resistance to change...why

General Discussion
1

This is sort of an offshoot of stuff that has been brought up in other recent threads regarding disposable boards.

Why is it that the industry is so resistant to any kind of change? I have brought up the fact that i have heard several shapers tell me that “we dont want boards to last”…why? If the board lasts longer and is a higher quality product then charge more.

Am i missing something? Would it kill the surfindustry if boards lasted longer?

Many here on Swaylocks including myself use RR epoxy and can see the benefits and yet almost no major manufacturers seem to be interested at all in any of the newer materials available.

Is there no demand? Surftechs seem to be doing quite well and the same shapers that tell me they dont want boards to last are the same ones that tell me their customers are asking for a custom surftech type board.

2
Quote:

…several shapers tell me that “we dont want boards to last”…why?

It’s a stupid opinion based (wrongly) on wanting to sell more boards.

3

I would suspect that the vast majority of surfers dont even realize that boards can be made to last longer. For a long time I thought that if you got a year and a half out of a board that was good. As I got older and understood more about board construction( because I chose to learn) I ordered my boards with heavier cloth. The shaper always tried to fight me on it but in the end I got what I wanted.

I guess what I’m saying is that it could be a simple matter of lack of education by the vast majority.

What do you guys think?

Terry

Also, very few surfers care to know how their boards are made so long as they surf well. Am I wrong on this also?

4

I agree -

Most surfers I know don’t have much of an idea - or a care, for that matter - how their boards are constructed. I didn’t know either, until I chose to learn. It’s funny to see how ignorant I was.

If they surf well, they’re happy. Popouts and poorly glassed boards will do fine as long as the customers are happy for that first season after purchase. Just as you said, it seems that 1.5 years is now an acceptable period of depreciation.

I was happy too. Now that I’ve ‘looked under the hood’ I want to get more out of my boards, so I’m making my own.

:slight_smile:

5

its a damn shame that boards can only stand the test of an initial season. I have a generic modern longboard, 9’2. Its deck has alot of heel dings, and alot of pressure dings, hardly a year old, and already showin flex cracks,I guess thats why im so interested in makin my own boards, cause then i wont have anyone to blame but myself. My ol lady has a 8’6 bob miller, it too is just over a year old, and has MANY flex cracks in the boards… on a seperate note, whats the best way to be rid of those? Its my understanding that there are alot of new construction materials that may never see their way to the shops just to keep the depreciation up, but thats not everyone, specially some of the good hearted folks that frequent here. Thanks in advance for the info, and stay stoked everyone- Caleb

6

Yes most customers dont know very much about the construction or design of their boards. Seems some shapers prefer it that way…why im not sure. Seems only select few will build a stronger board. Greg L, Bert, are some of the few.

I can see the benefits of Epoxy on my first attempt at it. 9’0" high performance shape 4+4 deck 4 bottom on superblue is as strong as other poly boards glassed with 6+4.

its unlikely ill go back to poly for my personal boards. The higher resale value alone makes it worthwhile for me.

7 
Howzit J.Troy, I think we're overlooking the fact that a lot of boards would last longer if surfers took better care of their equipment. I tell people to check their boards after every go out for any dings, cracks, shatters and to either fix them immediately or at least put a sticker over the ding til it can be repaired. I get a jolt when ever I see a board I did last 3 or 4 years. When a customer picks up a board I give them a few stickers just in case. Another thing is the guy who drives around all summer long on the north shore with his board or boards on his car even though it won't get in the water for about 3 months. Looks like we're gonna get an eary NW swell come Monday or Tuesday. Aloha, Kokua
8

i have always found this a problem… i want to make the best for my customers but most cannot see the immediate difference or warrented charges in a quality board. the 15-25 market which makes up a reasonable slice of my market want a disposable product!.. i find it hard to get stronger materials… we cannot get anyone to import resin resurch epoxy,i cannot get enough strong blanks as the mainstream want the lighter softer ones…also high performance shortboards rely on flex for thier optimum output and 6x6x6 puts a dampener on that!..its very difficult to enforce curing too. i need the customer to pickup the board asap to maintain my cashflow… and the buggers will ride it even if you tell them to wait 1 more week etc…

9
Quote:

Howzit J.Troy, I think we’re overlooking the fact that a lot of boards would last longer if surfers took better care of their equipment. I tell people to check their boards after every go out for any dings, cracks, shatters and to either fix them immediately or at least put a sticker over the ding til it can be repaired. I get a jolt when ever I see a board I did last 3 or 4 years. When a customer picks up a board I give them a few stickers just in case. Another thing is the guy who drives around all summer long on the north shore with his board or boards on his car even though it won’t get in the water for about 3 months. Looks like we’re gonna get an eary NW swell come Monday or Tuesday. Aloha, Kokua

This is true, though i know many people who are ding magnets…who walk around with their board and think that only the front half exists when walking around corners. Others who seem to ding or dent their board on a daily basis. these guys would benefit from a stronger board.

10

What you are saying is that lightweight ‘high performance’ boards are designed to crack up and snap. It is possible to produce boards which are lightweight, flexible, and strong, but not with foam and fibreglass. What a pity that the surf industry has promoted this ‘disposable’ foam board technology to the point where it is seen as ‘manly’ to snap an entire quiver during a surf trip, thus helping to turn the earth into a toxic waste dump.

11

I think the reasons are pretty straightforward.Surfers want hand shaped boards because any other method is percieved as a “Popout”.I have access to the Gulfstream Aerospace Manufacturing Plant atr times, and believe me they have the technology out there to build an almost indestructable board.The problem is that the cores (shaped blanks) have to be consistant to a close tolerance and put in to a mold that matches the blank.So in surfers terminolgy it would be a “Popout”.The stuff I am speaking of is far ahead of Surf Tech’s technology which is outdated anyway.So…if we want handshaped boards we have to go the old way.As for epoxy I have been there and done that…it’s better in some ways but not enough to make a differance.The bottom line on Epoxy is that it tends to be toxic and all the big glass shops know it along with my Doctor because I am now sensitized to it.Of course that statement may be cause for discussion (Or ranting and raving) but what the heck it’s Swaylocks and we are open to ideas and opinions.I hope.

12

i went with a friend looking for his new board the other day.this friend has been surfing for at least 20 yrs is a longtime local at a really classic surf spot and he knew very ,very little about surfboards!! I couldn’t believe how clueless he REALLY was!! I am a kneerider and i know 10 times about surfboards construction and what makes a board good for what surf he will be riding. I say very, very few surfers know SH*T !! I would go as far to say maybe 5% know much at all.They know what a surfer wears and how he talks though…*What was really funny was that his decision on what board to purchase was the board that was made by a local!!The fricken STICKER!!!All this from a heavy local!! hahahaha

13
Quote:

I think the reasons are pretty straightforward.Surfers want hand shaped boards because any other method is percieved as a “Popout”.I have access to the Gulfstream Aerospace Manufacturing Plant atr times, and believe me they have the technology out there to build an almost indestructable board.The problem is that the cores (shaped blanks) have to be consistant to a close tolerance and put in to a mold that matches the blank.So in surfers terminolgy it would be a “Popout”.The stuff I am speaking of is far ahead of Surf Tech’s technology which is outdated anyway.So…if we want handshaped boards we have to go the old way.As for epoxy I have been there and done that…it’s better in some ways but not enough to make a differance.The bottom line on Epoxy is that it tends to be toxic and all the big glass shops know it along with my Doctor because I am now sensitized to it.Of course that statement may be cause for discussion (Or ranting and raving) but what the heck it’s Swaylocks and we are open to ideas and opinions.I hope.

So its an uneducated “perception” of a popout that stirs up resistance.

I wonder how many surfers can actually tell the riding difference between a polyester, handshaped epoxy, and a popout? Id like to see a blind test to find out.

Also it seems that poly is actually more toxic…at least from looking at the MSDS theres some heavy chemicals in poly.

Looking at epoxy it seems the only risk is skin sensitisation and guys like Bert and Greg as well as many others seem to be doing fine with Epoxy.

In my opinion I dont think surboard design will progress much more with the current materials and construction.

14

My experience with Surftech boards are that they have great product life. I’ve owned a couple for over four years and sold them in great shape regaining 80% of my initial investment. My experience with Stewart, Eaton and Other polyester build boards got pressure dinged or stress fractures after the first session.

15

SAME JIVE…I got bpards that are 30 years old ,they are polyester…all the light ones are gone.the lighter and lighter guys rape pillage and burn the equiptment in an abusive relationship gets destroyed… epoxy into a rock gets a ding- an unrepaired or poorly repaired wave riding tool is gone in time …in my book…AMERICAN children are geneticly bred to wreck toys {poor kids take care their toys and hand em down}…if they last past noon on xmas morning they were probobly a tonka truck.Make a strong board it will last it lasts longer /// dont use it at all it will last even longer.You like EEEEpoxy swell…You like STYRO …bitchin…make it light good luck…it may not be strong enough to survive abuse ,when its gone …I’ll loan one of mine … ambrose … dont loose it to the rocks or I’ll tell yor mom you wrecked my board

16

Howzit J. Troy.You are right in some ways but I feel that surfboard “design” will progress as a result of the demand for hand shaped boards.Surfboard construction will probably stay where it is because there is no current technology improvements in hand layup systems.Ambrose nailed it as usual.I am not going to get in to the epoxy versus polyester argument because it is mute point. RB

17

an interesting story form last week …

this guy comes in wants to order an 8’-6" i say 10 months 1250.00 …

hes devasted , he had just got a custom and hated it , he had wanted one of mine before but couldnt wait , so he got one somehwere else, now hes was faced with the prospect of riding it for the next 10 months…i wouldnt take it as a trade coz it was a mutant…

i couldnt onsell it with a clean conscience…coz it was a mixmatch of variables…

i said i heard someone had a second hand 8’-6" of mine for sale…

he goes off and buys it …he came in the other day said he loved it …

ok so wheres this going???

he paid 950.00 for the secondhand board but it was 8 years old , when i made it back then i sold it for 800.00 ,new…hows that for keeping its value…

none of my boards are moulded , all custom …epoxy,eps,timber,fibreglass…

i know we dont want a polyester v epoxy debate…im not really going there…

but dave made a point…

when i first started doing epoxy boards not one solitary person in the surfboard industry was willing to source any products for me …

in fact one of my blank/resin suppliers said if he dealt in eps and epoxy his blank supplier would stop supplying him blanks…so to get me new materials would jeopardise his business…

so it ends up i find aircraft builders , boat industry, and building industries to supply me with what i need …as time went on and crew became interested in what i was doing , they hit the same brick walls material wise…

my problem was i couldnt justify making it easy for others to follow what i did , so i wasnt handing out names and addresses…

to many people stand to lose if boards are stronger…

those people have a controlling influence on the supply lines…

the only person i deal with in the surfboard industry is the guy i buy plugs from…

and a few fin boxes from another clown…who has a whole audience laughing at him now…

there was a comment about people leaving there boards in there car for 3 months over summer…

theres one board in my car now has been in there for the last 7 years , only comes out if i need my van for another job …other wise they stay in there permanantly…

epoxy has high heat distortion temperature…

so it wont change shape when it gets hot…eps sustains no long term damage if it gets wet or hit by the sun …look at craypot bouys…

p/u just decays with water and sunlight…

i hear people say , o but if you get eps water logged there stuffed…

that is the only bad thing anyone could say against it …

well one of my shorties ive ridden for almost 6 years now /december 98…

its been fully water logged 3 times , but now its still as light as the day i made it…

just blow the water out…

i can tell you all its plain and simple economics …

it takes a little more effort to produce a board that is built to last…

to many people just wanna make easy money and couldnt give a rats , then there are others who really do wanna make better boards but the industry is against them …

now the shoe is on the other foot , i hear alot of complaints about people not making money building polyester boards …

now whos really putting in more effort???

not me …

ok so it probably did turn into a poly v epoxy thing…

you guys wanna know what i pay for a blank???

you pay about 70.00 aud for a standard short board blank, i pay 27.50 including gst…and it comes in a block of 6 perfectly profiled blanks…

next time the foam truck comes ill take some photos …its to easy…

sorry to say theres a few guys at the top of the food chain , controling what the rest of us get to eat…so there own appetite can be satisfied…

and on top of that they waffle propaganda about how dangerous some foods are, and how you should only use there stuff…

sorry if this post seems a little firm …

but i feel sorry coz theres so many crew doing it the hard way…

crew seem to think that if a board lasts longer they wont get as much business…

that is so wrong…

kid buys a cheap board , breaks it, gives up surfing…

thats one scenario…he could have stayed surfing and kept buying boards…

when i was building conventional boards only , the average guy gets a new board every 18 months …

by that time there looking pretty sad…

so he trades his old board in (if its still in one peice) he now has another board …18 months later same thing…

now what happens , guys board lasts …but he normally spends x amount on boards every year…he doesnt have to trade in coz his board is still good , so he gets a fish, or a gun,a longboard maybe…

in 18 months same thing…so hes building up a quiver…

but in the mean time his mates wanna get one as well…

so your still servicing your customers its win win …except for the guy down the road who has to sledge you because hes not getting as many orders…

thats the way its happened/happening for me…

regards

BERT

o pics try doing this with a polyester board…

took these pics today…

9 year old board/trampoline…

the foam block has 1" increments marked on it…

18

I agree with you that epoxy has some advantages but the advantages are fairly minor.OK …on a scale of 1-10(from a strength pespective) lets call a poly board 5…an epoxy hand layup 5 1/2…Surftech 7.The board I speak of using advanced aircraft technology would be around 9 presuming 10 is impossible.The problem is it would be a “popout” in surf jargon…plus it would be very expensive,so it is going to be no sell.Personally I have no problems with popouts,its just that we as surfers live in a culture that is unique.What other sport offers custom tools at a price one can afford?Thats what is cool about surfing.OK…I guess I got in to the epoxy argument but I have some knowledge on the subject(although I am not an expert like Greg).There was a big glass shop in Florida (Spectrum) that jumped on the epoxy thing and went in to fairly large scale mass production.They plugged away for a couple of years and finally figured out that the boards were not that much better.They still snapped,dinged,sucked water and dented just like a poly board.Outside of that the epoxy laminator came down with blood cancer resulting in a lawsuit that was settled out of court.I don’t know all of the details on this…the guy was treated and is OK.I like what Ambrose said in his post about the “rocks”.It sums it up fairly neatly. RB

19

Whats up Roger-- hows your summer been ?

As far as epoxy I have to agree about the toxicity, actully thats one of the many problems I have with the major mags, when they’re touting the virtues of epoxy and how its so healthy regaurding fumes they always neglect to mention how harmful it is to come into contact with,and how many laminators have gotten sick from exposure to it.

Hows your U.V. mission going? got a hold of a dental cure light you should see my six channels now – its a cakewalk

20

Howdy S.A.Good to hear from you.As far as UV stuff goes you are the Guru.Hopefully you will get back to posting more.I have been restoring antiques and pretty much shut down my surfboard stuff.Luckily I know lots of folks that have glass shops and they take pity on me when I feel the craving to build a board or two.First thing I hear is"Here comes that Cranky old Geezer Again" but we have fun.The youngsters get off on watching me f##k up because I aint as good as I Used to be.As you know you almost have to be in it every day to keep your chops up. RB