Greg had no intention of developing a bio-based epoxy. So this definitely is news to us. Either Greg did a great job of keeping his product under wraps or somehow had a change of heart. But maybe Greg can tell us how his product came about?
To clarify what's been stated about Entropy's bio-based epoxy systems; Super Sap and Surf Sap…here you go….
Traditionally, the epoxy industry has looked to bio-based components (like epoxidized cashew nut oil and soybean oils)as flexiblizers; read Diglycidyl Ethers. They are called reactive diluents and usually used in small percentages (like 5-10%) to actually benefit the elongation of a resin. However, there have been many studies showing that at higher percentages, these reactive diluents result in an epoxy that is too soft or flexible to be used in fiberglass reinforced composites, like surfboards. Entropy's breakthrough was being able to increase the bio-content by developing bio-sources that don't have this negative effect when used.
You can look at both www.entropysports.com and www.entropyresins.com for more details and pics. But, we've had boards in the water for over 2 years now throughout California and Hawaii. We have testimonials from environmentally bent pro surfers like Dave Rastovich and Jeremy Sherwin as well as eco-board builders like Synergy, Danny Hess, and Jake Moss. The key here was to be evaluated by people in the Surf Industry who hold both sustainability and performance to the highest standards, not companies or people just looking for the next trendy marketing advantage.
We've developed a suite of off the shelf formulas for different applications from surfboards to furniture. We fine tune custom formulations for large customers depending on the combination of working, performance, and sustainability requirements.
Our most sustainable formulation contains up to 75% bio-based content. Our lowest 33%. A combination of epoxidized pine oils and other waste veggie oil by-products are used in our epoxy resin. This combination varies on application. All of our bio sources are actually by products from industrial waste streams of pulp processing and bio-fuels production. These by-products would normally be burned off or discarded. As a result, we've reduced the amount of chlorinated chemicals, water, and energy required to generate our epoxy. A side benefit is increased safety to the users. We are continually looking to increase the sustainable bio-content of our resins. But making sure that performance is not compromised is the key…... At Entropy, we ONLY focus on PERFORMANCE SUSTAINABLE materials. No compromises.
[quote="$1"]
In today’s climate of greener fields, bluer sky’s, and clearer water a new, more environmental technology is appearing in the form of a new epoxy resin system specially made for board sports products. The board sports industry has naturally always concerned itself with environmental issues and now from the labs of the world’s leader in board sports epoxy technology comes the first epoxy resin with a significant percentage of sustainable ingredients. “Up to 40% of our systems now contain vegetable based, sustainable ingredients,” says president Greg Loehr. “Based on vegetable oils,” Loehr continues, “these ingredients are fully reactive members of the finished polymer offering flex and elongation characteristics that not only augment the environmental anatomy but will enhance the ride and durability as well.” Initial reaction in their Florida test market has been very favorable. Most manufacturers using the new products have seen little difference in the production performance and a noticeable ride and durability enhancement.
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Cure times? Flip times? What shop temp is best during lam. Does it look like corn? Price? Dude-a-bility? Spelling?
Post cure? Does it stink? Does it yellow? How does it wet out....Long term tests?
Better than other RR products?.....or just green?
Why should I go green if I'm happy with the CE or the KK ?????
Edit....my coments were made for Resin Research but also apply to all other "green resins".
Thanks Ray,
Alway better to have a scientist explain.
Makes it sound so “sciencey” LOL
**
I saw a board that was laminated at the Ventura Sacred Craft exhibit using Surf Sap epoxy. It was way too fresh to thumb test or try to sand. Only one side had been laminated at that point.
I spoke to the guys in the FoamEZ booth where a blank was glassed and as I understand it...
The darker stuff (Super Sap) has the 70% bio-content.
The "Ecologically Sustainable" clear stuff (Surf Sap) isn't as 'green' but has better cosmetic features (clarity) when used over white foam.
The resins reportedly have acceptable working times and sand easily.
I'm all for options when it comes to my material sources and I take most marketing claims with a grain of salt. Hats off to Greg Loehr and Entropy for developing new and better products.
Stingray, my thoughts too:
Cure times? Flip times? What shop temp is best during lam. Does it
look like corn? Price? Dude-a-bility? Spelling?
Post cure? Does it stink? Does it yellow? How does it wet
out…Long term tests?
Better than other RR products?..or just green?
Why should I go green if I’m happy with the CE or the KK ???
Edit…my coments were made for Resin Research but also apply to all
other “green resins”.
I have a couple of gallons of the old RR and I don’t know what to do with it. I only want to use the new KK.
Here’s a thought (ALL CAPS ON PURPOSE): THE BEST THING YOU CAN DO FOR THE ENVIRONMENT IS BUILD DURABLE, NON-DISPOSAL BOARDS!
Duh.
I have boards that are 10 to 15 years old. Patch them up. Keep them out of the sun. Recyle the EPS when their souls go to heaven.
PROPS
There was a Surf Expo this weekend so I'm sure everyone was very busy. I'm looking forward to more posts from the resin people. I don't care that much about where the oil came from to make the product. I care more about the quality of the product and that it's easy to use.
Lot's of Rays in the water.....try not to get us mixed up...
Rey From Entropy is a Science Guy making Resin.
Ray Promer is from Clear Water Glassing. Pro Glasser... Works with Surfding....
Stingray is a backyard guy. (I do work in the chemical industry but I work out in the back..)
And few more Rays swimming around....
OK guys, you took the bait. This was actually written by Mitch Varnes and I posted it. It appeared in the Brevard Business News over 25 years ago. There have been claims by some companies that they are now leading the environmental charge that we’ve been working on for years. With claims of quality resins that are 30% sustainable materials I decided to post this old peice of article just to see what the reaction would be. Fact is we’ve been using sustainables all along. Thanks for all the interest. Fun reading your stuff. Sorry I drew you all in but I thought it would make the point.
Could always use a few more Rays in the water 
For more technical details on the Entropy systems scroll down at the bottom of this link to the FAQ page and download the technical data sheets.
https://www.entropyresins.com/faqs-and-downloads
Also, here’s some shots of Stretch Riedel laminating his shape (Marko Envirofoam blank) with Entropy’s Surf Sap system at the FOAM-EZ live laminating demo at Sacred Craft this past weekend.
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=166486&id=84588502047&ref=mf
Keep in mind, Stretch only has one good arm, so he laminated this board one handed. I’m pretty sure our resin is easy to use if he was able to do it without complaints!
BTW, Greg Tate is right. There are two true ways to make green boards. 1. Make them durable, make them last. 2. Reduce waste when your building them. The rest of it is all smoke and mirrors which is why I’ve rarely brought any of this up…
And I am man enough to issue an appology if I am wrong.
It is
unfortunate that none of this information is easily accessable for those
that truly care about reducing their environmental impact.
I totally agree with the durability statement,
however I beg to differ about the smoke and mirrors part.
There are many more ways to reduce invironmental impact in board construction other than reducing waste.
my apolligy todd i evidently asked the wrong person the question
so it gets back to you then greg
**Glycidyloxy compounds used in epoxy resin systems:
**
well lets here some good honest facts about the product
I think reducing waste and materials is definitely key. But it’s unrealistic to ignore considering the carbon footprint of new materials as they are brought into the cycle. Typically, petrol-based chemicals require more energy and create more waste than bio-based ones. If you’re talking about reducing waste and energy, I would say you’re doing that when you consider using bio-based materials.
Also, petroleum is finite. Cost issue alone, this may be the most important reason for society to look at renewable materials in the long run.
I think the point Greg was making with all this is that the idea of using sustainable materials is nothing new. I would agree with that and stated so previously. Many chemical industries have been using sustainably sourced materials already, including the resin industry. But the difference now is that there are companies out there pushing the limits of what was not possible before. In the resin world, it’s trying to maximize sustainability and mechanical performance simultaneously.
I do believe there are plenty folks out there trying to play the smoke and mirrors game, and in the beginning it may be tough to weed out the BS from the real players. I think looking to 3rd party validation is important in doing so. Creating federal and international standards will also be key. It’s a renaissance in green technologies right now, and I’d like to believe that we’ll all be better off for it. We need to reason soundly, and question thoughtfully. Casting general accusations is a dangerous game.
so whats this theres two stonewallers
**are you telling me the health issue is not important???
**
“There are many more ways to reduce environmental impact in board
construction other than reducing waste.”
Not many. Pretty much all you’ve got is the blank, glass and resin. Fins, boxes/plugs and leashes and wax. Even going with all “sustainable” options in all those areas still has a pretty negligible impact overall.
The biggest contributor to Greenhouse gases is actually in driving your car to go surfing. If you want to make a big immediate impact that’s the first area where the low-hanging “sustainable” fruit are hanging.
Not to say more bio-based materials isn’t worth pursuing, just that there are diminishing returns to be had. Not to mention the market is a tough one to break into. Just look at Ice9 and Biofoam, both viable products, but struggled to gain a foothold.
Seems Urethane-based resins have come around a few times as an alternative to poly/epoxy but always seem to fade away for whatever reason. AST and ResinX come to mind. Both seem(ed) to have loyal market followings.
More durable boards ARE the best approach at this point, regardless of what they are made of.
Huie, have you looked up the MSDS on Resin Research resin, may be some info there for you -
http://www.resinresearch.net/id7.html
I think I see where you’re going with the sensitization issue though. Sucks for sure.