Resin Research Bio Green Tech

General Discussion
41

Greg,

In hindsight, your “announcement” did seem kinda’ out of left field, considering it came on the heels of a very well received release of Kwik Kick, which is plenty enviro-friendly for me.

But if we’re on the topic of “what’s next” from Resin Research, how about a less viscous hot-coat and/or gloss formula that compliments a kwik kick lam? Something UV Cure like Zerovoc (Urethane/Epoxy blend?). As a backyarder, I don’t care if it costs more, especially hot-coat/gloss where you are using much less resin than on a lam. KK for the lams, so you can dark tint to your heart’s content, and UV Cure for the Hot/Gloss, which is always clear anyway.

Just my .02.

42

Huie,

We don’t use those.  Some of those are VERY toxic.  If you’ve run across some of the older ones you probably had health issues from them.  

43

Huie,

Thought I give your question some time … study.  In the old days (50’s - 70’s) one of the first thinners used for epoxy was a chemical called cresyl glycidyl ether.  Friggen TOXIC!!  This was mostly used in the marine industry and it was mixed into the resin side.  A few years later this was replaced by alkyl glycidal ether which is by comparison pretty mild stuff.  Add to that the hardener side in those days mostly consisted of unmodified triethylenetetramine or diethylenetetramine  These two in their unmodified state are incredibly nasty.  Now also back in those days they would occasionally modify these two with phenol and formaldehyde which made the nastiness of the unmodifieds even worse!  Although these chemicals are still on the market they’ve lost the market share they once enjoyed because there are now many systems that have vastly reduced toxicity.  

44

The point I’m trying to make was very evident in the original article in BBN.  The article went on to talk about zero VOC’s, recycling foam waste, elimination of clean up solvents, reduction of waste, and dramatic reduction of resin use. These were all chemicals and techniques that we pioneered in the mid to late 80’s.  

In the late 90’s I wrote an article which appeared in Surfer and Longboard.  That article itemized the waste and compared chemistry, air emissions, production technique and longevity.  That article was the blueprint to save the surfboard industry over 30% in material costs. Now you would think that I might get a thank you.  But instead I was attacked for suggesting a change that might be something admirable to at least look at.  An entire industry went for the throat.  Without a Swaylocks to post my view … argue my side … well, it was rough.  From that point on I have been very careful about talking about environmentalism … even if we were the ones that pioneered the whole thing. 

In 2006 we produced a video in conjunction with Carl Ackerman Productions called Epoxy 101 which showed how to produce surfboards using the methods, chemistry and techniques we developed over the three decades.  I’m just stating here for the record that others are today going over trails which we blazed long ago and claiming that this is groundbreaking work. I agree that it is … or was when we did it.

I congratulate anyone who has the foresight to do forward thinking work.  I like the fact that others today will join us in the cause which we worked so hard at for so long.

 

45

We’ll have a lower viscosity KK next fall … in time for winter when viscosity goes up.  But everyone I know is thrilled with the current formulation for hot coats.  I think you need to get the resin on and spread a bit faster.  Gloss formula is also something we’re working on.

46

I think reducing waste and materials is definitely key. But it's unrealistic to ignore considering the carbon footprint of new materials as they are brought into the cycle. Typically, petrol-based chemicals require more energy and create more waste than bio-based ones. If you're talking about reducing waste and energy, I would say you're doing that when you consider using bio-based materials.

**When you reduce waste by 2/3rds, the way we did, that is HUGE.  Way more of an impact than anything else we ever did.  The techniques we developed brought resin use down from 128 ounces per board to 40. We've actually done Timberflex boards with 27. Timberflex is by far the greenest tech on the surfboard scene.  As far vegetable based requiring more energy, this is not always true ... at all.  Oil is a vegetable based resource no matter if it comes from corn, timber, cane or is pumped from the ground.  Economics are generally the issue in determining which is used and pumped oil is generally cheaper than farmed.  IMHO pumped is sold too cheap and burning it for energy is shortsighted. The other issue about farmed is it can cut into food supply and this is something which is also finite.  Fields which should be left fallow are today being used for the production of corn oil for energy.  We'll see what effect that may have in the long run but the dust bowl of the 20's and 30's was a very real lesson on over production of farm land.**

Also, petroleum is finite. Cost issue alone, this may be the most important reason for society to look at renewable materials in the long run.

**I agree but farming fertile land is also finite.**

I think the point Greg was making with all this is that the idea of using sustainable materials is nothing new. I would agree with that and stated so previously. Many chemical industries have been using sustainably sourced materials already, including the resin industry. But the difference now is that there are companies out there pushing the limits of what was not possible before. In the resin world, it's trying to maximize sustainability and mechanical performance simultaneously.

**I agree, something we've done for decades.  Nice that someone else understands.**

I do believe there are plenty folks out there trying to play the smoke and mirrors game, and in the beginning it may be tough to weed out the BS from the real players. I think looking to 3rd party validation is important in doing so. Creating federal and international standards will also be key. It's a renaissance in green technologies right now, and I'd like to believe that we'll all be better off for it. We need to reason soundly, and question thoughtfully. Casting general accusations is a dangerous game.

**I agree again.  I don't think anyone has cast any accusations though**.

47

 

I don’t really have any problems with KK hot coats, but I was just thinking a UV cure for this stage would be even faster and maybe even prevent some of the drips that form on the rails unless you babysit the hotcoat. Saving more time lamming with KK isn’t really an issue because you are working while it’s curing. By the time you’ve tucked the laps and cleaned everything up, the board is nearly ready to flip (good).

But with hotcoats and glosscoats, the labor is literally a minute or two with the chip-brush, then you are done and waiting for the cure. In the 4-5 boards I’ve done with KK, all at room temp (70F) indoors, I have had to wait 1.5 hours to flip hot/gloss coats. Could save a few hours here (at least for us folks that glass in cooler temps) with a UV cure.

As a side note, a UV cure would also be great for quick ding repairs.

Anyway, these aren’t urgent requests, just “would be nice to have” and “I would pay more if…”

48

UV cures we’ve worked on don’t sand well.  Makes for a bad hot coat.  I’d rather wait an hour than sand an hour. UV cure is also limited in labels, fin boxes, colors, glass ons, etc.  We’ve looked close at this.  We feel it’s too limited as a product. And yes, you’d pay more because the chemistry is expensive.  And it is available from Wahoo.  We do have the technology but just aren’t interested in marketing that one at this time. Again, Wahoo’s doing it, why do we need to?  Not a big enough market for two players …

Colder climates are always an issue with building boards.  X-55 can help with that.

49

This might not be the place for this question, but are the amounts used the same for KK as for the “old” 2000? Can I use the guidelines given years ago in the “Epoxy Primer” thread?

ps whenever I watch videos of people glassing boards with polyester and you see the resin just draining off the rails I’m appalled.

50

I’ve always been appalled by that too.  Always was told that that was the correct way to glass.  I think of it as mid 20th century mentality. Worked with a guy at Segway who was doing SUP’s with a gallon a side.  I did one with half that and after I left he told Ken I didn’t know what I was doing.  Ken thought the boards looked the same except for the 50 bucks on the floor under his rack.  The guy wouldn’t change.  He was fired a couple weeks later. 

Yea, I use the same amounts exactly.

51

Here is a quick link to primary literature (top google hit, by the way); a toxicology review on glycidyloxys in general. Take this abstract with a grain of salt as its rather old, and was published by Shell, who at the time was a major supplier of resin chemicals. But, point here is that you’ll probably need to do some research on the specific chemical name rather than the general class of chemicals if you want detailed info.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1410652

When in doubt…always use caution and proper safety equipment.

52

**thanks for that greg    i guess it was the boatbuilding in the eightys that fixed me up **

53

Greg, it’s kinda funny to see people finally waking up to what’s been going on here for a long time.  At our last UF alumni contest, out came one yellowed Loehr epoxy thruster from '88 that still rode like a champ.  Good stuff. 

54

this thread would be better in the industry section!

55

 

**In the late 90's I wrote an article which appeared in Surfer and Longboard.  That article itemized the waste and compared chemistry, air emissions, production technique and longevity.  That article was the blueprint to save the surfboard industry over 30% in material costs. Now you would think that I might get a thank you.  **

Thanks Greg! No doubt, epoxy board builders are all benefitting from your groundwork. Also goes for many other craftsmen too long to list. This is why sources like Sways and other literature exist....so thanks to Sways as well...

**But instead I was attacked for suggesting a change that might be something admirable to at least look at.  An entire industry went for the throat.  Without a Swaylocks to post my view ... argue my side .... well, it was rough.  **

Yes, and I hope looking at sustainable or renewable materials is just as admirable too. In general we shouldn't ever consider one thing to be the end all solution....otherwise we'd still be riding solid wooden planks of wood.....wait...some still do :) 

**From that point on I have been very careful about talking about environmentalism ... even if we were the ones that pioneered the whole thing. **

Semantics is where environmentalism debate usually forms. "Eco-friendly", "green", "enviro-friendly" get tossed around all the time, but can apply to many things. Yes, switching from a high VOC resin to a low VOC resin is definitely eco-friendly.  I like to focus on sustainability, renewability, or recyclability of a material as related to carbon footprint... to me it means looking at the sources of your material; how did it get here and can it be reused for another purpose? Meanwhile consider its impact from an input (energy) and output (waste) persepective. Is it greater or less than what's out there? Is there room for improvement? Sure this may apply to both petrol or plant based sources, but plant based ones have lots to contribute still, and I'm excited to see what will come out of the recent surge of attention in this area. Of course considering sustainable farming and land use as well as energy required should be part of the equation when doing so.......

**In 2006 we produced a video in conjunction with Carl Ackerman Productions called Epoxy 101 which showed how to produce surfboards using the methods, chemistry and techniques we developed over the three decades.  I'm just stating here for the record that others are today going over trails which we blazed long ago and claiming that this is groundbreaking work. I agree that it is .... or was when we did it.**

This happens all the time in many fields. Medicine, Chemistry, Math, Physics, Biology. Sometimes a resurgence in attention is what it takes to get old ideas resurfaced and applied again. But maybe this time, more people are paying attention! Anyway, taking that body of knowledge and moving forward is just what I think we are all doing here....Progress!

 

56

Hello Rey from Entropy...you never answered my questions.....

I'm not a tree hugger. I started recyling back in the 80's because Beer cans were worth money. I drive a car that gets 30 mpg because it makes sense. I'm a RR customer. I'm a good glasser not a fast glasser. Does your product yellow? Any Long term tests?

 

Cure times? Flip times? What shop temp is best during lam. Does it look like corn? Price? Dude-a-bility? Spelling?

 Post cure? Does it stink?  Does it yellow? How does it wet out....Long term tests?

Better than other RR products?.....or just green?

Why should I go green if I'm happy with the CE or the KK ?????

Edit....my coments were made for Resin Research but also apply to all other "green resins".

Thank you

Stingray

 

P.S.

Does it yellow?...Long term tests?

57

Ahhh longevity … the first consideration.  One thing I always liked about the boards I built from epoxy was performance longevity.  Hated that the polys I built would go dead in two months. Thanks.

58

Yea mate … truly sorry for what they did to you.  I used some of that stuff early on and then thanks to a couple of old formulator guys in FL began to understand that it didn’t have to be that way.  Clark hammered me hard because of that stuff claiming that that was what I was selling.  So much misinformation from the guilty back then.  I can truly say that the internet has allowed for communication and the outing of those who’ve made huge profits selling poison.

59

What a great piss up! THIS is what this site is all about. If you go back and re-read the comments, there’s a lot of sh#$ going on. We need to provoke thought and sometimes arguments to stimulate growth. The bottom line is WE ARE ALL INDEBTED to this exchange. Growth is what it’s all about.

 

ps. How much pine pitch is available in the world? I’d rather see forests sustained than exploited. I’m not alleging that epoxy is a culprit to this, but maybe there are better choices. Call me a hypocrite because I make my living as a woodworker but we need our raw resources to stay that way. Responsible use is the key and I think that’s what we are all moving towards. Thank you Greg Loehr, and thanks to Entropy! Keep it up!

60

Thanks for the note smsrfr.  As we race towards 9 billion it will be interesting to see what happens with all of this.  I fear that work like this will eventually be shoved aside and all polymers will be forced into petro chem because of food supply demand and shortage of farmland through soil depletion. What I wrote about renewables I hope some people got.  Renewable doesn’t mean it’s not finite.  Both farmed and pumped are.

9 billion humans is supposed to be the tipping point when we begin to deplete the biosphere on a global scale, i.e. depletion of natural resources necessary for human habitation of the planet. Depletion of farmland, fisheries, energy, etc. Predictions are for food shortages, water shortages, energy shortages, etc.  Less than 20 years before this is reality and at that point who knows.  War most likely as the haves fend of the have nots.  Growth of deserts, depletion of soil, elimination of species, elimination of fisheries, war for energy.  

Here in the US, the west is almost run through it’s water resources which finally convinced LA to enact water restrictions … what already??? The rest of the nation has had water restriction for decades.  Not LA!!  Central Valley is cutting down fruit trees so the LA basin can have lawns and pools.  The farmers there want to destroy the fisheries by overtaxing the environment and taking the water they need because the LA basin has out bid them for water rights.  The war there is on and the loser will be the environment.  We’re really f#&king up here worldwide.  

This could all be averted through renewable energy and better management of that energy. 90% of all petro chemicals pumped are burned for energy. A significant amount of farmed are now as well. Meanwhile there’s enough energy in east CA, AZ and NM to power the entire nation FOREVER!! Renewable energy solves almost all problems. Energy, water, farming, national security, etc, etc, etc.  But right wing politics are concerned about government spending at a time when we desperately need to spend on THIS ISSUE!!  I could go on … and on … and on… but shouldn’t.  You know, sometimes surfboards don’t seem very important.  Sorry for the rant.